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kearney(at)shaw.ca
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 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
[quote][b]
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rene(at)felker.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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I am not flying yet…….but I have a BMA lite and GRT Horizon 1 in my panel. When I pull the airplane out and power it up, I can already see a difference…..The BMA has better resolution and contrast, but is not steady when the airplane is sitting still, the GRT seams rock solid. Just an observation. I would recommend you talk to Stein at Stein Air, I think he really understands all the options.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
| Quote: | | [b][b][b][b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345678901234
[quote][b]
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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Les,
I looked at BMA very long & hard because it is so enticing with it’s apparent feature laden package. Unfortunately the archives are littered with discussions on hardware & software& delivery issues related to that product. I absolutely wish any and all glass developers well when entering this market place and do not want to speak negatively about any vendor that does not deserve the bad press but if you are interested in true IFR flight I would suggest some of the other low cost units, especially Dynon & GRT etc… I have been EXTREMELY impressed with both of these companies and their offerings for the price.
On my field LIVES a well known racer (no names) that is sponsored by BMA so I assume he receives top support and the latest releases. When I ask if he ever flies IFR with his BMA panel he just laughs. His screen has gone black many, many times. You just don’t hear about that happening with other vendors like you do with BMA. Again it makes me ill to pass this info along as I know it damages some very hard working people but the thought of you flying in the soup with friends family and the only thing you have to guide you is a blank display gives me the shivers.
Robin
Going all the way with G900X
Do Not Archive
[quote] [b]
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rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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Here's my view on the EFIS thing, we've effectively gone thru this twice now. We looked real hard at BMA about 2 years ago when planning our complete redo of our Glastar panel and decided against it for some of the reasons Robin has already highlighted. Instead we chose the Dynon D-100 series. This is intergrated in our Glastar and has performed very well. I fly it IFR and VFR. We have also installed 2 of the original small Dynon units in 2 other Glastars we built, these were intended as back-up to steam gauges. Again Dynon has done well and stood behind their product. Now for what I think needs improvement. This is IFR specific, the resolution on the Dynon D-100 screen is just not fine enough on the HSI to accurately track the localizer and glide slope (in my opinion of course) during the last mile of an approach. The appearance of the horizontal and vertical bars is just too fat to adequately communication slight deviations in course during this very sensitive time of flight. I find that during this time my scan goes to my traditional GI-106 indicator. Otherwise, the Dynon has been an absolute outstanding value and rock solid. (also note, I do not have the bright sceen option). Now for the future. I've selected dual AFS 3500's to go in my RV-10. (I'm mainly after bigger screens and the overlaid HSI view on top of the attitude information) I'm still on the fence about adding a separate GI-106 indicator. I'd like to hear input from others on this.
Thanks,
Bob Newman.
Note: Our instrument panel can be seen at www.tcwtech.com, at the bottom of the home page click on "see our new instrument panel N99RN"
[quote][b]
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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Les,
I think you are starting at the right place. I have no experience with BMA directly, so I won’t say what I have heard. I have extensive experience with Dynon (rock solid and very easy to use in my experience) and some very limited experience with some of the others (AFS, Chelton, GRT, Garmin). I have never, that I know of, heard complaints about any of these except maybe that some are a little hard to calibrate. Again, starting with the EFIS and working out is a good way to go. I think the next step from the EFIS would be the GPS, if a good dependable one is not part of your EFIS already. Then, IMHO, whichever TruTrak auto pilot does what you want it to with the first two choices. Then, the radio(s) that are not already included in the earlier items, then backups and aux stuff like audio panel, possibly entertainment, etc.
As I am sure many know, my recommended IFR panel on a budget is a Dynon D-180 w/ backup battery, Garmin 430W, Garmin SL-40, Garmin GTX-327, PS Engineering or Garmin Audio Panel, TruTrak Digiflight II VSG or better Auto Pilot (the Sorcerer is FANTASTIC), TruTrak ADI w/ internal GPS and backup battery, Garmin 496 w/ XM Weather and internal battery, Garmin GI-106A Nav Display, and a simple vertical card compass, airspeed indicator and altimeter. It is definitely arguable that this is a solid IFR panel, and although not as fancy as some, and certainly lacking some of the features of a lot of others have in their panels, it is a good solid and stable panel on a budget.
I can share some panel layouts using this basic setup if you would like. E-mail me off the list if so.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney(at)shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
[quote] [b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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carl.froehlich(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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A neighbor with a Blue Mountain EFIS/1 in his RV-8 for 4 years now has yet to get it to work. On the few times the AI display came up, he told me it tumbled within a few minutes. He has decided he will never fly IFR with it (he is a retired airline pilot). Another local pilot with a Lancair 4 has had his EFIS/1 out of the panel more than it has been in. Both tell me the Blue Mountain customer service after the sale is poor.
I recommend you talk to a Blue Mountain owner. Perhaps my two data points are not the norm.
On the other side, I have had excellent after the sale service from both Grand Rapids and Dynon.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
| Quote: | | [b][b][b][b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345678901234
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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n212pj(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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On a budget? ! ! !
Well, guess we all have different budgets. Agree, however, that that is a great panel. I would do the AF series, but otherwise, not bad. Not bad at all, given what was available only a few short years ago.
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:47 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Blue Mountain AVionics
Les,
I think you are starting at the right place. I have no experience with BMA directly, so I won’t say what I have heard. I have extensive experience with Dynon (rock solid and very easy to use in my experience) and some very limited experience with some of the others (AFS, Chelton, GRT, Garmin). I have never, that I know of, heard complaints about any of these except maybe that some are a little hard to calibrate. Again, starting with the EFIS and working out is a good way to go. I think the next step from the EFIS would be the GPS, if a good dependable one is not part of your EFIS already. Then, IMHO, whichever TruTrak auto pilot does what you want it to with the first two choices. Then, the radio(s) that are not already included in the earlier items, then backups and aux stuff like audio panel, possibly entertainment, etc.
As I am sure many know, my recommended IFR panel on a budget is a Dynon D-180 w/ backup battery, Garmin 430W, Garmin SL-40, Garmin GTX-327, PS Engineering or Garmin Audio Panel, TruTrak Digiflight II VSG or better Auto Pilot (the Sorcerer is FANTASTIC), TruTrak ADI w/ internal GPS and backup battery, Garmin 496 w/ XM Weather and internal battery, Garmin GI-106A Nav Display, and a simple vertical card compass, airspeed indicator and altimeter. It is definitely arguable that this is a solid IFR panel, and although not as fancy as some, and certainly lacking some of the features of a lot of others have in their panels, it is a good solid and stable panel on a budget.
I can share some panel layouts using this basic setup if you would like. E-mail me off the list if so.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney(at)shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
0123456789012345678901
2 [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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Before I went with the Chelton as primary and GRT Sport as backup and XM display, I checked with the L9(?) drivers in the PHX area. They had a full time employee just updating the software and keeping the DBs updated. Also I personally know a BM test pilot and he flies IFR with backup instruments and three BM units in the aircraft. He indicates that the units reboot often. Perhaps your best bet may be to find a satisfied BM customer and pick their brain about reliability, and ease of support of the software and hardware.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:33 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Blue Mountain AVionics
A neighbor with a Blue Mountain EFIS/1 in his RV-8 for 4 years now has yet to get it to work. On the few times the AI display came up, he told me it tumbled within a few minutes. He has decided he will never fly IFR with it (he is a retired airline pilot). Another local pilot with a Lancair 4 has had his EFIS/1 out of the panel more than it has been in. Both tell me the Blue Mountain customer service after the sale is poor.
I recommend you talk to a Blue Mountain owner. Perhaps my two data points are not the norm.
On the other side, I have had excellent after the sale service from both Grand Rapids and Dynon.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
| Quote: | | [b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345678901234
5[/b] [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain Avionics |
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HI
Many thanks to all who answered my query. I have several more data points upon which to base my decision. All very useful and all remarkably consistent.
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: November-13-07 8:40 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Blue Mountain AVionics
Before I went with the Chelton as primary and GRT Sport as backup and XM display, I checked with the L9(?) drivers in the PHX area. They had a full time employee just updating the software and keeping the DBs updated. Also I personally know a BM test pilot and he flies IFR with backup instruments and three BM units in the aircraft. He indicates that the units reboot often. Perhaps your best bet may be to find a satisfied BM customer and pick their brain about reliability, and ease of support of the software and hardware.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:33 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Blue Mountain AVionics
A neighbor with a Blue Mountain EFIS/1 in his RV-8 for 4 years now has yet to get it to work. On the few times the AI display came up, he told me it tumbled within a few minutes. He has decided he will never fly IFR with it (he is a retired airline pilot). Another local pilot with a Lancair 4 has had his EFIS/1 out of the panel more than it has been in. Both tell me the Blue Mountain customer service after the sale is poor.
I recommend you talk to a Blue Mountain owner. Perhaps my two data points are not the norm.
On the other side, I have had excellent after the sale service from both Grand Rapids and Dynon.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (375 hrs)
RV-10 (wings)
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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Yes, everybody has a different budget, but I don’t know how to get much cheaper for a good dependable IFR panel with a decent level of backups.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: John Jessen [mailto:n212pj(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:24 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Blue Mountain AVionics
On a budget? ! ! !
Well, guess we all have different budgets. Agree, however, that that is a great panel. I would do the AF series, but otherwise, not bad. Not bad at all, given what was available only a few short years ago.
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:47 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Blue Mountain AVionics
Les,
I think you are starting at the right place. I have no experience with BMA directly, so I won’t say what I have heard. I have extensive experience with Dynon (rock solid and very easy to use in my experience) and some very limited experience with some of the others (AFS, Chelton, GRT, Garmin). I have never, that I know of, heard complaints about any of these except maybe that some are a little hard to calibrate. Again, starting with the EFIS and working out is a good way to go. I think the next step from the EFIS would be the GPS, if a good dependable one is not part of your EFIS already. Then, IMHO, whichever TruTrak auto pilot does what you want it to with the first two choices. Then, the radio(s) that are not already included in the earlier items, then backups and aux stuff like audio panel, possibly entertainment, etc.
As I am sure many know, my recommended IFR panel on a budget is a Dynon D-180 w/ backup battery, Garmin 430W, Garmin SL-40, Garmin GTX-327, PS Engineering or Garmin Audio Panel, TruTrak Digiflight II VSG or better Auto Pilot (the Sorcerer is FANTASTIC), TruTrak ADI w/ internal GPS and backup battery, Garmin 496 w/ XM Weather and internal battery, Garmin GI-106A Nav Display, and a simple vertical card compass, airspeed indicator and altimeter. It is definitely arguable that this is a solid IFR panel, and although not as fancy as some, and certainly lacking some of the features of a lot of others have in their panels, it is a good solid and stable panel on a budget.
I can share some panel layouts using this basic setup if you would like. E-mail me off the list if so.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney(at)shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Blue Mountain AVionics
Hi
As I start looking at that curved blank piece of metal that will morph into an instrument panel, I am trying to sort out what I should install.
I am interested in any opinions / experiences with the BMA EFIS 2. Not having an unlimited budget, I my pan is to build a solid IFR panel around whatever EFIS I choose. For the moment, the BMA EFIS seems to have most, if not all, of what I need at a very reasonable price.
Inquiring minds need to know ….
Les Kearney
#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse
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[quote] [b]
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bjudge(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Blue Mountain AVionics |
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I'm an RV-8 builder, owner flyer. I'm hanging out on this list to
learn more about the RV-10
For those interested in Blue Mountain Avionics I'll share my first
hand experiences.
Here are the Facts:
I got on the list for an EFIS lite G3 about 2 years before my first
flight. The lead time was something like 10 weeks and I received my
unit after about 16 weeks. After installation I noticed the issues
with the unit sitting still with no GPS input: The ADI would tumble
after a few minutes of sitting still in my garage. When I asked BMA
about this I was told that GPS was necessary for stable attitude
solutions. After I made it to that airport with GPS input the unit
displayed the same behavior. I was then told it needed to be in
flight to display proper attitude. This didn't pan out either. I
sent it back for service, they turned it around in 8 weeks after a
"recalibration" and it still didn't display stable attitude.
After getting no response for some time I sent a letter certified mail
return receipt asking for them to refund my money or I would hire a
lawyer in Copperhill to take them to small claims court. After that I
got some more attention from the service department and they told me
that unless the unit sees 10-12 satellites it can't function. To
solve the attitude equations they have to use Pitot or GPS info: BMA
is on the GPS side of the equations. I was told that a refund was out
of the question for a product sold 2 years ago.
Here is some analysis:
That is where I left things with BMA. Despite taking a $3000 loss on
the equipment I can't have something that needs GPS in my plane just
to maintain control. Anybody that has flown for a while has probably
seen GPS become unavailable. It is not unusual to see notams for GPS
outages around military airspace and so I couldn't stomach being that
dependent on GPS. I can cope with loss of GPS nav capabilites but
loss of attitude at the same time is outside of my risk envelope.
Greg Richter says the GPS is a better choice for giving stable
attitude.
here is some opinion:
I now have a Dynon D10A with an HSI-34. This combo has the base
features that I wanted: standard 6 pack and CDI at near the same
price as the BMA. Dynon is a much more mature product than the BMA
and Dynon is much more intuitive. The HS-34 is a new addition and
wasn't available when I was shopping.
Homebuilding is an unusual market place because of the potential large
lag between the time products hit the market and when the end users
actually get to use the products. BMA doesn't seem to care about this
kind if issue. Additionally 8 weeks is far too long for a product
turnaround.
I am just talking about the fundamental issues that I have had with
BMA. I could expound for several more pages on this and other issues
I have with them.
Just to keep me honest I have copied Greg Richter from BMA. I'm sure
his opinion will differ from mine.
Bill Judge
RV-8, flying since 11/18/06 now with 180 hrs now
N84WJ
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