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IFR in a kitfox
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Michel sed:



 	  Quote: 	
		  "....even the best pilot cannot sustain level flight in IMC, without 

gyro/GPS for more than a limited time."


	


To which Steve sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Don't tell my WWII P-51D driver Dad that..

    "Needle, Ball, Airspeed....' from takeoff to 25,000 ft when 

necessary. That was after a zero visibility takeoff using the DG to 

maintain runway heading.


	


Your dad was using gyros.  The "G" in "DG" stands for "gyro" and the 

term "needle" usually refers to a turn & bank indicator--also a gyro.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I guess the 250 hr, 20 yr old CFI's, with their ties and prettty

shoulder stripes don't get in to that anymore.


	


When instrument pilots practice "partial panel" they are typically 

covering up their vacuum-powered gyros (usually the attitude 

indicator and directional gyro) but they still use the electric gyro 

(turn coordinators have largely replaced turn & bank indicators but 

provide much the same information).  So we are using "needle, ball, 

and airspeed" just like your dad.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Uhhh, da turn indicator (needle) be gyro.  



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_indicator 



John Hart



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old

instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the best way

to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude of the

plane through feelings in your bum.   That is what I did.  



Initially, because I was not expecting anything like that exercise I was all

over the sky.  Then I remembered the passage form the book and I

concentrated on the sound of the engine and the feeling in my derriere.

When I did that I straightened out.  It was at that time I noticed the sun

shining on the side of my face....  I tried to keep it there assuming if I

did that I would be flying straight... I was right.



The instructor told me at first I almost stalled a couple of times and

almost spiraled the plane at other times.  Then he said it was almost all of

a sudden I straightened the plane out and flew straight.  

What I learned was not to always believe my eyes but all my senses and not

to get upset because of a little disorientation.....  I wonder if John

Kennedy Jr. was put through that exercise.



Noel



 	  Quote: 	
		   In my 42 years of flying as an instrument flight instructor, I've been on

 top of a lower deck of clouds with a sloping top more times than I can

 count.  I've seen a lot of people try flying with only outside visual

 reference in this condition experience spatial disorientation.  They

 could/would not believe the gauges to the point that they were trying to

fly
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   with the wings parallel to the top of the cloud deck, fight heading

changes,
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   and be completely uncoordinated to the point that they fatigued themselves

 in short order (10 to 15 minutes) and could not control the aircraft.  To

 demonstrate what spatial disorientation actually feels like, I often let

the
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   instrument applicant have complete control of the aircraft, ask him/her to

 hold the aircraft straight and level with their eyes closed until I see

 "graveyard spiral" proceed to the point that they don't have a clue as to

 whether the aircraft is turning, climbing, or diving.  I allow the

aircraft
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   to continue the steep spiral up to a 60 degree bank and the airspeed up to

 maneuvering speed before I tell them to open their eyes.  I've never had

 anybody (me included) that can fly straight and level with their hands and

 feet on the controls without an autopilot of some sort for over 7 minutes,

 even in completely calm, smooth air.  Usually, when I tell them to open

 their eyes and look outside, they are in complete disbelief of the

attitude
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   of the aircraft.  Word of caution: Don't try this solo!  Always have

another
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   pilot with you just in case I'm flying nearby.  I don't like mid-air

 collisions!

 

 John Hart

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Noel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old

instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the best way

to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude of the

plane through feelings in your bum.   That is what I did.


	


Not bad advice when you can see where you are going but any 

instrument instructor worth his salt can easily put you in a 

situation where your derriere is quite satisfied that you are 

straight and level when, in fact, you are in dire straights.  The 

infamous "death spiral" can easily be achieved with 1g straight into 

your seat and, without some indication of the problem, will feel just 

fine right until you impact the earth.



At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent 

plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive 

encounters with instrument conditions.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On that I heartily agree.  In the meantime I have been very successful at

avoiding IFR conditions.



Noel

Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent

 plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive

 encounters with instrument conditions.

 

 Mike G.

 N728KF

 Phoenix, AZ

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

I just thought I'd add my 1 cent comment. I too once upon a time passed 

my Instrument rating check ride. I'm sure I'd need plenty of training to 

regain the required skills again to safely fly IFR. I remember 

practicing with the hood and found it hard not to notice the sunlight 

cues that helped keep me straight before I had really learned to really 

fly by just instrument scan. The point made by attempting to fly only by 

"the seat of your pants" (blindfolded or head down) is to show how easy 

it is to be fooled by your senses and that you must learn to trust the 

instruments. Partial panel exercises show you how to manage with some 

instrument failures and incorporate cues from other instruments not 

normally relied on for atitude indication. (engine rpm for instance)

 Yes there are clues outside the windows that can help in unintended IFR 

flight as well as the indications the airplane gives. Sounds, feel, and 

instruments. They all should be understood and safely practiced.

 To me the wonderful thing about flying is learning to use so many 

aspects, physical, technical, mental and emotional in just the right way 

that can make a successful flight so rewarding. I eventually learned to 

enjoy the challenge to practice and perfect any mundane aspect of flying.

Keep learning and practicing.

Rex

do not archive

Michael Gibbs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Noel sez:

> A week or so before that exercise I read in one of my father's old

> instructional books, I think it was, "Safety After Solo", that the 

> best way

> to keep your plane straight and level was to try to feel the attitude 

> of the

> plane through feelings in your bum.   That is what I did.

 Not bad advice when you can see where you are going but any instrument 

 instructor worth his salt can easily put you in a situation where your 

 derriere is quite satisfied that you are straight and level when, in 

 fact, you are in dire straights.  The infamous "death spiral" can 

 easily be achieved with 1g straight into your seat and, without some 

 indication of the problem, will feel just fine right until you impact 

 the earth.

 At least one gyro instrument of some flavor or its digital equivalent 

 plus a proficient pilot are the only way you can routinely survive 

 encounters with instrument conditions.

 Mike G.

 N728KF

 Phoenix, AZ

-- 

Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

clemwehner(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

I recall an experience that drove home the point about not trusting your

"seat". I was a young USAF instructor in T-38's. My student and I were

flying as the wingman of a two ship formation in heavy IMC making a turn

onto the ILS final headed for a 2-ship landing at Sheppard AFB, TX. As

wingman we were flying completely by visual reference to the leader just

a few feet away (we maintained 3-foot wingtip spacing in T-38

formation). As we turned left onto final my seat told me we were making

a left turn. But my student, who was on the controls in the front seat,

swore we were turning right and kept saying we were turning the wrong

direction onto final. To each of us the sensations were exceptionally

real and we both had no doubt the direction we each thought we were

turning. 



The interesting part is that the turning sensation continued long after

my instruments showed me that lead had rolled us out of the turn and had

us well established wings level on the ILS final. Our seats said were

were still turning--in both directions at once! Fortunately, I was a

well-trained USAF instrument pilot and knew to rely on the instruments,

but the seat sensations were almost overwhelmingly convincing. Anyone

lesser trained could have fallen victim to the misleading sensations so

easily. My student learned a great lesson that day and it solidified my

knowledge forever. 



Clem Wehner

Lawton, OK




"The point made by attempting to fly only by "the seat of your pants"

(blindfolded or head down) is to show how easy 

it is to be fooled by your senses and that you must learn to trust the

instruments.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On Nov 23, 2007, at 3:43 AM, Rexinator wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   To me the wonderful thing about flying is learning to use so many 

 aspects, physical, technical, mental and emotional in just the right 

 way that can make a successful flight so rewarding. I eventually 

 learned to enjoy the challenge to practice and perfect any mundane 

 aspect of flying.

 Keep learning and practicing.


	


Well said, Rex! Whenever I fly, I try to learn from it. Flying under 

VFR rule with simulated IMC conditions is good training. A cheap 

solid-state turn coordinator can be a life saver. But we shouldn't 

forget that under real IMC and resulting stress, our brain has a 

reduced capacity to achieve correctly a number of tasks. That's what a 

learnt at an aviation safety conference in Germany.

Flying in a mountainous country, we are told of the danger to be in a 

valley that suddenly closes with a fog bank or low laying stratus 

clouds. In that case, there is very little to do but try to go as 

quickly as possible through it. But I would never be on the ground and 

plan a flight involving a possible IMC penetration. That would be 

foolish.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

In a properly equipped aircraft, with the pilot(s) properly trained, a

takeoff in zero-zero wx is a non-event.  It has been done countless times in

helicopters.  The big problem that I found in the helicopters I flew was

limited flight time due to fuel capacity to reach a suitable alternate

airport if one was required. One hour and 30 minutes at 90 knots is not a

long distance if widespread IMC exists, or bucking a 40 knot headwind.  To

takeoff and climb through a low cloud deck on the gauges in a properly

equipped aircraft for a properly trained pilot is rather mundane.  The same

applies to executing an approach procedure at destination, but it can get

rather exciting when instruments fail, or weather turns out to be not as

forecast, either enroute or at destination.  



The biggest problems I have seen with weather in single engine aircraft is

the lack of adequate deicing equipment.  I know of an instance when in a

Cessna 310 with electric prop deicing equipment and inflatable wing leading

edge boots could not maintain altitude due to airframe icing.  Another

instance was in a Cessna 170 below the clouds over the Alaska Range.  It

accumulated so much ice from freezing rain that it could not maintain

altitude with full throttle.  Fortunately, in both instances, the air was

warm enough below that enough ice was shed during the forced descent to

avoid to ground impact.



John Hart

Wilburton, OK

Model IV, Subaru Engine



    



--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Michel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  But I would never be on the ground and plan a flight involving a 

possible IMC penetration. That would be foolish.


	


Always remember the old saying, "It's better to be on the ground 

wishing you were flying than to be flying and wishing you were on the 

ground."  



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

On Nov 23, 2007, at 3:57 PM, John W. Hart wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The biggest problems I have seen with weather in single engine 

 aircraft is

 the lack of adequate deicing equipment.


	


Good point, John. I know two Dutch friends who were to fly to Italy in 

their Cessna Cardinal a couple of years ago. The aircraft is full IFR 

instrumented and they are both licensed and trained. Yet they cancelled 

the trip. They said that the 0-isotherm ceiling was too low over 

southern Belgium to make a safe passage. Better safe than sorry, isn't 

it?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



PS: we call 0-isotherm the freezing point in Europe as it is in 

centigrade. I guess you say something else in Fahrenheit land.

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: Re: IFR in a kitfox

This is my take on this subject.  Will I ever fly IMC, don't know, I will do my best to stay out of it.  I'm planning on the same panel as in my kitfox for the RV, minimum VFR, with a hand held 496 with weather.  That way I can see what to stay away from.  If I can't fly it, I land.



I think the best thing a person can do for any situation is to fly.  I mean fly, not do what is comfortable for you, but work on things that are not comfortable.  I do touch and go's all the time, I don't do standard cessna approaches, I mix things up and do shorties, last minutes changes and go onto another runway, or do a multiple of touches on one runway.  Why? so I can enter the final at any given time and still land the airplane.



The other day there was so much traffic in the pattern that the controller, knowing what I can do, asked if I could do a short approach with another airplane about 3 miles out, I said not a problem, I turned in abeam the numbers and dove down from 800agl.  I was turning final over the numbers at 90mph, so I allowed myself to do a 60degree banking turn to slow down with an uncoordinated low wing with rudder(kind of like a landing for a strong cross wind) while leveled over the runway, why to slow her down some more, I finally made 55mph and straighted the airplane and touched down on the wheels, then slowly lowered the tail, a perfect landing, then went off the runway at the second taxi way.  Way cool and was fun.  I didn't slow anybody down and by the time I got on the taxiway for taxi to the hanger there where 3 birds ahead of me, follow the leader.



If you want to be good at what you are doing, than get up in the air and quit talking about it on the ground.  Proficiency is the key.  practice practice practice, it makes for perfection. know your bird, I don't care if you have a Kitfox or a Cirrus.  If you don't know it, it will be unsafe.  What makes a safe airplane isn't the airplane, it's the one flying it.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Been there, done that, and the entry in my logbook reads: "Scariest  

flight yet...don't do this again."  Here's what happened:

I was heading down to Benton Harbor, Michigan for a pancake b'fast,  

when I decided to tune into the ATIS for BEH...they reported fog and  

a ceiling of about 800 feet, so I went into Dowagiac and waited to  

see what happened. Well, the fog got closer to the field I was at,  

and I decided to get out of there and head for home. By the time I  

started up and taxied to the takeoff end of the field, 04, I think it  

was, the fog had moved over the north end of the field, but I took  

off, thinking that I knew how thick this fog bank was, and could just  

punch my way through it. Well, I got to looking too much at the  

ground that I had just left, and when I couldn't see it any more, I  

looked at the gauges and my turn coordinator showed me in a severe  

right bank. Knowing I should not just slam the stick over the other  

way, I just gradually eased it over to the left, but it didn't seem  

like the position of the "wings" changed much. I was climbing  

alright, so I just kept steadily increasing pressure to the left with  

the stick, and eventually came out of the fog bank, but I was heading  

about 260 degrees away from where I started out. I think my right  

foot reverted back to race car days and was flat on the floor with  

the rudder pedal under it. The sky was the most beautiful blue I've  

ever seen, and I made a HUGE heading correction and headed back east  

for home...with the thoughts of making room in my panel for a  

artificial horizon...and NOT so I could do this stupid stunt again,  

but to give me a better chance if I did happen to have another brain  

far.....er, make that another brain lapse.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/420+ hrs

do not archive

On Nov 23, 2007, at 10:13 AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>



 Michel sez:



> But I would never be on the ground and plan a flight involving a  

> possible IMC penetration. That would be foolish.



 Always remember the old saying, "It's better to be on the ground  

 wishing you were flying than to be flying and wishing you were on  

 the ground."  



 Mike G.

 N728KF

 Phoenix, AZ

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: IFR in a kitfox

sorry lynn,



But I would have stayed on the ground and grabbed my phone and called the wife and said something like this, see you tomorrow I'm stuck in...



I fly for fun and there isn't anything that would cause me to stick my neck out for.



Seems you found this out on your own, but IMC in not something to put your guard down on.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

That's my problem, kitfoxmike....no wife to call, so I HAD to fly out  

of there.....kidding of course, and I think I learned a good lesson  

at a possible VERY high price if it hadn't turned out the way it did.



Lynn

do not archive



On Nov 23, 2007, at 3:18 PM, kitfoxmike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <customtrans(at)qwest.net>



 sorry lynn,



 But I would have stayed on the ground and grabbed my phone and  

 called the wife and said something like this, see you tomorrow I'm  

 stuck in...



 I fly for fun and there isn't anything that would cause me to stick  

 my neck out for.



 Seems you found this out on your own, but IMC in not something to  

 put your guard down on.



 --------

 kitfoxmike

 model IV, 1200

 speedster

 912ul

 building

 RV7a

 slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit

 &quot;if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then  

 you're not flying enough&quot;

 Do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148110#148110

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: IFR in a kitfox

Totally understand,

The thing is, the wife would have been with me, anytime I go out of town, she's in the right seat.  So we would have stayed there and made the best of it.  My wife is an excellent right seater and she wouldn't have let me take off in the first place.  She keeps me in line.



Every year we make planes for Arlington, but we don't put it in stone, we wait until the last minute to make concrete plans of when we leave.  You see we have to go through the mountains pass to get to the other side of Washington.  This year we were able to do it.  When we left, we were a little concerned because the cloud level was low.  The pass level at stevens is I think about 3600ft and at snoquami is around 3000.  There was a group of about 7 kitfoxes that were leaving out and they were bent on going through stevens, I took off before them and was planing snoquami because I had a report from Boeing field that the cloud level was at 4200ft and I was told by a smart pilot out of Wenatchee that if the cloud level was reported at Boeing Field that would be the case at the pass for snoquami.  So off I went for the other pass.  As I flew along I could see the clouds where pretty low through stevens and was glad I was going to snoquami.  I made my turn and flew through snoquami and had good visibility through the pass.  I later heard that the boys that went through stevens pass had to pretty much scud run it.  I'm still glad today that I made my decision the way I did.  If things would have been worse I would have flown down to portland and than up to spokane.

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Lynn sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Been there, done that, and the entry in my logbook reads: "Scariest 

flight yet...don't do this again."


	




I love that, Lynn!  Maybe I should write that next to the logbook 

entry for my accident.  



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:54 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Ouch!...yeah, but as I recall, your flight/accident was under pretty  

normal conditions, wasn't it?...windshear? I recall that I read about  

your accident soon after I joined the list.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs

do not archive

On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:11 AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 Lynn sez:

> Been there, done that, and the entry in my logbook reads:  

> "Scariest flight yet...don't do this again."

 I love that, Lynn!  Maybe I should write that next to the logbook  

 entry for my accident.  

 Mike G.

 N728KF

 Phoenix, AZ

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: IFR in a kitfox

Lynns sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Ouch!...yeah, but as I recall, your flight/accident was under pretty 

normal conditions, wasn't it?...windshear? I recall that I read 

about your accident soon after I joined the list.


	


Yes, but your comment is still applicable, "Scariest flight 

yet...don't do this again."  



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ



Do not archive.

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