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Radiator ideas

 
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Rex Hefferan



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

I thought part of this article about a unique racing motorcycle might be
of interest. It describes some aspects of radiator design and function
as understood in the formula racing world that might be of use to
aircraft homebuilders.

[ "Unlike a standard-type motorcycle where the radiator is just like a
big old block that sits at right-angles to the airflow, if you slant the
radiator you effectively increase the surface area relative to the
projected area to the airflow." Tuluie said that, depending on the
details of the radiator, it doesn't become much more efficient above 40
mph. "The efficiency tapers off, so you don't really need 200-mph air
for your radiator. The reason is because there are other paths in the
system that just cannot reject heat fast enough. That can be the engine
itself-the surface area is limited within the cylinder. There is a
certain heat-transfer rate through the cylinder wall, there's a
heat-transfer rate in the radiator through the radiator fins and
core-and no matter how fast the air goes, the heat-transfer rate is the
limiting factor. Once you have a certain speed of air going through the
radiator, that is sufficient, and any more will not buy you more cooling.

"If you take a small amount of intake air area, say a square-foot, and
then you route it to a radiator which has a cooling area of two square
feet, then you've doubled the surface area there, and you've reduced the
velocity by a factor of two of the air going to the radiator compared to
the air that was coming in. It's like a stream, for example. A stream
always flows the same amount of water, but when it's wide, the water
flows slow; where it's narrow, the water flows fast-it's the same
principle. So we've taken air from above the front wheel going whatever
the speed of the bike, but when the air goes through the radiator it has
slowed down, say by a factor of two. ]

Complete article here:
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/issues/apr00/tularis.htm

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Rex Hefferan
N740GP
Colorado


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Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

At 05:08 PM 2/23/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
I thought part of this article about a unique racing motorcycle might be
of interest. It describes some aspects of radiator design and function
as understood in the formula racing world that might be of use to
aircraft homebuilders.

Not to disparage the information, this is very old news written in press
release format. Let me know if anyone wants it translated into English.
(Meaning, it may be obvious to everybody but I wanted to write, just in
case it wasn't.)

Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Do not archive


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:00 am    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

The heat carrying ability of the water is a constant, I believe. Total
cooling ability maybe based on exposed area? I own a Suzuki Bandit, which
uses the old GSX-R motor, which is oil-cooled (no water). I had read that it
works fine, until you start increasing the power output with mods, where the
oil lacks the ability to cool it properly. Apparently, water systems don't
have this problem.

I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
with Bernoulli. You don't push the air through a radiator, you suck it
through. You'd ideally want a small frontal air intake, then expand that air
to slow it down, thereby increasing its pressure at the radiator surface.
Then re-squish it to lower the pressure and accelerate the air into the air
stream aft of the system. I did this on my 2, and it does work. My radiator
is mounted horizontal at the bottom of the firewall, behind the muffler can.
I built a reverse scoop with moveable flap that exits at the bottom aft
cowl. It removes the drag of being under the fuse, and shortens the coolant
lines.

I've noticed that some bikes, like the 996 Superhawk and the RC51 have
radiators mounted sideways. I guess they duct the air 90 degrees and then
out the side of the cowl. I've wondered if this would work on our K'fox
cowl. Seems it would solve some installation problems on some engines. I'd
like to get some dirt bike radiators and try that. Mount them with the face
of the radiator parallel to the airstream against the side of the cowl, and
use some pre-made auto hood scoops to redirect the air aft. Then you could
use ducts (aluminum dryer duct?) and take high-pressure air from the lower
front of the cowl and go right to the face of the radiator.

Someone else pointed out a gorgeous curved m/c radiator on ebay a while
back. Sure would just like to play with it, but I thought it too big to be
used. Sure is pretty, tho'.

I would like to take a walk around an F1 race car someday, and see how they
solve cooling issues. They have mucho power, with very little frontal area.
Might be a neat idea hiding there.

Bradley

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Rex Hefferan



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

Thanks Guy,
However, I'm confused about your offer to translate, when I view the
link page it is in English. Smile
(note to all: The article is not dated, but I estimate it was published
around 6 years ago.)
Rex
Colorado
Do not archive
Guy Buchanan wrote:

Quote:


At 05:08 PM 2/23/2006, you wrote:


>I thought part of this article about a unique racing motorcycle might be
>of interest. It describes some aspects of radiator design and function
>as understood in the formula racing world that might be of use to
>aircraft homebuilders.
>
>

Not to disparage the information, this is very old news written in press
release format. Let me know if anyone wants it translated into English.
(Meaning, it may be obvious to everybody but I wanted to write, just in
case it wasn't.)

Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Do not archive





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Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado
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Rex Hefferan



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

Bradley,
Do you have photos to share of your radiator installation? I also have
a model 2 .

The thing I had not understood before was that radiators can only
transfer heat at a certain rate regardless of the excess air flow. Thus
turning radiators at right angles to the airflow will work fine as long
as the airflow is ducted to provide a good enough air movement.
Rex
Colorado
Bradley M Webb wrote:

[quote]

The heat carrying ability of the water is a constant, I believe. Total
cooling ability maybe based on exposed area? I own a Suzuki Bandit, which
uses the old GSX-R motor, which is oil-cooled (no water). I had read that it
works fine, until you start increasing the power output with mods, where the
oil lacks the ability to cool it properly. Apparently, water systems don't
have this problem.

I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
with Bernoulli. You don't push the air through a radiator, you suck it
through. You'd ideally want a small frontal air intake, then expand that air
to slow it down, thereby increasing its pressure at the radiator surface.
Then re-squish it to lower the pressure and accelerate the air into the air
stream aft of the system. I did this on my 2, and it does work. My radiator
is mounted horizontal at the bottom of the firewall, behind the muffler can.
I built a reverse scoop with moveable flap that exits at the bottom aft
cowl. It removes the drag of being under the fuse, and shortens the coolant
lines.

I've noticed that some bikes, like the 996 Superhawk and the RC51 have
radiators mounted sideways. I guess they duct the air 90 degrees and then
out the side of the cowl. I've wondered if this would work on our K'fox
cowl. Seems it would solve some installation problems on some engines. I'd
like to get some dirt bike radiators and try that. Mount them with the face
of the radiator parallel to the airstream against the side of the cowl, and
use some pre-made auto hood scoops to redirect the air aft. Then you could
use ducts (aluminum dryer duct?) and take high-pressure air from the lower
front of the cowl and go right to the face of the radiator.

Someone else pointed out a gorgeous curved m/c radiator on ebay a while
back. Sure would just like to play with it, but I thought it too big to be
used. Sure is pretty, tho'.

I would like to take a walk around an F1 race car someday, and see how they
solve cooling issues. They have mucho power, with very little frontal area.
Might be a neat idea hiding there.

Bradley

--


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Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

At 03:53 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
with Bernoulli.

Bradley's got it right; and I'd love to see his installation. I have the
radiator below the fuselage with the Skystar "scoop" which is just a big
flat plate as far as drag is concerned. A real radiator scoop actually
provides thrust, as in the P-51, because the heat added increases the
velocity of the exhaust beyond that of the incoming air. I hadn't thought
there was room in the cowl for this type of installation. I'll have to take
another look.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Do not archive


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

This weekend I will try to post them up. Maybe Sportflight site. I'll let
you all know when and where.

Bradley
KF2 N1836
Middle GA

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:15 am    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

Finally, success! After trying a number of times, I finally got the pics of
my radiator onto Sportflight.com. They're under "Add Ons/Modifications".
I've also uploaded a .jpg drawing into "Sketches" section showing my setup
theory. So far, it works pretty well, but I'm still taking care of details,
like total sealing. I'm also considering increasing the lip size, from 1/4
inch to 3/4 inch, in an effort to further increase the low-pressure
"bubble", and help on hot days.

For reference, the previous owner had the airbrake under-fuse setup, and
said 200 degrees was common. My setup has never exceeded 188 degrees so far,
and the 582 at 5800rpm gives me VNE (90mph). So I guess I've improved it.

The rad is mounted using SS plates bolted to the firewall, and the rad just
rests on the bottom lips. Some cowling seal rubber creates a chamber that
forces air through the rad downward. It then exits the bottom. The muffler
has a "cowl" with an air space, about 1/2 inch, and is held on with large
hose clamps. The idea here was to allow air flow to take the muff heat away
from the rad.

I'll try to get some pics of my cowl scoop and post them, but it's eerily
similar to some of the others posted there. Just some .025 curved aluminum,
side plates, and a hinged flap with lip at the back.

Bradley

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Radiator ideas Reply with quote

Hey Brad,

Thanks much for the pictures. They are a big help. I have a Model 2 with the
newer engine mount but I don't think that that will matter. Post the scoop
pictures when ya can as I'm sure that we can use them too...

Ron Mod 2/582 N55KF

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