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Freon & on & on & on

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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

So, before I do something stoopid (again)...

  

 I got a nice Freon leak detector on eBay for $50... detects all things halogenated at leak rates as low as 3gm/year.  

  

 And practically everything in the museum has some kind of pneumatic system on it -- from the CJ up through the MI-24 to the MiG-23.  So getting "good" at finding leaks would have plenty of application.

  

 I am under the delusion that putting a shot of Freon into said system and sniffing with the leak detector is a good way to find all the leaks.  

  

 But, being the non-chemist that I am, I thought I'd ask around first before I do something ignorant.  

  

 I read through the list of refrigerants and it looks like R-23 (trifluoromethane / Fluoroform) or R-503 (R-13/R-23 mix) has a sufficiently high vapor pressure (about 4.4 MPa) at room temperature that I can pump some of the Freon into an empty nitrogen pony bottle, bump it up with nitrogen and then run the whole system up to a pretty good pressure without the Freon turning into a liquid.

 

Anybody have any objections to all this?  Is running CFCs or HFCs into aluminum tubing a bad idea?

  

 In some systems (e.g. L-39) the nitrogen system also supplies head pressure to the hydraulic system.  Is mixing CFCs/HFCs and MIL-5606 a bad idea?

  

 Suggestions?

  

 Thanks,

Jon



  [quote][b]

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cliff(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

Most leak detectors do not react with the freon (a very inert gas), but 

actually detect the ultrasonic sound the leak makes.



Cheers,

Cliff

Jon Boede wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   So, before I do something stoopid (again)...

  

 I got a nice Freon leak detector on eBay for $50... detects all things 

 halogenated at leak rates as low as 3gm/year. 

  

 And practically everything in the museum has some kind of pneumatic 

 system on it -- from the CJ up through the MI-24 to the MiG-23.  So 

 getting "good" at finding leaks would have plenty of application.

  

 I am under the delusion that putting a shot of Freon into said system 

 and sniffing with the leak detector is a good way to find all the leaks. 

  

 But, being the non-chemist that I am, I thought I'd ask around first 

 before I do something ignorant.  

  

 I read through the list of refrigerants and it looks like R-23 

 (trifluoromethane / Fluoroform) or R-503 (R-13/R-23 mix) has a 

 sufficiently high vapor pressure (about 4.4 MPa) at room temperature 

 that I can pump some of the Freon into an empty nitrogen pony bottle, 

 bump it up with nitrogen and then run the whole system up to a pretty 

 good pressure without the Freon turning into a liquid.



 Anybody have any objections to all this?  Is running CFCs or HFCs into 

 aluminum tubing a bad idea?

  

 In some systems (e.g. L-39) the nitrogen system also supplies head 

 pressure to the hydraulic system.  Is mixing CFCs/HFCs and MIL-5606 a 

 bad idea?

  

 Suggestions?

  

 Thanks,

 Jon



 *

 *


	


-- 

Clifford Coy

Director of Maintenance

Border Air Ltd

629 Airport Rd.

Swanton, VT 05488

802-868-2822 TEL

802-868-4465 FAX

Skype: callto:Cliff.Coy <callto:cliff.coy>

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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

On Nov 29, 2007, at 11:25 AM, Jon Boede wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am under the delusion that putting a shot of Freon into said  

 system and sniffing with the leak detector is a good way to find  

 all the leaks.


	


It should work.



 	  Quote: 	
		   But, being the non-chemist that I am, I thought I'd ask around  

 first before I do something ignorant.  



 I read through the list of refrigerants and it looks like R-23  

 (trifluoromethane / Fluoroform) or R-503 (R-13/R-23 mix) has a  

 sufficiently high vapor pressure (about 4.4 MPa) at room  

 temperature that I can pump some of the Freon into an empty  

 nitrogen pony bottle, bump it up with nitrogen and then run the  

 whole system up to a pretty good pressure without the Freon turning  

 into a liquid.


	


Ha, I hadn't thought of the CFC going to liquid at operating  

pressure. Good point.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Anybody have any objections to all this?  Is running CFCs or HFCs  

 into aluminum tubing a bad idea?


	


It won't hurt a thing. What do you think they do in the condenser  

coil of your A/C?



 	  Quote: 	
		   In some systems (e.g. L-39) the nitrogen system also supplies head  

 pressure to the hydraulic system.  Is mixing CFCs/HFCs and MIL-5606  

 a bad idea?


	


CFCs are inert. They won't react with the hydraulic fluid. Air with  

its 20% O2 is a lot more reactive, especially under pressure, which  

is why they use N2 instead of air.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

On Nov 29, 2007, at 11:52 AM, Cliff Coy wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Most leak detectors do not react with the freon (a very inert gas),  

 but actually detect the ultrasonic sound the leak makes.


	


There are both types, i.e. chemical and sonic.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

Brian!  Sorry... I just could not resist! 



You said:  "There are both types, i.e. chemical and sonic".



Didn't you mean:  "There are both types, i.e. chemical and ULTRAsonic".

???



I just know I'm going to love this answer!  



Your bud, 



Mark



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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:04 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 Brian!  Sorry... I just could not resist!



 You said:  "There are both types, i.e. chemical and sonic".



 Didn't you mean:  "There are both types, i.e. chemical and  

 ULTRAsonic".

 ???



 I just know I'm going to love this answer!


	


Sonic. Vibrations in the air. Frequency is not the issue. If you want  

to use the word "ultrasonic" to mean that the vibrations are outside  

the range of normal human hearing, that's fine with me. Regardless,  

one works by detecting the molecules of some CFC and the other works  

by detecting the vibrations in the air caused by the escaping high- 

pressure gas, i.e. by detecting a sound.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:294 PM,  Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sonic. Vibrations in the air. Frequency is not the issue. If you want  

to use the word "ultrasonic" to mean that the vibrations are outside  

the range of normal human hearing, that's fine with me. Regardless,  

one works by detecting the molecules of some CFC and the other works  

by detecting the vibrations in the air caused by the escaping high- 

pressure gas, i.e. by detecting a sound.


	


Brian, I was just messing with you honestly.  But..... Being somewhat

particular in the vein of accuracy as we both tend to be at times... In

fact to the point of sometimes verging on anal, at least in my case

(yes, I admit it!)  



First of all, I agree that your description is in fact perfectly

accurate with a minor exception, that being: 

"Sonic: Vibrations in the air.  Frequency is not the issue."  



Quoting Merriam Webster: 

Sonic: having a frequency within the audibility range of the human ear

-used of waves and vibrations 



Ultrasonic:  having a frequency above the human ear's audibility limit

of about 20,000 hertz -used of waves and vibrations 



Gaseous leak detectors that do not rely on chemical detection but rather

waves of sound coming from compressed air leaks most typically operate

in the Ultrasonic range since the sound said leaks produce are maximum

in this range, and further detection above sonic makes them easier to

isolate.  



So Sir, small point as it remains... Frequency is the issue.  Because

the sound detector used is not sonic, but in fact ultrasonic.  If you

take the detector from one of these devices it in fact typically has a

headset and a microphone.  If you speak into the mike, you will not hear

a darn thing coming out of your headset per se. Compress your mouth and

blow air out and the story changes! I've used them all of my adult life.

I agree that your description is in fact perfectly accurate 



Hey... You would have nailed me if the roles were reversed!    And

yes.. It is a ridiculous point.   



Mark Bitterlich

     





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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: Freon & on & on & on

And there are the ones that were left aboard the Concorde.  Those were SUPERsonic leak detectors.

[quote] Subject: RE: Freon & on & on & on

 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:07:04 -0500

 From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:294 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com> wrote:

 >Sonic. Vibrations in the air. Frequency is not the issue. If you want 

 >to use the word "ultrasonic" to mean that the vibrations are outside 

 >the range of normal human hearing, that's fine with me. Regardless, 

 >one works by detecting the molecules of some CFC and the other works 

 >by detecting the vibrations in the air caused by the escaping high- 

 >pressure gas, i.e. by detecting a sound.

 Brian, I was just messing with you honestly. But..... Being somewhat

 particular in the vein of accuracy as we both tend to be at times... In

 fact to the point of sometimes verging on anal, at least in my case

 (yes, I admit it!) 

 First of all, I agree that your description is in fact perfectly

 accurate with a minor exception, that being: 

 "Sonic: Vibrations in the air. Frequency is not the issue." 

 Quoting Merriam Webster: 

 Sonic: having a frequency within the audibility range of the human ear

 -used of waves and vibrations 

 Ultrasonic: having a frequency above the human ear's audibility limit

 of about 20,000 hertz -used of waves and vibrations 

 Gaseous leak detectors that do not rely on chemical detection but rather

 waves of sound coming from compressed air leaks most typically operate

 in the Ultrasonic range since the sound said leaks produce are maximum

 in this range, and further detection above sonic makes them easier to

 isolate. 

 So Sir, small point as it remains... Frequency is the issue. Because

 the sound detector used is not sonic, but in fact ultrasonic. If you

 take the detector from one of these devices it in fact typically has a

 headset and a microphone. If you speak into the mike, you will not hear

 a darn thing coming out of your headset per se. Compress your mouth and

 blow air out and the story changes! I've used them all of my adult life.

 I agree that your description is in fact perfectly accurate 

 Hey... You would have nailed me if the roles were reversed!  And

 yes.. It is a ridiculous point. 

 Mark Bitterlich

 --

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