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fstringham
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: E-MAG wiring Z13-8 |
 |
|
Bob and others
I have wired my aircraft (rv7A) according to the scheme Z13-8. I sure hate
to rewire .....so after meeting with the good folks from E-mag is the Z13-8
no longer viable or am I still OK to go with it!
Thanks for all your efforts in behalf of we experimenters.
Frank (at) SGU RV7A 95% DONE 120% TO GO
| Quote: | From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
To: "Brad Dement" <info(at)emagair.com>
Subject: Re: E-MAG wiring
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:09:33 -0600
<nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Brad,
I note that it has been about 18 months since we last "talked".
I've been trying to plan a trip to your neck of the woods
so we can meet personally. I was at OSH this past year but
had to make it a quick in-and-out to support the forums I'd
signed up for . . . my dad was in his last days in Medicine Lodge,
KS and I didn't have time for socializing.
In any case, I'd like to take this opportunity to renew our
acquaintance to update myself on the progress of your efforts
over the past year and a half. I also need to expand
my understanding of your products so that I don't offer
poor advise when publishing words and drawings that speak
of e-Mag devices.
After adding e-Mag products to our electrical system architecture
drawings over a year ago, I put on my "systems integrator"
hat for certified aircraft and deduced that from the
pilot's perspective, it's useful to test the systems ability
to run self powered during preflight. From both a builder's
and pilot's perspectives, it's useful to minimize the number
of switches on the panel.
I crafted a suggested wiring diagram which was published
as our Figure Z-33 and excerpted in one or more of the
full-up aircraft drawings. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z33K.pdf
In this drawing you can see that three-position, progressive
transfer switches are incorporated to have an OFF position
that grounds the RED control lead and breaks power to the
ORN lead from the battery bus.
The mid position removes the ground from the control lead
but does not apply power. The upper position leaves the
control lead ungrounded and adds bus power to the system.
The thought was that by means of logical positioning of
switches a pilot could demonstrate that a P-Mag would run
self-powered during a preflight run-up.
A third maintenance switch was necessary to take advantage
of built-in timing functions. A switch under the cowl
would offer a means by which the e-mag/p-mag could be
powered up for timing leaving the rest of the aircraft
'cold'.
Here are the Figure Z-33 notes that accompany the wiring
diagram in the AeroElectric Connection.
--------begin excerpt-------
Figure Z-33 P-Mag Maintenance Mode and Hand
Propping Option. E-Mags and P-Mags are a unique
product in that as the factory points out, have TWO
switchable functionsPower and control. Their installation
manuals suggest separate switches but in a quest for the
minimalist panel, I crafted the drawing for P-Mags in Figure
Z-33 which is repeated in Figure Z-13/8.
. . . now, be aware that the sequence of switching functions
depicted have been commented on by the good folks at EMagair
suggesting that switch movements should bring
power on first followed by activating the magneto.
My wiring diagram shows the opposite sequence, ignition
"active" first followed by supporting power. The reason is
quite simple. There are separate but divergent interests in
the ownership and operation of the p-mag:
(1) When sitting at the end of the runway doing a pre-flight,
the PILOT'S interest is "are the built in alternators for each
P-Mag functioning?" By wiring as I've suggested, moving
the switch from full up to the mid position deprives a P-Mag
of electrical support and (if the run-up RPMS are high
enough), the ignition will not falter when dropped to the mid
position. Of course, the opposite ignition needs to be
completely OFF at this time.
Pre-flight test sequence would be:
RUN-UP RPM . . . . . Set
L-IGN Switch . . . . . . . OFF
R-IGN Switch . . . . . . . ON but no BAT (mid position)
Note engine does not falter
L-IGN Switch . . . . . . . ON but no BAT (mid position)
R-IGN Switch . . . . . . . OFF
Note engine does not falter
Both IGN Switches . . . . BAT
(2) A secondary interest is what might be called the
maintenance mode for ground ops where the mechanic
wants to have the systems powered but inactive for using a
P-mag's built-in timing features -OR- for hand propping the
engine where again, it's useful to be able to hear the timing
buzzer.
In this mode, you MUST have battery power available to the
P-Mags even when in the inactive state. The diagram
shows a third switch (accessible through the oil check/
filler door?) that places temporary power on both ignitions
while leaving absolute control over activity in the hands of
whoever has access to pilot's controls on the panel.
If one chooses this architecture, then a light on the panel
should be included to alert the pilot should the switch be left
in the maintenance position. Not a big risk from a fight
operations and safety perspective but it WOULD run the
battery down.
This figure adds a switch to allow powering up the e-Mag/p-Mag
product while leaving it de-activated. This feature
activates the built in aural timing buzzer needed for timing
the ignition system -AND- for proper pre-positioning the
prop for hand-propping the engine.
--- end of excerpt ----
I've been told via the 'grapevine' that operating the
p-Mag in the manner suggested has some issues with respect
to product performance. Specifically that if power is
removed from a p-Mag and then replaced that the processor
wanders into the weeds and upsets the system's timing.
Understand my friend that I was in no way trying to do
an end-run on you . . . it seemed that the wiring/operating
scheme I was suggesting covered some bases that I would
be required to address with systems wieners, test pilots
and DERs should I be tasked with qualifying your product
onto a type certificated aircraft.
If indeed it is a bad thing to remove and then replace
power on a p-Mag while it's operating, then I'm mystified.
Irrespective of the aircraft's electrical architecture,
DO-160 suggests we design our products to gracefully
recover from a power interruption . . . if the
'grapevine' stories are accurate, then the p-Mag would
not fair well in a DO-160 investigation.
If the internal alternator is poised to pick up the load
during a power outage I'm further mystified as to why
a p-Mag would even be aware of bus power interruptions.
The spirit and intent of the proposed pre-flight test
was to demonstrate that the p-Mag was ready, willing
and able to run if the bus goes down. I would expect
the processor in a running p-Mag to be oblivious
of whether or not bus power was present.
I confess that my assumptions about functionality
of your product were being filtered through the logic
used to craft products for the TC aircraft world and
I may have stubbed my toe by not clearing this idea
with you. I'd be pleased to understand the true
nature of the beast with a goal of offering our
collective customers the best we know how to do in
crafting an owner built and maintained aircraft.
I still want to visit your facilities. I also
need to drop into George Braley's place in
southern OK. I might just take a couple days pretty
soon and make this trip happen. I've been 'retired'
from Beech for about two months . . . I've done more
new design work the past 6 weeks than I've done the
past 6-years! Problem is that what I thought was going
to be a 20 hr/wk retirement activity has turned into
a more-than-full-time job. I've told my principal
that I can do this for awhile . . . but I've have
some fun things that need to happen pretty soon too.
It would also be helpful if you could give me a
engineer's narrative of field problems with e-mag
products in the field. Folks are asking me about them
and I have to confess ignorance in the matter. Further,
if there's anything in my bag-of-tricks that might
be helpful in your endeavors, I can make you a really
great deal. I've written several times that the e-Mag
products promise to be the next great thing in ignition
systems for light aircraft. I'd be pleased to be of
assistance for making that hopeful assertion a
demonstrable reality.
Kindest regards,
Bob . . .
|
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by
today!
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_OctHMtagline
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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fstringham
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: E-MAG wiring Z13-8 |
|
|
Bob and others
I have wired my aircraft (rv7A) according to the scheme Z13-8. I sure hate
to rewire .....so after meeting with the good folks from E-mag is the Z13-8
no longer viable or am I still OK to go with it!
Thanks for all your efforts in behalf of we experimenters.
Frank (at) SGU RV7A 95% DONE 120% TO GO
ps. have problems with the old computer so if you get this twice.....sorry
| Quote: | From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
To: "Brad Dement" <info(at)emagair.com>
Subject: Re: E-MAG wiring
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:09:33 -0600
<nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Brad,
I note that it has been about 18 months since we last "talked".
I've been trying to plan a trip to your neck of the woods
so we can meet personally. I was at OSH this past year but
had to make it a quick in-and-out to support the forums I'd
signed up for . . . my dad was in his last days in Medicine Lodge,
KS and I didn't have time for socializing.
In any case, I'd like to take this opportunity to renew our
acquaintance to update myself on the progress of your efforts
over the past year and a half. I also need to expand
my understanding of your products so that I don't offer
poor advise when publishing words and drawings that speak
of e-Mag devices.
After adding e-Mag products to our electrical system architecture
drawings over a year ago, I put on my "systems integrator"
hat for certified aircraft and deduced that from the
pilot's perspective, it's useful to test the systems ability
to run self powered during preflight. From both a builder's
and pilot's perspectives, it's useful to minimize the number
of switches on the panel.
I crafted a suggested wiring diagram which was published
as our Figure Z-33 and excerpted in one or more of the
full-up aircraft drawings. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z33K.pdf
In this drawing you can see that three-position, progressive
transfer switches are incorporated to have an OFF position
that grounds the RED control lead and breaks power to the
ORN lead from the battery bus.
The mid position removes the ground from the control lead
but does not apply power. The upper position leaves the
control lead ungrounded and adds bus power to the system.
The thought was that by means of logical positioning of
switches a pilot could demonstrate that a P-Mag would run
self-powered during a preflight run-up.
A third maintenance switch was necessary to take advantage
of built-in timing functions. A switch under the cowl
would offer a means by which the e-mag/p-mag could be
powered up for timing leaving the rest of the aircraft
'cold'.
Here are the Figure Z-33 notes that accompany the wiring
diagram in the AeroElectric Connection.
--------begin excerpt-------
Figure Z-33 P-Mag Maintenance Mode and Hand
Propping Option. E-Mags and P-Mags are a unique
product in that as the factory points out, have TWO
switchable functionsPower and control. Their installation
manuals suggest separate switches but in a quest for the
minimalist panel, I crafted the drawing for P-Mags in Figure
Z-33 which is repeated in Figure Z-13/8.
. . . now, be aware that the sequence of switching functions
depicted have been commented on by the good folks at EMagair
suggesting that switch movements should bring
power on first followed by activating the magneto.
My wiring diagram shows the opposite sequence, ignition
"active" first followed by supporting power. The reason is
quite simple. There are separate but divergent interests in
the ownership and operation of the p-mag:
(1) When sitting at the end of the runway doing a pre-flight,
the PILOT'S interest is "are the built in alternators for each
P-Mag functioning?" By wiring as I've suggested, moving
the switch from full up to the mid position deprives a P-Mag
of electrical support and (if the run-up RPMS are high
enough), the ignition will not falter when dropped to the mid
position. Of course, the opposite ignition needs to be
completely OFF at this time.
Pre-flight test sequence would be:
RUN-UP RPM . . . . . Set
L-IGN Switch . . . . . . . OFF
R-IGN Switch . . . . . . . ON but no BAT (mid position)
Note engine does not falter
L-IGN Switch . . . . . . . ON but no BAT (mid position)
R-IGN Switch . . . . . . . OFF
Note engine does not falter
Both IGN Switches . . . . BAT
(2) A secondary interest is what might be called the
maintenance mode for ground ops where the mechanic
wants to have the systems powered but inactive for using a
P-mag's built-in timing features -OR- for hand propping the
engine where again, it's useful to be able to hear the timing
buzzer.
In this mode, you MUST have battery power available to the
P-Mags even when in the inactive state. The diagram
shows a third switch (accessible through the oil check/
filler door?) that places temporary power on both ignitions
while leaving absolute control over activity in the hands of
whoever has access to pilot's controls on the panel.
If one chooses this architecture, then a light on the panel
should be included to alert the pilot should the switch be left
in the maintenance position. Not a big risk from a fight
operations and safety perspective but it WOULD run the
battery down.
This figure adds a switch to allow powering up the e-Mag/p-Mag
product while leaving it de-activated. This feature
activates the built in aural timing buzzer needed for timing
the ignition system -AND- for proper pre-positioning the
prop for hand-propping the engine.
--- end of excerpt ----
I've been told via the 'grapevine' that operating the
p-Mag in the manner suggested has some issues with respect
to product performance. Specifically that if power is
removed from a p-Mag and then replaced that the processor
wanders into the weeds and upsets the system's timing.
Understand my friend that I was in no way trying to do
an end-run on you . . . it seemed that the wiring/operating
scheme I was suggesting covered some bases that I would
be required to address with systems wieners, test pilots
and DERs should I be tasked with qualifying your product
onto a type certificated aircraft.
If indeed it is a bad thing to remove and then replace
power on a p-Mag while it's operating, then I'm mystified.
Irrespective of the aircraft's electrical architecture,
DO-160 suggests we design our products to gracefully
recover from a power interruption . . . if the
'grapevine' stories are accurate, then the p-Mag would
not fair well in a DO-160 investigation.
If the internal alternator is poised to pick up the load
during a power outage I'm further mystified as to why
a p-Mag would even be aware of bus power interruptions.
The spirit and intent of the proposed pre-flight test
was to demonstrate that the p-Mag was ready, willing
and able to run if the bus goes down. I would expect
the processor in a running p-Mag to be oblivious
of whether or not bus power was present.
I confess that my assumptions about functionality
of your product were being filtered through the logic
used to craft products for the TC aircraft world and
I may have stubbed my toe by not clearing this idea
with you. I'd be pleased to understand the true
nature of the beast with a goal of offering our
collective customers the best we know how to do in
crafting an owner built and maintained aircraft.
I still want to visit your facilities. I also
need to drop into George Braley's place in
southern OK. I might just take a couple days pretty
soon and make this trip happen. I've been 'retired'
from Beech for about two months . . . I've done more
new design work the past 6 weeks than I've done the
past 6-years! Problem is that what I thought was going
to be a 20 hr/wk retirement activity has turned into
a more-than-full-time job. I've told my principal
that I can do this for awhile . . . but I've have
some fun things that need to happen pretty soon too.
It would also be helpful if you could give me a
engineer's narrative of field problems with e-mag
products in the field. Folks are asking me about them
and I have to confess ignorance in the matter. Further,
if there's anything in my bag-of-tricks that might
be helpful in your endeavors, I can make you a really
great deal. I've written several times that the e-Mag
products promise to be the next great thing in ignition
systems for light aircraft. I'd be pleased to be of
assistance for making that hopeful assertion a
demonstrable reality.
Kindest regards,
Bob . . .
|
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by
today!
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_OctHMtagline
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: E-MAG wiring Z13-8 |
|
|
Frank,
I and others have waited for this revision as well. To be safe rather than
sorry I chose to take out the Z13-8 wiring system to the E/P mags and
rewired according to the Emagair system. It is hard to fault the
manufacturers suggested way to wire their product. It isn't all that hard to
rewire according to the Emagair plan. I would suggest that you rip out the
Z13-8 and go with the Emagair system.
Mike
---
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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