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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
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 Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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As many of you know, I have been slowly (very slowly) moving forward
on The Project, a ground-up restoration of a 1967 CJ6A airframe.
But I have come to a conclusion: I no longer really want a CJ6A for
myself. Don't get me wrong, I love the CJ. (Yes, I love the Yak-52
too, but for different reasons.) The problem is, when I look at what
I want from a personal aircraft, the CJ6A falls short in several
areas so I am thinking along different lines. (I will elucidate if
someone asks but personal preference is just that, personal
preference, and mine is not yours. You should make up your own mind
as to what you want in an aircraft and why.)
Regardless, I am still trying to produce the best CJ6A possible. Here
is what I have done so far:
* Total disassembly of the airframe;
* Chinese instruments and electrical system removed and discarded;
(I did keep the oil pressure, fuel pressure, and oil temp senders as
well as the air start solenoid and starting vibrator.)
* complete inspection of every component;
* replacement of all bearings and hinges;
* inspect and overhaul all pneumatic components;
* replace any skins that were not deemed in perfect condition;
* recover all control surfaces;
* installed two 18 gallon fuel tanks in the wing center section
increasing fuel capacity to 78 gallons while retaining the stock 42
gallon tanks.
* installed stock engine and prop.
This is now the cleanest CJ6A airframe I have ever seen. (That is not
to say that there aren't others but I just haven't seen them.)
Now here is the stuff that I am for-sure going to do to complete the
aircraft:
* replace the stock cowl shutters with a titanium iris;
* stainless steel exhaust system;
* replace the wobble pump with an electric unit that will
automatically come on if fuel pressure drops;
* engine priming using the electric fuel pump so the manual primer
will go away too;
* modern, ergonomic, light-weight instrument panels, front and back;
* completely new, modern, lighter, and much simpler electrical system;
* new glass;
* new paint (it has already been stripped for inspection so it needs
paint anyway);
* lighting for night and IFR ops;
* automatic control of the iris and oil cooler door for CHT and oil-
temp control . Once engaged a microcontroller will manage CHT and oil
temp so the pilot won't have to. There will of course be a manual
bypass so that the pilot can take control away from the automatic
system. BTW, this will weigh no more than the stock, manual system.
* ALL controls will be operable from either cockpit allowing solo
from the rear seat if desired. (I wanted to do this to move the CG
more aft without having to add weight to the airframe in the tail to
get the CG into an acceptable range.)
* I am considering whether or not to put in three-axis trim. I
haven't decided.
I haven't decided which engine monitoring system to install or
whether to just build my own based on the automation that I will
already have present. Most of the new engine monitoring systems are,
to my way of thinking, the same. They display numbers, usually too
many numbers, and then do nothing else. My idea of a good engine
monitoring system is that it should deal with the parameters
automatically but also alert me when something goes wrong. Normally I
only want to see things for which I have an adjustment knob, and that
pretty much reduces down to engine power, i.e. MAP, RPM, and EGT in
this aircraft. If something is amiss, I want it to *tell* me and then
display everything so I can troubleshoot. Until then, don't bother
me, I'm flying.
So the goal is to make this the most pilot-friendly CJ6A in the air.
You can bet this will be a great airplane for formation flying as you
won't need to look inside the cockpit at all under normal conditions.
It will be certified for day/night VFR and IFR. The big questions are
probably just how far to go with the avionics and instrumentation. As
a minimum it will have a Dynon PFD for both front and back seats with
a Garmin SL-30 nav-com and transponder. I haven't decided what to do
for a GPS or MFD, if anything. Regardless, the comm, nav, and xpdr
will be operable from both seats allowing the GIF or GIB to complete
an IFR flight without any problems.
At this point I am interested in other people's wish lists. I want
this airplane to be attractive to a buyer when it is finished and
time comes to sell it. (You can bet I plan to fly it until someone
buys it from me.  So I am soliciting input from people who might
want such an airplane. Heck, if you get involved now and decide to
buy this airplane, I can tailor it to your specific desires,
including upgrading to an M14P and modern, composite prop.
Here are some of the primary questions I think I want answers to:
1. Should I install a three-axis electric trim or keep the stock
manual trim system?
2. Should I install an M14P? If so, should it be 360hp or 400hp?
3. If I install an M14P, should I go with an MT, a Whirlwind, or the
"stock" Russian paddle-prop? Why?
4. What sort of EFIS do people like best? (I know, this is already an
ongoing thread.)
So, give me some feedback.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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Brian,
Sounds like one hell of a project that will turn into one hell of a great
plane. With the EU to US dollar the way it is, it is cheaper to overhaul in
the US now than across the pond. But the answer from me is I have two YAKs.
I do not need another Eastern bloc A/C.
Now to answer you question, I still prefer the Dynon D10A. Even with its'
short comings of not having GPS. It does have a program to upgrade it to a
HSI now not that I have done it yet.
The rest of the upgrades on your (soon to be someone else's CJ) is for you
guys to decide. I'm going to fly the 52 this afternoon.
Doc
--
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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At this point I am interested in other people's wish lists. I want
this airplane to be attractive to a buyer when it is finished and
time comes to sell it. (You can bet I plan to fly it until someone
buys it from me. So I am soliciting input from people who might
want such an airplane. Heck, if you get involved now and decide to
buy this airplane, I can tailor it to your specific desires,
including upgrading to an M14P and modern, composite prop.
Here are some of the primary questions I think I want answers to:
1. Should I install a three-axis electric trim or keep the stock
manual trim system?
Well you most likely wouldn't short out a battery on steel trim cables if you went to insulated wires.  (Remember that one "Sparkey" )
The most used trim would of course be for the elevator, and than rudder, with little use of the aileron trim once it is set up. I personally would not put in aileron trim simply to keep it simple. The present steel wire trim is near bullet proof and very reliable. Rudder trim would be very nice and using electrics would simplify installation. Adding the auto pilot would take care of the wing leveling requirement.
2. Should I install an M14P? If so, should it be 360hp or 400hp?
By all means do it. It is an easy modification and the safety aspect of increased performance is worth it. I doubled my rate of climb from my HS-6 (260hp) engine.
3. If I install an M14P, should I go with an MT, a Whirlwind, or the
"stock" Russian paddle-prop? Why?
I have the stock paddle prop. It however was refurbished by Whirlwind and looks and is balanced much better than when it was in Russian condition. However I've flown behind and in formation with the MT, Whirlwind, and FW-190 prop (very sexy looking). They were all superior to the standard paddle. You might want to talk to Bill Blackwell. He did some testing and can give you the actual thrust measurements between the different props. With all three props, the power-off angle of descent is much steeper, particularly with the FW-190 prop.
4. What sort of EFIS do people like best? (I know, this is already an
ongoing thread.)
I have the Blue Mountain Sport. I bought sometime ago, when it first came out. Easy installation. and so far trouble free. However, I would like to have a two screen presentation on it. As it is I have to punch from the attitude screen to the HSI screen back and forth. It would be far better if the HSI (horizontal situation indicator) and attitude horizon were on the same screen. BM does have a new EFIS with that set up, but it does take up more panel space. Also Aspen Avionics has just came out with a vertical rectangle screen unit. The top part will has a cylinder (all its circuits and for plug-ins) that will fit or mount right in a 3 1/4 instrument hole. This thing looks really cool and looks simple to install. You might want to look into that. I over came my HSI problem by mounting a AVMAP GPS (7" screen) on the top of my panel. Large and very readable in daylight. Also the company (for $400) just add MX weather to the unit. It will do every thing a Garmin will but with a bigger screen. That will soon be in my airplane.
So, give me some feedback.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
See [quote][b]
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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On Nov 11, 2007, at 3:58 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
At this point I am interested in other people's wish lists. I want
this airplane to be attractive to a buyer when it is finished and
time comes to sell it. (You can bet I plan to fly it until someone
buys it from me. So I am soliciting input from people who might
want such an airplane. Heck, if you get involved now and decide to
buy this airplane, I can tailor it to your specific desires,
including upgrading to an M14P and modern, composite prop.
Here are some of the primary questions I think I want answers to:
1. Should I install a three-axis electric trim or keep the stock
manual trim system?
Well you most likely wouldn't short out a battery on steel trim
cables if you went to insulated wires. (Remember that one
"Sparkey" )
|
I sure do. It was *dark* in there! Well, it was until the trim cable
got across the battery. Then I saw god. Actually I saw a really big
purple splotch for about the next 5 minutes. Did you know that god is
purple?
| Quote: | The most used trim would of course be for the elevator, and than
rudder, with little use of the aileron trim once it is set up. I
personally would not put in aileron trim simply to keep it simple.
The present steel wire trim is near bullet proof and very reliable.
|
Yes, and I am considering retaining it. I don't like pure fly-by-wire
stuff without backup personally. OTOH, there are a lot of
experimental aircraft flying very happily with Mac trim servos and
they seem as reliable as mechanical things. Also there is less chance
to short out the wiring with the battery.
| Quote: | Rudder trim would be very nice and using electrics would simplify
installation.
|
Precisely. Electric trim for all three axes would probably be as
light as the stock manual pitch-trim alone.
| Quote: | Adding the auto pilot would take care of the wing leveling
requirement.
|
Yes, I considered adding an autopilot and then the servos for the
trim would come from the autopilot. But if I don't plan to keep the
plane long-term, I am probably not going to put extra money into it.
If someone is interested in the airplane then I will be happy to
tailor it to their tastes.
| Quote: |
2. Should I install an M14P? If so, should it be 360hp or 400hp?
By all means do it. It is an easy modification and the safety
aspect of increased performance is worth it. I doubled my rate of
climb from my HS-6 (260hp) engine.
|
Yes, an M14P with a modern 3-blade prop would be my first choice too.
OTOH, the Huosai is dead-nuts reliable and this will be a very light
airplane anyway.
Does anyone have a CJ with the 400hp engine? If so, could they please
comment on performance relative the to 285 hp and 360 hp engines.
(Side note: The Project once had an M14P and an MT-3 prop but I
needed money a couple years back so I sold them to Sean Caroll to put
on Joe Nygard's CJ. It turns out that, while well-known to many
people but unbeknown to me, Sean Caroll is a lying thief. He paid me
the 1/2 up front we agreed upon but he still hasn't paid the $10,000
he still owes me. I have recently discovered that he has come into
money and is quietly paying the people he needs to purchase product
from and not returning phone calls to those he doesn't. If anyone out
there has any contact with Mr. Caroll, I would certainly appreciate
it if they would remind him that he still owes me $10,000. I would
even happily pay a 10% finders-fee to someone who could get him to
finally pay me.)
| Quote: |
3. If I install an M14P, should I go with an MT, a Whirlwind, or the
"stock" Russian paddle-prop? Why?
I have the stock paddle prop. It however was refurbished by
Whirlwind and looks and is balanced much better than when it was in
Russian condition. However I've flown behind and in formation with
the MT, Whirlwind, and FW-190 prop (very sexy looking). They were
all superior to the standard paddle.
|
Ah, OK.
| Quote: | You might want to talk to Bill Blackwell. He did some testing and
can give you the actual thrust measurements between the different
props. With all three props, the power-off angle of descent is
much steeper, particularly with the FW-190 prop.
|
Yes, I have experienced that flying Tyson's '52 with the 400hp
engine. My neighbors are constantly on my case for my overhead break,
one-continuous-turn to landing until they ride with me and see that
no other approach will let me make the runway in case of an engine
failure. I used to refer to my approach in the CJ as the "lawn dart
approach". The power-off approach of the Yak-52 with the big engine
and three-bladed prop is now termed "the falling brick" approach.
| Quote: |
4. What sort of EFIS do people like best? (I know, this is already an
ongoing thread.)
I have the Blue Mountain Sport. I bought sometime ago, when it
first came out. Easy installation. and so far trouble free.
However, I would like to have a two screen presentation on it. As
it is I have to punch from the attitude screen to the HSI screen
back and forth. It would be far better if the HSI (horizontal
situation indicator) and attitude horizon were on the same screen.
BM does have a new EFIS with that set up, but it does take up more
panel space. Also Aspen Avionics has just came out with a vertical
rectangle screen unit. The top part will has a cylinder (all its
circuits and for plug-ins) that will fit or mount right in a 3 1/4
instrument hole. This thing looks really cool and looks simple to
install. You might want to look into that. I over came my HSI
problem by mounting a AVMAP GPS (7" screen) on the top of my
panel. Large and very readable in daylight. Also the company (for
$400) just add MX weather to the unit. It will do every thing a
Garmin will but with a bigger screen. That will soon be in my
airplane.
|
Thanks Jim.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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Hey Brian;
I too am in the process of restoring a CJ and considering a number of
modifications. It is the last of 4 I imported from China in 1994. The other
3 have been flying for more than ten years but mine still sits in the
corner. The descriptive word for my restoration is SLOW. Probably even
slower than yours. But since I sold the Harvard I now have to get it done.
It is a nice straight 1966 model with 1728 Hrs TTSN.
Without actually doing the numbers I think you will have a big problem in
making this an allowable rear seat solo aircraft. You have an allowable CG
range of 4.9 in.
If you do not ballast to compensate for the removal of the Chinese avionics
there is no possibility
of meeting the forward CG limit in the most forward condition (front pilot,
min. fuel, full oil, no baggage, etc.) even if you extend the forward limit
by 2 in. The M14P and 3 blade prop do not help in this respect. As I'm sure
you know there are a number of reasons for the forward limit. In this
aircraft configuration the overriding one is simply "Is there adequate
elevator authority in the most forward loading condition to make a safe
landing with a dead engine and zero (or even minimum) fuel"
You may be able to meet this with a mandatory " solo from rear seat only"
provision but that introduces a host of other problems including
saleability.
The front seat pilot is actually forward of the CG and with the additional
weight of the M14P and 3 blade provides some counterbalance for the
additional 216 lbs. of fuel (plus the installation of tanks & structure).
The aircraft with 2 on board and full fuel will be over gross weight.
Moving the pilot to the rear seat will guarantee that it will also be well
beyond the rearward CG limit.
Cheers;
Walt
---
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wlannon(at)persona.ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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---
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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On Nov 11, 2007, at 8:20 PM, Walter Lannon wrote:
| Quote: | Without actually doing the numbers I think you will have a big
problem in making this an allowable rear seat solo aircraft. You
have an allowable CG range of 4.9 in.
If you do not ballast to compensate for the removal of the Chinese
avionics there is no possibility
of meeting the forward CG limit in the most forward condition
(front pilot, min. fuel, full oil, no baggage, etc.) even if you
extend the forward limit by 2 in. The M14P and 3 blade prop do not
help in this respect. As I'm sure you know there are a number of
reasons for the forward limit. In this aircraft configuration the
overriding one is simply "Is there adequate elevator authority in
the most forward loading condition to make a safe landing with a
dead engine and zero (or even minimum) fuel"
|
Right.
| Quote: | You may be able to meet this with a mandatory " solo from rear seat
only" provision but that introduces a host of other problems
including saleability.
|
Correct. I would never set up a CJ to be "solo from the rear seat only."
| Quote: | The front seat pilot is actually forward of the CG and with the
additional weight of the M14P and 3 blade provides some
counterbalance for the additional 216 lbs. of fuel (plus the
installation of tanks & structure). The aircraft with 2 on board
and full fuel will be over gross weight.
|
You are correct.
| Quote: | Moving the pilot to the rear seat will guarantee that it will also
be well beyond the rearward CG limit.
|
I haven't done the W&B but are you sure that with a pilot in the rear
seat, no additional ballast, and reduced fuel load the CG will be aft
of the rear CG limit?
Regardless, you are assuming that all of this would be with no
changes. With a pilot in the front seat, empty fuel, an M14, etc.,
one would need to put weight in the tail to achieve a CG within the
forward limit. No problem. But, if one was looking to get the CG
within the acceptable range without additional weight in the tail,
putting the pilot in the rear seat would do the job.
So don't make the assumption that the aircraft configuration will be
static. It would be very easy to allow for removable ballast to move
the CG to the proper location.
The key is that it would be *possible* to solo the aircraft from
either seat. Have flown the CJ and instructed in it from the rear
seat I would personally have no problem flying it from back there. I
can imagine someone else wanting that capability as well, especially
if they wanted the extra performance that comes from reduced gross
weight and with the CG at the aft limit. Isn't it nice to have options!
[quote]
Cheers;
Walt
---
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: The ultimate CJ6A |
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On Nov 11, 2007, at 8:33 PM, Walter Lannon wrote:
[quote]
---
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