Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

IFR in a kitfox
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

buddcr(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Hi all,



I was wondering how many KFs there are out there that are IFR certified? And out of those how many people actually fly theirs in IMC?  I wanted to know how people felt about being in IMC in a kitfox?

 

Chris Budd

97 Kitfox IV Speedster

VW pwr N53RJ



       Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.    [quote][b]

pulsair(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Chris,

 Mike Harter flew IFR on a regular basis in his  Kitfox. He was tragically killed in Arizona a few years ago not related to IFR.  Jeff Classic IV

 [quote]   ---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Chris sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I wanted to know how people felt about being in IMC in a kitfox?


	


I regularly fly my Piper Turbo Arrow IFR.  One of the things I 

appreciate about that airplane is that I can point it where I want it 

to go, divert my attention for a few seconds to mess with the radios, 

read an approach plate, or copy a clearance, and when I look at the 

instruments again it's pretty much where I left it.



My Model IV Kitfox was an absolutely delightful and easy-to-fly 

machine but it did not share that characteristic.  I could take my 

hand off the stick and it would stay roughly where it had been 

pointed, but the air would push it this way and that quite a bit 

more.  I never even thought about this when VMC but I'm not sure if 

it would have made a very stable instrument platform.



There's certainly no reason you couldn't operate IFR in a Kitfox as 

others have done, but I'd be thinking "auto-pilot."



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: IFR in a kitfox

I have a full IFR panel in my Kitfox, with all the appropriate avionics, and

intended to fly mine IFR when I built it. Since I've been flying it for a few

years, now I would never fly it IFR. It is simply not a hands off airplane.

You could fly it iFR but it would be a VERY stressfull adventure as looking

at an approach plate and back at the panel you might find yourself 30-40

degrees off attitude in almost any direction, in as much time as it took to

read this.



I think mine is reasonably stable with the heavy IO-240 up front, but it

is definetly not a good IFR platform in my opinion.



Jeff.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On Nov 18, 2007, at 6:23 PM, Chris Budd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   And out of those how many people actually fly theirs in IMC?


	


Since you ask, Chris, here is my story. In Norway, with my uncertified 

Kitfox, I can't fly IFR. I can't fly at night and I can't even fly 

on-top. So, I have no gyro instruments except one of those cheap 

solid-state turn coordinator.

Last May, I was to fly from Norway to south Germany where I was to meet 

friends. I had prepared that for a long time and was looking forward to 

it. The forecast was for a high pressure over most of Europe so I was 

optimistic. I had a flight plan for 8 AM.

When I arrived at the airfield, there was fog. I had to delayed my 

flight plan. Usually that morning fog lifts up during the morning. I 

had given me 12 AM as my last chance to leave, otherwise I wouldn't 

reach my first overnight in northern Germany and my rendez-vous with my 

friends.

At 11 AM, the fog had lifted and a call to the nearby airport tower 

confirmed that the ceiling was now 1,000 ft. That gave me enough 

altitude to cross the Oslo fjord and fly toward Sweden where the METAR 

was CAVOK.

I took of and levelled at 800 ft, right under the cloud cover. A few 

minutes later I was over the water when I realised that I had lost 

sight with the ground. Grey over me and grey under me!

That happens often early in the year. The water is still colder than 

the air and fog banks drift over the fjord. I had to take a decision. I 

could try to climb and fly on-top. I could try to descent and hope to 

see the water. Or I could just turn around and forget about my trip.

All that thinking took me some minutes during which I was keeping a 

straight course, looking at the turn coordinator and my GPS with moving 

map. I knew that it was only maybe ten minutes before I would be again 

over land and certainly the fog will be gone. I didn't know how deep 

was the cloud cover so I decided not to climb. I stayed at the same 

altitude and heading.

After ten minutes I saw a dark shape under me, it was the first island 

from the other side of the fjord. It got better with time and arrived 

to the Swedish border I saw a timid sun from above, piercing in the fog 

that soon dissipated to a CAVOK situation.

Those ten minutes with no visual reference were very tense. I had no 

problem to keep the plane on en even keel, the turn coordinator (a 

TruTrak) was responding very fast. But as time went, I noticed that I 

had problems to keep a straight course. With time, I lost concentration 

and was not flying any longer in a straight line. I don't think I could 

have done that for much longer. High pulse rate, etc. you easily loose 

concentration with time.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Michel,

   

  I had a similar experience returning from Oshkosh this August, flying over lake Michigan. I departed Wisconsin heading East, climbing to 8000 feet with scattered/broken clouds at about 2000 feet. It was a bright and beautiful day at 8k ft. The further I got out over the lake, however,  the thicker the soup got below. Flight service kept telling me the weather would clear to the East, but as I neared my destination, ceiling was reporting 700 (misty rain) with tops at about 3000.

   

  I puckered-up, descended thru the soup keeping eyes glued to the panel, scanning the flight instruments & focusing on staying right side up. It took about 3 minutes before I broke thru below but it seemed more like 3 hours. I did not pay attention to course (Michigan is pretty flat - except for cell phone towers) and, as a result, broke out 180 degrees opposite the course I was on when I began the  descent.

   

  No matter, I was out, right side up and 5 minutes from home over familiar territory. Landing was uneventfuI and underwear unsoiled. But I am buying myself a Tru-trak ADI (with GPS) for Christmas.

  



Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe 



On Nov 18, 2007, at 6:23 PM, Chris Budd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   And out of those how many people actually fly theirs in IMC?


	


Since you ask, Chris, here is my story. In Norway, with my uncertified 

Kitfox, I can't fly IFR. I can't fly at night and I can't even fly 

on-top. So, I have no gyro instruments except one of those cheap 

solid-state turn coordinator.

Last May, I was to fly from Norway to south Germany where I was to meet 

friends. I had prepared  that for a long time and was looking forward to 

it. The forecast was for a high pressure over most of Europe so I was 

optimistic. I had a flight plan for 8 AM.

When I arrived at the airfield, there was fog. I had to delayed my 

flight plan. Usually that morning fog lifts up during the morning. I 

had given me 12 AM as my last chance to leave, otherwise I wouldn't 

reach my first overnight in northern Germany and my rendez-vous with my 

friends.

At 11 AM, the fog had lifted and a call to the nearby airport tower 

confirmed that the ceiling was now 1,000 ft. That gave me enough 

altitude to cross the Oslo fjord and fly toward Sweden where the METAR 

was CAVOK.

I took of and levelled at 800 ft, right under the cloud cover. A few 

minutes later I was over the water when I realised that I had lost 

sight with the ground. Grey over me and grey under me!

That happens often early in the year. The water is still colder than 

the air  and fog banks drift over the fjord. I had to take a decision. I 

could try to climb and fly on-top. I could try to descent and hope to 

see the water. Or I could just turn around and forget about my trip.

All that thinking took me some minutes during which I was keeping a 

straight course, looking at the turn coordinator and my GPS with moving 

map. I knew that it was only maybe ten minutes before I would be again 

over land and certainly the fog will be gone. I didn't know how deep 

was the cloud cover so I decided not to climb. I stayed at the same 

altitude and heading.

After ten minutes I saw a dark shape under me, it was the first island 

from the other side of the fjord. It got better with time and arrived 

to the Swedish border I saw a timid sun from above, piercing in the fog 

that soon dissipated to a CAVOK situation.

Those ten minutes with no visual reference were very tense. I had no 

problem to keep the plane on en even       Be a better pen pal.  [quote][b]

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

[quote]  

I installed the tru-trac adi last winter and have used it several times while leaving the primitive area in the dark. It has been one of my best investments yet.  

   

John Oakley  [b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I had a similar experience returning from Oshkosh this August, flying 

 over lake Michigan.


	


Thanks for sharing, Marco. I have two questions:

1) How did you keep from going in a bank if you didn't had a giro 

instrument?

2) Is on-top permitted in the US with non-certified engines? It is not 

in Norway. The idea is: You must always have a possible landing place 

in sight. Something you can't over the clouds. Maybe it's our 

mountainous terrain that dictates that.



The only time I flew on-top (against my best judgement) it was over the 

fog and I knew it would be clear at arrival, it was only a round trip. 

Here it is:

http://home.online.no/~michel/Autumn/



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Re: IFR in a kitfox

Michel,

Even if you are IFR rated an the plane has a full panel, you better be ready to fly with no gyros.  Have lost a vacuum pump and it can hose you up good if you are fixated on your main flight instrument(s) (artificial horizon etc.).  You can watch you compass to indicate turning, airspeed to tell if you are climbing or diving, RPM changes are great indications also.  glance down to see if you are holding the stick or yoke in an unusual position (may indicate a turning climb or shallow dive).  Most guys have a GPS  on-board and most have some sort of situational awareness screen.



I have been in IFR conditions twice in a bare panel PA12, once was in a mountain pass.  When I started in the pass at 1500' I could see the "turn" about 6 miles out.  About 1 mile into the pass a layer formed within about 1 minute that made it hard to see the prop... I had an old Sony Pixes GPS that had a moving map and only showed the track not real terrain features.  I kept myself glued to the bread crumb trail I had made earlier pointed the nose to the sky and firewalled it... I broke out at 14,500 in desperate need of a new pair of shorts as I was within a few miles of mount redoubt and really did not want to become a permanent part of the landscape.  I went in the following week and began my Instrument training.  

  My instructor really loved to cover up various instruments at the most in-opportune times just to drill it into you NOT to get fixated and to let you know that you don't have to have a full panel to get yourself out of a tight spot and back home as long as you keep you head on straight and don't panic.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Michel,

   

  I didn't avoid a bank. I was focused on staying right side up, keeping airspeed and rate of descent constant and the ball centered. Because I wasn't concerned about course (GPS showed no obstructions below) I did do an unintentional 180 degree, 3 minute turn. 

   

  To my knowledge, VFR "over the top" in the US is not restricted based on whether engine is certificated or not. If it is, I made up all that stuff in my last 2 posts. 

   

  



Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe 



On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I had a similar experience returning from Oshkosh this August, flying 

 over lake Michigan.


	


Thanks for       Be a better pen pal.  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On one occasion when I was  doing my flight training my flight instructor had me blind folded for about five  minutes at 5000' agl.  The first minute or so seemed like an eternity not  to mention a roller coaster.  After that, once I calmed down, the the  ride got a lot smoother.  I found I was actually telling direction by  feeling the sun on my face.  I was concentrating on my butt.  I had  read somewhere that's where the term flying by the seat of your pants comes  from.

 The exercise was apparently to  teach me that I could fly the plane regardless of what  happened.

  

  

[img]cid:510325013(at)22112007-08A9[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 



  

  

 [quote]   

   --

Signature1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

19.77 KB

Viewed:

505 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Noel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight 

instructor had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' 

agl...I found I was actually telling direction by feeling the sun on 

my face.


	


Doesn't seem a very useful exercise.  If you can feel the sun on your 

face you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no 

trouble staying upright...  



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

--

aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Sun on the face is a good one....   I teach instrument for a living and 

have heard many good ones like simpley listening do one thinr  if makes 

it worse do something else ....

don't reccommend  any of that of course...

do reccommend at least some training and try to at least practice a bit 

with a safety  pilot a few times a year.  Proper  scan along a bit of 

comfort knowing u can could save your life even  if not legal.

Getting caught on top low fuel as a VFR pilot is a real scenerio even 

when being careful.



I also have heard some wise instrument  pilots won't go unless there at 

least VFR legal under   very wise



fly safe



Dave   KF2

________________________________________________________________________

http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Sun on the face is a good one....   I teach instrument for a living and 

have heard many good ones like simpley listening do one thinr  if makes 

it worse do something else ....

don't reccommend  any of that of course...

do reccommend at least some training and try to at least practice a bit 

with a safety  pilot a few times a year.  Proper  scan along a bit of 

comfort knowing u can could save your life even  if not legal.

Getting caught on top low fuel as a VFR pilot is a real scenerio even 

when being careful.



I also have heard some wise instrument  pilots won't go unless there at 

least VFR legal under   very wise



fly safe



Dave   KF2

________________________________________________________________________

http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On Nov 22, 2007, at 12:17 AM, Marco Menezes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   To my knowledge, VFR "over the top" in the US is not restricted


	


Then you confirm what I thought, Marco, thank you. Mind you, if I fly 

"over the top" in Norway, nobody will know because when I am up there, 

I am only a tag on the controller's secondary radar! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Guys,

While flight trainiing in a 150 my instructor had me do an exercise one 

morning where we climbed to altitude and then he had me put my chin in my 

chest and fly by feel and sound, I did well for a while and then the engine 

started to rev, so my senses told me we were decending so I pulled back on 

the yoke and heard the engine rev a little more. All the time my body senses 

told me I was upright and straight. My instructor had me look up at that 

time and to my surprise we were in a 1 G spiral headed towards the ground, 

so when I pulled back earlier I simply tightened the spiral. I recovered and 

learned a valuable lesson, senses can be decieving.



Lloyd

Model 5 Rebuild

Rotax 912

Iron Mountain Mi.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Noel sez:



>On one occasion when I was doing my flight training my flight instructor 

>had me blind folded for about five minutes at 5000' agl...I found I was 

>actually telling direction by feeling the sun on my face.



 Doesn't seem a very useful exercise.  If you can feel the sun on your face 

 you aren't in instrument conditions and you should have no trouble staying 

 upright...  



 Mike G.

 N728KF

 Phoenix, AZ

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On Nov 21, 2007, at 8:37 PM, akflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Even if you are IFR rated an the plane has a full panel, you better be 

 ready to fly with no gyros.


	


I agree with you, Leonard, when you fly, you have to be ready for 

anything and it is better to practice whenever one can.

But I agree with John when he says that even the best pilot cannot 

sustain level flight in IMC, without gyro/GPS for more than a limited 

time. I think that most aviator handbooks will agree with that too. The 

next factor, which may be individual, is how we handle the situation 

when adrenaline pumps in our veins. I know that I can fly my replica 

Kitfox with exactly the same instruments in a flight simulator for 

hours. But when I had to do it in real life for ten minutes, I noticed 

how fast I lost concentration.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

"....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without

gyro/GPS for more than a limited

time."



Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that..

   "Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when

necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to

maintain runway heading.



I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty

shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore.



The man is now 85 and still does it right...most every weekend in his

basic IFR Skyhawk. No auto pilot, no wing leveler. Just good

airmanship and a constant instrument scan.



Needle ...ball...airspeed... learn the basics... then get the "toys".



Steve

84KF

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

For the first couple of minutes I wasn't feeling any thing on my face...

The only thing that kept me coherent at all was the knowledge that the

instructor was in the seat beside me if I inadvertently stood the plane on

its tail or nose.  During the whole exercise he didn't touch the controls at

all...  In fact he seemed quite impressed.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum