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Epoxy Question

 
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jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Epoxy Question Reply with quote
Dear Europa Gurus',

I have a question for the builders list. I bought an "orphaned" Europa Clasic kit and the former builder didn't get too far with it. I am currently building the wings and I am using fresh MGS epoxy because I was concerned that the Ampreg Epoxy that came with the original kit in the early to mid nineties was past its usable shelf life.

With that in mind and just for the hell of it: Out of curiosity I mixed up a 100 grams of an already opened Ampreg epoxy container and took some scrap fiberglass and did a lay-up and low and behold the old epoxy cured rock hard and seems ok.

My question is could I use this old epoxy that came with the original buyers kit?

And if it can be used could it be used on structural parts? Or if it cannot be used in a structural capacity could it be used on non-structural parts? (say final coating and fairing)

I'm really curious to say the least. In a nutshell it would be great to use and save quite a bit of money as opposed to harden it all so it could be thrown away into a land fill. I guess I could epoxy a garage floor or use it on an old boat of furniture project?

I curious to see what you all have to say; thank you for your time and consideration.

Regards,

Jeff Paris
Now Flying a Zenith Ch601XL Jab3300 185 total hours N196ZP

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mx(at)jcliff.waitrose.com
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject: Epoxy Question Reply with quote
Quote:
I have a question for the builders list. I bought an "orphaned" Europa
Clasic
kit and the former builder didn't get too far with it. I am currently
building
the wings and I am using fresh MGS epoxy because I was concerned that
the Ampreg Epoxy that came with the original kit in the early to mid
nineties
was past its usable shelf life.

Many years ago I contacted SP about the useful life of Ampreg. The
technical adviser said that the shelf life they publish was underwritten by
periodic tests on batch samples kept at their factory and they had satisfied
themselves that it remained usable at 2 years. Unfortunately they kept no
samples older than 2 years (as their primary customers for Ampreg 20 were in
the boat building industry and typically used the resin soon after buying
it) so they couldn't comment on older batches. She did say that she
wouldn't be surprised if the material was still entirely usable for our
purposes beyond that time but that they could not vouch for it. She also
said that some properties such as the viscosity, affecting ease of use, and
'setting time' might drift out of spec. beyond 2 years, without
significantly affecting ultimate strength. Always assuming storage within
the spec. parameters, of course.

They would (then) be willing to test a sample older than 2 years supplied by
a customer to see if it was still viable, but the cost made it prohibitive
unless you had a number of packs from the same batch.

Like you I have found that well-out-of-date Ampreg cures perfectly well and
I have used t for a number of round-the-house jobs. I wouldn't use it for
the aircraft, though (and you must not do so in the UK).

John Cliff
#0259

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jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:33 am    Post subject: Epoxy Question Reply with quote
Dear Jeff

I am not a guru but I believe the materails last for years; but
unfortunately you can't prove it without testing gear.
I am using some 1996 Ampreg for my filling and still have 4 cans of resing
left. However I threw out the hardeners about 3 years ago because the
plastic containers had shrivelled and I thought some of the contents had
leaked out. I weighted another bottle which did not look too good and found
the weight had not changed from the time it had been packed and that is the
one I am still using for filling.
I have switched to West System for Mod 74 work.

JR (Bob)
Gowing UK Kit 324 in Oz

---

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georgepowell(at)hotmail.c
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Epoxy Question Reply with quote
Please see my post of August 7, 2007. In it I detailed my bench test of a batch of Araldite with an "expire" date in 2006. I related my detailed records of the test, but I don't have the math background to calculate the forces involved.

I did this test after reading an extensive prior thread relating to epoxy expiration. The gist of the replies was that the expiration date listed on the can is related to the length of time the manufacturer keeps its batch records. One poster related his conversation with an expert in epoxies, who said that the "out of date" epoxy should be usable, if stored properly.

I am comfortable with the performance of my Araldite based on my test, as it appears that the Araldite will be the last component to fail (after laid-up fiberglass parts). After all, what is the supposed shelf life of other components used in our aircraft?

Everything about building your own aircraft entails some risk. Get as much information as possible and make your own assessment, as I did. I would recommend reading the earlier thread with the expiration discussion; it's very enlightening.

George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org

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aireupora(at)sbcglobal.ne
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Epoxy Question Reply with quote
Jeffrey, Here's the reply I got when I asked the same question you have from the manufactor.

Dear Mr. Stockton,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding Aeropoxy PR2032 (Y1898) and PH3660 (Y1901). These two products were made in July, 2001. We put a one-year shelf life on all epoxy products only because that is the standard for the industry. That is an arbitrary length of time to limit liability. Actually epoxies are quite stable and are good for many years in unopened containers. If I were building a car or boat with 6-year old material, I would not be concerned. If I were building an aircraft that I was going to fly, I probably would use fresh material. The only way to know for sure is to retest the material. By the time you paid freight and for our lab time, it would be less expensive to buy new material. Save the existing material for non-aircraft applications.

Best Regards,

Bill Romey
bromey(at)ptm-w.com (bromey(at)ptm-w.com)
800 421-1518
www.ptm-w.com


Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com> wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris"

Dear Europa Gurus',

I have a question for the builders list. I bought an "orphaned" Europa Clasic kit and the former builder didn't get too far with it. I am currently building the wings and I am using fresh MGS epoxy because I was concerned that the Ampreg Epoxy that came with the original kit in the early to mid nineties was past its usable shelf life.

With that in mind and just for the hell of it: Out of curiosity I mixed up a 100 grams of an already opened Ampreg epoxy container and took some scrap fiberglass and did a lay-up and low and behold the old epoxy cured rock hard and seems ok.

My question is could I use this old epoxy that came with the original buyers kit?

And if it can be used could it be used on structural parts? Or if it cannot be used in a structural [quote][b]

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