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Reality Check - cost of an RV10

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AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently. Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers:

1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run                            $48,325

2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min    $ 2,500

3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540   min      $40,000

4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical            $ 2,000

5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender                $1,000     

6. Hartzel 2 blade prop  (freight included above)     $6,260

7. Paint it yourself materials  only                           $2,000

8. Interior (do you want it to look nice)  minimum    $2,000

9. Firewall forward kit from vans  (no throtle quad)   $6,000

                                                                      _________

Total                                                                 $110,000



OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal

VFR panel (ex Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP  = min $10,000



Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000



This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS  - No builders assist (classes)- no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no screw ups where you need to replace parts -  nothing extra



In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a decent panel when you are going 200mph.



Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Amen 



- and throw in a crappy US dollar exchange rate of say $0.75 on average

over the kit purchase price, and then  overseas freight + GST at 10% on

top of the lot and the pain is far greater!  If you want all new parts

(engine etc) don't expect to get by for less than $200k in Oz - unless

the Aussie dollar continues its drive above US$0.90 ;->



Ron



 

--

acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

...and hospital bills for back repairs and expensive glasses so you can

still see the real world exists outside your shed, a new CD library because

the neighbours are threatening to sue if you play anymore 70's and 80's

music, a new dog; one that won't bark at you when you go near your own

house, a flame suit for making stupid comments on the matronics list, a

divorce lawyer, and don't forget the cost of keeping your friends

entertained with that new, bright red, itchy, clowns nose that no-one

believes is fibreglass allergy. And public liability insurance for your

neighbours, who all march their kids to the other side of the street when

they see you coming, whispering, "There's that meatloaf idiot who's going to

try to fly his bat plane out of his shed and hopefully miss our house....

Don't forget the expense of lots of flowers and lots of apology

cards..."Sorry I missed our special day" (insert here...wedding,

anniversary, funeral, Caribbean cruise)



Buy an LSA off the shelf and miss all the fun? Not this cave dweller!

What do ya say Wilson? Ready for a beer?

Cost?

What cost

Skys the limit.

My two cents worth. hmmm at $0.90 that's $0.018 alrighty then, where's that

Vans catalogue?



Do not archive.

John 40319

--

poneill(at)irealms.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

While we're at it, don't forget the cost of the extra food for the

approximately 340,000 calories you will burn while building the plane.



Best Regards,

Patrick #40715

Do not archive



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

You're right on this. Yeah, you can save a little on engines or

props by going used or something like that, but it's still going

to add up to a lot.  Just the large item orders are probably

going to total over $100k, but the small, hard to account for

things add up too.



In the list you posted, you caught the avionics, tools, and

things like that, but what's really misleading is things like:

Interior (at) $2K is just seats....not interior, but people really

forget about all the misc. stuff......



Epoxy, fiberglass, glues

ELT

Seat Belts

Batteries

Structural and pinhole fillers

window glue

headliner

proseal

pitot and static hardware if you want more than basic

Additional hardware (yes, despite what they tell you,

	you can't possibly finish it without at least

	SOME hardware)

Baggage Door Lock

Seat coverings, and REAR seats complete

Interior materials if any, or at least paint

fuel pump and flowmeter

relays and contactors

Antennas

Weather Stripping

Eyeball vents....nope, not included

Tie-down eyelits

Flap pos. system

Any trim options other than Elevator

Stick grips

Sound Proofing / heat protection

Fuel selector if you want more than the plain-jane

Fire Extinguisher



Heck, just the Epoxy/fiberglass/glues involved in the -10

add up to HUNDREDS in the end.  There are tons of things that

aren't included, and it adds up in small bits to quite a

chunk of change.



I'd agree with Mike...don't even start a -10 if your

budget isn't at least $130K, because it's just gonna

make you upset as you find you're blowing past that

amount to get the plane you want in the end.  I'd have

to say, if someone looked at the list I just wrote

above and decided that they didn't WANT 85% of that

stuff, it's not going to be a plane I'd even ride in....most

of it is not just fluff, but necessary.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

AirMike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I read with great interest Mr. VanG's article in R-Vartor recently.

 Kuddos to him on the completion of the plane. I do want to take issue

 however with the cost estimates at the end of the article. There is

 no way on earth that you or I can build an RV10 equiped like his for

 $110-115K - it is simply not going to happen. Lets run the numbers: 

1. Basic Q/B kit is going to run                       $48,325
	


2. Delivery (it will not levitate to your door) min    $ 2,500

3. If you or I want an Aero Sport IO-540   min      $40,000

4. Lighting and Strobes and basic electrical            $ 2,000

5. Fuel pump and fuel filter - fuel sender                $1,000

6. Hartzel 2 blade prop (freight included above)     $6,260

7. Paint it yourself materials only                  $2,000

8. Interior (do you want it to look nice)  minimum    $2,000

9. Firewall forward kit from vans  (no throtle quad)   $6,000

						 _________ Total

						$110,000

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 OPPPPS - we forgot avionics - If you want a minimal VFR panel (ex

 Dynon - Garmin 296 - Radio - TXP  = min $10,000

 

 Van's Panel works out to $16,000 at normal retail prices putting his

 plane out there at a MINIMUM of $126,000

 

 This includes NO FRILLS - NO TOOLS  - No builders assist (classes)-

 no special options like Flap position system - no gascolator - no

 screw ups where you need to replace parts -  nothing extra

 

 In the real world the Q/B plane will cost you a minimum of $135K and

 more likely $140-150. You have to buy tools - you will need builders

 assist - you will need to hire a painter or do a Macco paint job on a

 $150K airplane. You will want a nice interior and you will need a

 decent panel when you are going 200mph.

 

 Vans make a great plane at a decent price, but you can get an off the

 shelf LSA for 100K. An RV10 kit is not the same thing. DO NOT START

 THIS PROJECT WITHOUT A MINIMUM BUDGET OF $130,000

 

 -------- OSH '08 or Bust

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141449#141449

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Shipping is a pretty good chink too, I wander what Van paid for shipping?



My shipping cost are over $2000, including engine and avionics plus all those spruce/vendor orders.



Rick S.

---

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

I agree.  The main place you could save much money here is going with a used

engine.  N110GS bought a used engine and built it up himself for under

$20,000, but those are hard to find.  All of the stuff that Tim listed are

necessary and add up a lot faster than you think they would.  You would be

best off budgeting $150K or so and then building as if your budget is

$110,000 and you might make it in around $130K.



Do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Along these lines don't forget the thousands in shipping for everything,

especially the overnight bills at the end. Seems like I spent $500 in

shipping for the last minute got to haves to be ready for final

assembly/ inspection.

Trish had to drive to summit, not once, but twice in the two days before

my inspection to get 90 degree fuel fittings because we could not bend

and flare them tight enough to fit, and to get scales because the guy at

the airport was sick and nobody else had them. That's six hours, gas

money etc just for four fittings and a set of scales. Granted with

proper planning these could have been avoided, but there is always

several things that pop up and cost extra to solve and at the end there

will be more than you think.



BUT with everything being said about costs, planning and such, lets keep

in the perspective that there is not a better feeling than the first

time you take off in a plane you built in your garage, it makes

everything else a mute point. No matter what you have to do, collect

aluminum cans if you have to! Build one and fly it, it is definitely

worth the heartache and frustration along the way!

Dan

N289DT RV10E flying



--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Amen brother. Cave dweller indeed. Did you mention pshychaitric bills once 

you realize all the other things you are missing. Putting the sailplane away 

for the winter and getting back into building has been a challenge. CAve 

dweller! Maybe building in a glass dome would be better. I hate the cave!



I built a house on a bare piece of property where I had to clear brush for 

six months first. I went to four years of undergrad and then on to four 

years of dental school. Countless hours of studying. I was younger then. 

Building a plane like this at midlife is tough at best. Don't want to wish 

my life away, but this is a better project for the retired.



The most difficult part of this is the isolation, unless you have a building 

partner. It does weird things to your mind. One might just want out, but if 

you are not a quiter, then you start dreaming of other outlets that might 

make you feel good...as in alive. Careful it could get costly, and you could 

find your airplane bashed in by a baseball bat. Take those baseball bats out 

of the house if that is where the plane is.



Do as John suggests and get a Wilson volleyball and put it in the shop so 

you can talk to it like Tom Hanks did in that stranded movie.



Okay, back to figuring out where I got all that strobe wire??? I need some 

more. Back through the receipts. Oh, where did I put that socket wrentch, 

another five minutes wasted?



EEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHH!



John #409

[quote]From: "John Dunne" <acs(at)acspropeller.com.au>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:35:53 +1000






....and hospital bills for back repairs and expensive glasses so you can

still see the real world exists outside your shed, a new CD library because

the neighbours are threatening to sue if you play anymore 70's and 80's

music, a new dog; one that won't bark at you when you go near your own

house, a flame suit for making stupid comments on the matronics list, a

divorce lawyer, and don't forget the cost of keeping your friends

entertained with that new, bright red, itchy, clowns nose that no-one

believes is fibreglass allergy. And public liability insurance for your

neighbours, who all march their kids to the other side of the street when

they see you coming, whispering, "There's that meatloaf idiot who's going 

to

try to fly his bat plane out of his shed and hopefully miss our house....

Don't forget the expense of lots of flowers and lots of apology

cards..."Sorry I missed our special day" (insert here...wedding,

anniversary, funeral, Caribbean cruise)



Buy an LSA off the shelf and miss all the fun? Not this cave dweller!

What do ya say Wilson? Ready for a beer?

Cost?

What cost

Skys the limit.

My two cents worth. hmmm at $0.90 that's $0.018 alrighty then, where's that

Vans catalogue?



Do not archive.

John 40319

--

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

The formula that I have been using is $110K plus panel plus interior. This includes paint, long build wings, quick build fuselage, and $40K for the engine.

   

  Even one year later, the smile is priceless.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

  



Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" 



I agree. The main place you could save much money here is going with a used

engine. N110GS bought a used engine and built it up himself for under

$20,000, but those are hard to find. All of the stuff that Tim listed are

necessary and add up a lot faster than you think they would. You would be

best off budgeting $150K or so and then building as if your budget is

$110,000 and  you might make it in around $130K.



Do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

I think if you ask Van and the people who put the estimator numbers together, they will tell you that NUMBER does NOT include a NEW motor or $50-100K in Avionics.   That estimator will get you a Basic VFR aircraft that performs the same as a $300k RV10.  Van's philosophy for building HBAC has not changed...........Great Performance, Great Economy, at a Great Price.  It is the people building these planes that make the conscious decisions to spend more for NEW vs used or rebuilt that refute Van's numbers.  The neat thing about Van's kits and building an EXP is the ability to spend as much as you want IF you want too.  I find it hard to tell a guy who has made millions over 35 years that he is misleading his customer.  But is it a free speech world........and anyone can disagree or even call him a liar.  I call Van the smartest guy in GA aviation.  The rest of us only wish we had done what he has done............of course look at the posts on this site, on VAF, and many others.  Thousands of us are telling Van everyday HOW to run his business........thank God he has learned to listen to only the important suggestions and comments.  Please don't ruin peoples dream because you don't have the same philosopy as Van on the RV10. 

Off the soapbox and into the plane going fishing in SD. 

DEAN 805HL 



_____________________________________________________________

It's never been easier to change your name. Click now!

   [quote][b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Dean, 

After admiring your RV-10 I can see where you followed Van's great economy philosohpy to a Tee!!   

Rick S.

---

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Hard to disagree with any one post on this subject - all are making good points.  If you want to build an RV-10 and REALLY want to come in as inexpensively as possible, you would go slow build all the way and be ready to pounce on a used engine when the right deal comes along.  Going slow build saves 11-12k over a quick build, and even in today's environment it's not impossible to find a parallel valve Lyc 540 for 20k or so.  Of course, slow build will take longer to build than if you go quick build, and the engine would have some time on it.  Engine may also be carbureted instead of fuel injected and/or be low compression (235 HP version instead of 260 HP).  Multiple people have gone this route with engines and done very well!  Those 2 factors alone chop 31-32k off the price tag!  There have also been people that have used different (non-BA) props and saved another couple thousand.



Bottom line: it's possible to be very frugal and end up with an RV-10 for a lot less money than some of the numbers thrown out.  It would likely be a VFR cruiser but would fly just like all the other -10s.  While many of us set out to build for IFR with datalink weather, traffic, etc. from the start, keep in mind that Van's factory -10s are VFR only and they take one to every major airshow in the country!



The points are also valid about going in with your (budget) eyes open.  Figure out what YOU want to end up with, make a budget to account for that and stick with it.   Can you live with the stock pitot tube made from aluminum tubing (supplied with the kit) or do you "need" to upgrade to the stainless steel tubing version?  Or maybe spend a few hundred and get the Gretz heated pitot tube - don't forget the $100 mount!  Of course, you could get a certified pitot for just another few hundred (and you'll still need a Gretz mount)...  



There are many of these decision points along the way.  The key to building as inexpensively as possible requires a lot of discipline and a game plan from the start.



For the record, I am not in the Dean Sombke frugal club but I'm sure that his plane will carry about the same and cruise about the same speed as mine or anybody else's!



Bob #40105/N442PM

Only another month or two...

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Reality Check - cost of an RV10

Actually since price of avgas went over $4 Vans doesn't take a -10 to

every show. Didn't bring anything but their -7 demo bird to

Copperstate last year. As a result wound up having to go to Aurora to

get to fly one...not a bad thing, just costly.



On 10/24/07, bcondrey <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bottom line: it's possible to be very frugal and end up with an RV-10 for a lot less money than some of the numbers thrown out.  It would likely be a VFR cruiser but would fly just like all the other -10s.  While many of us set out to build for IFR with datalink weather, traffic, etc. from the start, keep in mind that Van's factory -10s are VFR only and they take one to every major airshow in the country!


	


 	  Quote:

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