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Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
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rocketbob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

On Nov 30, 2007 9:20 PM, Dave Nellis <truflite(at)yahoo.com (truflite(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis <truflite(at)yahoo.com (truflite(at)yahoo.com)>



Keep on buying foreign products, keep buying your

Toyatas, Hondas, or any rice burner made.  Sooner or 

later, it will catch up to you and you will lose your

job.  You will collect unemployment.  You will lose

your house.  You will be out on the street wondering

"Where did I go wrong?"

	
 



 I remember hearing this same sort of rhetoric during the 80's about the Japanese.  In 2007 instead its the Chinese, not the Japanese.

 

I have several friends who work at the Subaru-Isuzu plant near Lafayette, IN.  Guess what?  They're profitable, after a year of employment hourly employees make as much as their UAW counterparts.  BTW they are hiring.  There's a Toyota truck plant in Princeton, IN, same story.  Honda is building a new plant near Greenfield, IN.  What do these companies not have that their US competitors do?  1. unions, 2. overcompensated and incompetent executive management, and 3. legacy health care costs.   



Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in legacy health care costs?  Toyota pays a fraction of that.



I have a good friend who is living near Shanghai China right now and told me many interesting stories the last time he was here in the states.  One particular story that stands out was an his experience of taking an American friend to a hospital for a separated shoulder.  There's no insurance there so when you're admitted you pony up there on the spot, or as in this case a friend or family member pays for you.  In the waiting room they had a "menu" on the wall which listed costs for various procedures.  For reattaching a finger, $50.  Reattaching a hand.$250, etc.  There were a few people in the waiting room that had their hands bandaged up from getting fingers caught in presses.  The hospical equipment and facilities were top notch, just as good as they are in the US.  For x-rays, examination, and prescription total cost was less than $5.00.  Hmmm, how does that stack up against the US...?  My wife was given Tylenol in the hospital when our daughter was born two years ago, insurance was billed $10 just for that... 



Regards,

Bob Japundza

RV-6 flying F1 under const.

do not archive



  [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

// Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM  pays out over $1500 in legacy health care costs?  Toyota pays a fraction of  that.

 

 A  drive down the highway will reveal, however, that Americans don't buy cars based  on price. If they were, everyone would be driving the car I drive -- a Chevy  Cavalier.

  

 The  perception is that the American cars aren't very good.  Perception may not  match reality NOW. But that's the thing about perception.  Americans aren't  stupid. They know that it was true for a period of time and whatever they trust  they had disappeared and the American companies haven't gotten thta trust back  yet.

  

 It's  about value and quality.

  

 Want  me to buy American just because it's American. No, thanks. That removes the  incentive for American companies to produce American goods that are worth  buying.   Want me to buy American? Show me an American product that  has good value and good quality and I'm all over it.

  

 Look  at it this way. I'll spend more money than I have to on this RV. I'll buy tools  from Bob Avery, or Cleaveland. I'll get avionics and wiring and such from Stein  Bruch and his gang.  Could I go cheaper? Sure. But I pay for quality  because quality matters to me.    

  

 Companies that don't understand the principles of service and quality  that folks like Avery, Cleaveland and Stein provide deserve to die.  They  usually do.  Companies that do understand it deserve to thrive and THEY  usually do.

  

 It's  really THAT simple.  The dollar in my pocket is up for grabs. If i don't  spend it on cheap American junk, that's not my fault.

  

 by the  way, how come nobody here said a peep when Cirrus unveiled their LSA at Oshkosh  and announced it would be built in Poland?

  

  

 Do not  archive

  

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Bob J. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in legacy health care 

 costs?


	


What is "legacy health care"?



-- 

Chris W

KE5GIX



"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, 

learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"



Ham Radio Repeater Database.

http://hrrdb.com

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

 	  Quote: 	
		    // Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in 

 legacy health care costs?  Toyota pays a fraction of that.

  

And, do you know that most of this is for retired workers, with whom GM 
	


contracted to pay those expenses as part of their (deferred) 

compensation for services rendered, building cars?



And did you know that they are in this position because they bought into 

their very on self-designed pyramid scheme by not funding accounts while 

the workers were employed in order to cover these expenses, so that they 

must now pay these expenses out of current sales? (Perhaps Toyota is 

smart enough and ethical enough to plan for their contracted commitments.)



And did you know that the various American car manufacturers are now 

defaulting on these contracts, with the assistance of our American 

government, that is allowing them to default, using the 'logic' that 

forcing them to pay might bankrupt them, or hurt their competitiveness?



I wonder if I'd have gotten the same help these mega corps are getting 

if I'd defaulted on paying my handful of employees when I ran a business.



Talk about welfare...



Charlie

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Scary.  Perspective is everything.  In my working career, I never stayed 

more than 5 years with one company.  Never got fired, but I left because 

of 'personnel reductions' (read layoffs) or bailed out for better job or 

more pay.  I also had to fight to keep myself from thinking of quite a 

few countries as being 'technically deficient' ......   My bad.

Linn



N395V wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Food for thought........

video takes about 3 minutes



http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/shifthappens



do not archive



--------

Milt

2003 F1 Rocket

2006 Radial Rocket





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149927#149927

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

While  being able to get a finger reattached for $50 and a hand reattached for $250  seems a bargain no matter how you cut it (pun intended), the more interesting  question is what are the work conditions that would precipitate posting of a  menu that includes reattaching body parts? 

  

 Simple  economic theory (note, because it is a theory does not mean its not true...it  just can't be proven empirically) says that work and production should be  distributed to those areas that have an economic advantage.  For instance,  better to raise corn in Iowa than New York.  Yes, you can raise corn in New  York, but its not economically advantageous.  50 years ago, allocation of  production was based on efficiency within the U.S. borders, but as our markets  have truly become worldly, the allocation of production has moved  beyond our borders.  

  

 The  economic efficiency theory is a win-win situation for all...in a totally free  market, as it is within the U.S. since States can not interfere with  interstate commerce.  However, as it moves across national borders,  tariffs, taxes and artificial barriers to market access sharply distorts the  free trade.  Therein lies the problem.  China is the Distortion  King.  While we permit nearly unfettered access to our market  place for Chinese products, the Chinese government erects every barrier  possible, and for as long as possible, to our products and services  entering their markets.  Yes, after years or even decades, they will  grudgingly relax a few onerous barriers and will take the occasion to trumpet  their "openness".  Of course, nothing is further from the truth.   Whether it is intellectual property or beef, China will do everything within its  power to limit imports to protect their treasury and domestic markets.   Only when it wants something, for instance new Boeing planes, will it crack open  the door to its market.  Even then, its long term strategy is always to  "borrow" the technology so that 10 years later, it will be selling aircraft into  the world market instead of buying them (incidentally, this is already happening  in smaller regional jet aircraft).

  

 Now,  before we jump to blame the Chinese, we need to acknowledge that in the last  several years, our own government, serving the interest of corporations that  want to import inexpensive products (no matter the lead content), has  facilitated this damaging relationship.  

  

 My  company does a fair amount of business with Korea.  A couple years ago,  equipment to be installed in 4 new nuclear plants was put on hold for about a  year as their construction schedule was slowed because of reduced demand for  electricity.  The stated cause was "reduced electrical demand because  the Chinese are pulling away tens of thousand of manufacturing job--all the work  was going overseas."   I held my tongue but felt like responding, "ah,  now you know how we felt 15 years ago when our manufacturing job were being  usurped by Japanese and Korean manufacturers."

  

 When  China ceases unnatural protection of their domestic market and quits distorting  their currency for competitive advantage, then I will by Chinese with less  reservation.  In the mean time, I will buy Chinese but with little  enthusiasm and not to the exclusion of competing products if the quality and  overall value of the two products are similar.

  

 Chuck Jensen 

 [quote]   --

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

//And did you know that the various American car manufacturers are now

defaulting on these contracts, with the assistance of our American

government, that is allowing them to default, using the 'logic' that forcing

them to pay might bankrupt them, or hurt their competitiveness?

I wonder if I'd have gotten the same help these mega corps are getting if

I'd defaulted on paying my handful of employees when I ran a business.

Everybody who's on a military, city, county, or state pension after 20 years

of work... please step foward. (g)



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

bmeyette(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Hey, how 'bout them RVs, eh?   I hear they are a nice plane.  I'm building

one, and I hear a few other people are, too.   



 



12:05 PM

rv8iator

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Newberg, OR

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Thank you Bob!



I couldn't have said it better myself.



Back to the Cessna Skycatcher...  If the Skycatcher works out then I believe Cessna is not only going to produce their LSA in China, I'll bet they are scouting production facilities for their line of jets.  



Competition will always force business to seek the lowest production cost.  



I work in manufacturing in Oregon, USA.  We build dental equipment.  To date we are the largest manufacturer of this product.  For over thirty years our reputation as the highest quality and best value as carried us in the market place.  With the global economy we are being forced to compete with companies that produce in China.  To our managements credit instead of throwing in the towel and moving to China, we have invested in people (engineers) and production technology to remain competitive.  



I have no illusion that this will carry us forever. Hopefully as China's economy expands and their standard of living goes up, so will their cost of manufacturing.  Remember Japan Inc?  In the 1970's all the doom sayers were prophesying the end of manufacturing in the USA.  It was "buy American or die".



As long as there are countries with a lower cost standard of living then ours, production will always move there to try and gain a competitive advantage.



Markets will adjust.  We are still the most innovative county in the world.  As long as we as a country don't try to hide behind the walls of nationalism and protectionism, we will prevail as a competitive marketplace.



Now I have to get back to building my RV.  



Chris Stone

RV-8 80802

Newberg, OR

 	  Quote: 	
		  

//flop.  We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob".



//What do you do now?

Are you kidding me? do youknow what business I'm in? I'm in the mainstream

news business.  This isn't a hypothetical scenario, this is what we live

with every day. The newsppaer industry is getting shredded. You know why?

They'll tell yo it's because of CraigsList and Facebook, and the Internet.

I'll tell you because they didn't adapt. They continued to act as if THEY

are the pillar of all information and it'll be news to you when they say it

will be... and you'll take it their way and you'll like it.



and now they're paying the price. Sad? yes. As it should be? Absolutely.



Now, sense you posed the hypothetical, let me tell you exactly what I do.

Because I'm doing it now.



I've been up here in the upper Midwest working for my current employer for

15 years. I was their first editor and I did a great job. When they decided

they wanted to get into online, they asked me to handle the content. And I

did another great job. I invented new ways to tell stories

online...Minnesota Fantasy legislature and Select A Candidate.



and a few weeks ago they asked me to start something new (for us), an online

host/blog that makes the news more personal....that changes the way  (once I

get it perfected) newsrooms relate to the audience. It debuted last night 

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/



Now, i have to tell you I am VERY concerned about this new role because it's

full of risk in a business on short margins. I've spent many sleepless

nights the last few weeks wondering what I'll do if it doens't work out.

Even considering stopping the RV project to put more emergency funds away.



So what do I do? I work hard and I try to shape this thing and I try to make

it as popular as I've made the other things I've worked on here.



Do I appreciate having a job? You bet. Do I have a right to keep that job?

Absolutely not. I have to EARN my way right up until the day I retire.



If I lose my job tomorrow, I'm 53 in a dying industry... I probably won't be

able to get another job that will pay me as much as I make now. So I'll do

the best I can, work at Home Depot if I have to, may be shop an article or

two, cut some expenses, and try to figure out a niche that I can fill in a

competitive world.



This is the way life is. We can either waste our energy wish it weren't so.

Or we do what we can to make it better.



By the way, the broad sweeping generalization of "today's kids" make me want

to throw up.  



Y'all need to stop your whining and stop looking at everyone else as the

source of your problems. Your closets are full of shirts make overseas, your

garages have foreign cars... your tool chests are full of stuff made in

China and nobody put any of those things there but you.



Can we get to talking about building freakin' RVs now?



Do not archive

_________________
C. Stone (RV8iator)

tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Great post Bob.

   

 And to make it RV related I will note that my RV got built, modified, and my business started (RV related) all because of the shifting economy which caused a lay-off from my last 'real job' .  And what a hell of a fun ride (and education) it has been. 

  

 In 100 words or less:

  

 You have nothing but yourself, your ideals, your family and your friends.  Do the best you can with them.

 Your country is nothing but a coincidence of where you were born or find yourself in.  It may be a lucky one or not so lucky.   You may feel great reverence for it but it is as likely to crush you like a bug in the gears of an uncaring machine as it is to come to your rescue. If it crushed you, don't waste your time blaming 'your country'.  If it came to your rescue, aim your gratitude a little higher.   

  

 Tracy Crook

 RV-4 1700 hours of Hmmmm........

  

  

 On Dec 1, 2007 4:38 PM, Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)>

//flop.  We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob".

  

//What do you do now?



Are you kidding me? do youknow what business I'm in? I'm in the mainstream

news business.  This isn't a hypothetical scenario, this is what we live 

with every day. The newsppaer industry is getting shredded. You know why?

They'll tell yo it's because of CraigsList and Facebook, and the Internet.

I'll tell you because they didn't adapt. They continued to act as if THEY 

are the pillar of all information and it'll be news to you when they say it

will be... and you'll take it their way and you'll like it.



and now they're paying the price. Sad? yes. As it should be? Absolutely. 



Now, sense you posed the hypothetical, let me tell you exactly what I do.

Because I'm doing it now.



I've been up here in the upper Midwest working for my current employer for

15 years. I was their first editor and I did a great job. When they decided 

they wanted to get into online, they asked me to handle the content. And I

did another great job. I invented new ways to tell stories

online...Minnesota Fantasy legislature and Select A Candidate.



and a few weeks ago they asked me to start something new (for us), an online 

host/blog that makes the news more personal....that changes the way  (once I

get it perfected) newsrooms relate to the audience. It debuted last night

 http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/



Now, i have to tell you I am VERY concerned about this new role because it's

full of risk in a business on short margins. I've spent many sleepless 

nights the last few weeks wondering what I'll do if it doens't work out.

Even considering stopping the RV project to put more emergency funds away.



So what do I do? I work hard and I try to shape this thing and I try to make 

it as popular as I've made the other things I've worked on here.



Do I appreciate having a job? You bet. Do I have a right to keep that job?

Absolutely not. I have to EARN my way right up until the day I retire. 



If I lose my job tomorrow, I'm 53 in a dying industry... I probably won't be

able to get another job that will pay me as much as I make now. So I'll do

the best I can, work at Home Depot if I have to, may be shop an article or 

two, cut some expenses, and try to figure out a niche that I can fill in a

competitive world.



This is the way life is. We can either waste our energy wish it weren't so.

Or we do what we can to make it better. 



By the way, the broad sweeping generalization of "today's kids" make me want

to throw up.



Y'all need to stop your whining and stop looking at everyone else as the

source of your problems. Your closets are full of shirts make overseas, your 

garages have foreign cars... your tool chests are full of stuff made in

China and nobody put any of those things there but you.



Can we get to talking about building freakin' RVs now?



Do not archive 

  

  [quote][b]

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Does this kinda sound like "Social Security" thinking from the same era ?.    KABONG  HRII 



"And did you know that they are in this position because they bought into their very on self-designed pyramid scheme by not funding accounts while the workers were employed in order to cover these expenses, so that they must now pay these expenses out of current sales?"

Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

In a message dated 12/2/2007 10:40:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     You have nothing but yourself, your ideals, your family and your    friends.  Do the best you can with them.

   Your country is nothing but a coincidence of where you were born or find    yourself in.  It may be a lucky one or not so lucky.   You may    feel great reverence for it but it is as likely to crush you like a bug in the    gears of an uncaring machine as it is to come to your rescue. If it    crushed you, don't waste your time blaming 'your country'.  If it came to    your rescue, aim your gratitude a little  higher. 

	


 

 =====================================

  

 Nicely articulated, and I would add that the most striking thing about the  universe is its indifference.

  

 Do not archive.

  

 -GV





  [quote][b]

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

 	  Quote: 	
		  From:  "Bob Collins" 

<bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)> 

Subject: 

Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

  >> From: gmcjetpilot

 	  Quote: 	
		  >"THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's"

  >If you're not flying LSAs, what do you care 

 	  Quote: 	
		  what engine is used to power them?

  I care because I care about the US economy & 

keeping Jobs in America. Call me a fool or 

nationalistic but the LSA weight is so low it 

negated the use of standard O200's and O235's. 

That is stupid. The Rotax is not better, safer or 

easier to maintain. The US FED LAWS should 

not exclude US products. What are you a LSA 

dealer? How many LSA's from the USA is China 

going to buy? ZERO. Wake up. America is a BIG 

country with frankly heavy people; the LSA 

"specs" are for EUROPE not  America. I'm sick 

of changing laws to favor foreign markets while 

penalizing America's. 100 or 200 lbs more would 

have made little Lycs and Continentals viable 

for LSA's while giving two real people (not 120lb folks)

a chance to fly a LSA's legally, with more than a 

cup of fuel. How much do you weigh? DO the math. 

You need a lawnmower eng to meet max wt. honestly.

So LSA's are underpowered and will be flown over 

gross routinely with two adults. Forget bags. Yea  

isn't that great! NO. The LSA FAR's where to favor 

this class made for the Euro airplane/engine industry. 

Would an extra 100 kgs made a LSA harder to 

fly or more dangerous? NO. I guarantee LSA's 

will not be flown legally in the USA w/ 2 adults UP 

because most adult males weigh 160-190 lbs. 

People are not only getting fatter but taller and 

larger. I'll have to stop lifting weights and lose

20 lbs of muscle to  fly a LSA. DO THE MATH.

It's a ridiculous category that DOES not fit the 

AMERICAN MARKET. The REGS where written 

to exclude Cessna 140's, Cherokees 140's & Piper

Tripacers & other existing US planes (& RV's) that 

could be LSA's with a higher gross, BUT THAT 

WOULD HAVE KILLED THE MARKET FOR THE 

EURO Planes. It was not done for safety / engineering, 

just politics and business but Euro business, not US. 

At least TCM is making a super light O200 for the 

LSA market, which I think Cessna will use. They 

probably will ship work that out of the country as well.

  >This debate reminds me of the old debates when 

 	  Quote: 	
		  shopping malls sprung up on the outskirts of 

towns and then the downtowns declined.  Lots 

of people kvetched about the decline of 

downtowns, and all of them were in a position

to do something about it  when it mattered: shop 

downtown.

  WHAT? What kind of 'straw-man' argument is 

that. STICK TO THE POINT. The fact is when I 

call for TECH support, I get a heavy Indian 

accent and his name is "BOB" (really a lie, they 

intentionally make up a western names, when their 

real name is Goop-ta.). "BOB" sucks and knows 

less about the issue than I do. Therefore I don't 

buy their products any more. YOU HAVE A 

PROBLEM WITH THAT? They really suck. 

Than I called tech support and it get an 

American in America. WOW! What a pleasant 

experience. I'm sick of people HATING 

America or thinking other nations do better work. 

I worked w/ Italian, Japanese, Australian and no 

one works harder than AMERICANS, so bite me. 

The foreign worker is not better, they are not more 

competent, just low paid. CHINA, lead in toys, 

heard about it? YOU approve I'm sure. Fact is its 

about  corporate GREED. It's not competition.

 	  Quote: 	
		  If Lycoming announces tomorrow that their 

engines are going to be built in Germany or 

France, are you going to park YOUR airplane?

  Again YOU'RE making BS arguments that are 

illogical and obfuscating the POINT. Cessna 

could easily make the plane here and DO it cost 

effectively. It's not like the design or quality will 

be better. It's about making an extra nickel so the 

CEO can get another $10 million bonus. IT'S 

JUST GREED because the bean counter figured 

out they could REALLY make a killing by going 

to China. That's short term vision, the market is 

the US, but no one will be able to buy them; 

no one will have a job. I have masters in 

Engineering and 4 Jet type ratings and 5 

instructor ratings. I get great money and could 

make more consulting and have. I DO think 

protecting US  JOB's and FAIR TRADE are 

important. Right now its NOT FAIR. America is 

getting screwed. We buy all their crap and they 

buy NOTHING from us! GET A CLUE. The 

Japanese at least started factories in the US. As 

far as Boeing, China buys LOTS of jets, so I 

don't have a problem with them sharing work 

with China a big Boeing customer. However Boeing 

keeps all the engineering and technology in 

America, which is smart. How many Cessna 

LSA's is China going to BUY? ZERO. 

PS The Euro & German Mark are so high against  

the USD, it makes their products and services too 

expensive to produce there or buy here. Look at

Airbus. They give their stuff away to get into our  

markets. Airbus planes suck, they're just cheap.  

How many A320 nose wheels have fallen off ? 

American products are better. I'm not going to 

apologize to you for my opinion. If  their companies 

are making something better, fine, but often its NOT 

  better, just cheaper. Airbus customer support sucks. 

  Buy Boeing.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I didn't think so.

  WOW you told me off, didn't you.

  >The response to competition isn't to stifle it. It's 

 	  Quote: 	
		  to be the beneficiary of it, by being better. My 

guess is you folks aren't worried that the stuff 

coming from China is cheap junk. You're 

worried that it won't be. 

  Stop attributing words and opinions to me that I 

NEVER SAID or THOUGHT OF. Your debate 

skills are either based on ignorance or 

obfuscation. AGAIN LEAD IN TOYS. Do you 

not read a news papers or even watch TV news?

  >Everyone points to Detroit as what happens 

 	  Quote: 	
		  because of foreign competition. Nonsense. 

Detroit's automakers spent the  first half of the 

last generation building stuff people didn't want 

and the last half trying to change the laws so it 

didn't matter.

  THERE YOU GO AGAIN. The Japanese had a 

better product THEY DESIGNED AND MADE. 

I dive two Auras and a Porsche. I could get a 

Ford for a 1/4 the price but pay the premium for 

the product, that's fine. US companies & workers 

MUST compete, NO ONE SAID DIFFERENT. 

However I'm for some intelligent protectionism. 

We have given the store AWAY for Corporate 

GREED. If you deny that you are dishonest and 

incapable of having an intelligent discourse. 

THAT IS A FACT. The problem is we GIVE the 

technology away, the jobs away and allow them 

to violate laws and fair play. WHY? Greed, greed, 

greed and only a few are getting rich. Americans 

should just boycott companies and products made 

abroad. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE AFRAID OF. 

Who do you work  for Mr. Bob Collins? I'm going to 

guess you make money off of foreign trade or 

are in management? Of course you're against workers 

I'm NOT going to laugh when they fire you for a 

foreign manger who works for 50% of your salary

and speaks 4 languages. Look at programmer jobs, 

shipped overseas. Foreign programmers code top 

secret US government service programs. SMART? 

I think not.

  >And they still haven't learned their lesson. I get 

 	  Quote: 	
		  to dictate what I'll buy based on whatever 

factors *I* want to consider. If you want my 

business, satisfy me. If you can't, don't try to 

limit my choices.

  YES consumers and workers NEED to send a 

message when the CEO makes 50,000 times what 

the lowest paid makes, something stinks. When 

they mess up and still get a $50,000,000.00 

bonus, something is WRONG. Again you'll  not 

admit this immoral corruption, for the lack of a 

better word GREED. Greed is NOT good. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  The American Way is to be better. So stop 

complaining. Be better.

  What a BIG comment, America GET BETTER, 

stop complaining. Hey I'm RICH. I worked hard to 

get advanced degrees and pay for training to make 

a living flying. However from a selfish stand 

point you are darn right, I want passengers with 

good jobs so they can afford to fly on my airline. 

The CHINA workers are not buying airline tickets. 

STOP hiding behind lies, straw man arguments 

and self righteous indignation. What do you do 

for a living? Yes SOME times trade protection is 

needed. Right now CHINA is exploiting America 

and the Captains of Corporations are gladly 

exploiting them for ONLY THERE Benefit. That 

is bull. China is in violation and Americans lose.

I consulted to Pratt & Whitney, its  farming out 

as much work abroad as it can. They're having all 

kinds of problems with vendors & who can't make 

parts for the promised price. What does P&W do, 

bail them out, while reducing their US workforce 

further & health care coverage for engineers and all 

employees (except executives of course). NICE!

A NATION NOT WILLING OR ABLE TO 

PROTECT ITS BOARDERS, MARKETS AND 

SECURITY INTEREST IS DOOMED. WAKE UP. 

Trade is GREAT, FAIR TRADE, not just mass 

exporting of Jobs. I have worked abroad and I can 

tell you America is the greatest country on Planet 

Earth. We have the best workers and America is 

worth protecting. Boycott CESSNA. You work for 

Cessna don't you Bob? Teach corporations a lesson.

  BUY AMERICA MADE PRODUCTS

  I'm writing my Reps and Cessna, Sorry Mr. Bob 

Collins. I don't buy your arguments, because its just 

propaganda and  rhetoric that corporations repeat, 

devoid of facts. If its good for America its good for 

the American people, but the people are getting screwed. 

That's a fact. I'm NOT sorry about worrying about 

American workers more than ones in China. America 

is too nice, generous & trusting. Look at past & recent 

history of US corporate leaders & politicians. DO YOU 

TRUST THEM?

  Sincerely, Proud to be American and protect her for the People by the People, not other governments, individual politicians, parties or corporations who claim they are doing it for the people. Wake up folks. We don't buy their CRAP than they will get the message. Write Cessna, write your Reps. Cessna CAN make the plane here easily and should in MY OPINION.

  do not archive

        Be a better pen pal.   [quote][b]

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Not in any shape, form or fashion.



It was to be part of the employees' deferred income package, just like a 

typical sports figure's deferred income package or the pension most of 

us *earn* while spending our productive years helping our employer make 

a profit.



If you contract with the military to serve and possibly fight for your 

country for 20 years, and as part of your compensation they agree to 

send you a retirement check & take care of your medical needs each month 

when you retire, is that 'Social Security'? When they refuse you 

treatment in a VA hospital, as is currently happening to a lot of 

veterans right now, is that OK with you?



If you fix my plumbing and I decide not to pay you because I didn't plan 

for life's little inconveniences, is that OK with you?



You might think that those auto workers were over paid, but willing 

purchasers (GM & other mfgrs) and willing sellers (the workers) agreed 

to a price in a free market. Now, after several decades of service, the 

mfgrs want out of paying the contract price. Guess who's going to pay. 

You and I are, because our American government is using our (future) tax 

money by borrowing from China and Saudi Arabia to bail out these 

programs while the mfgrs walk away.



Charlie

(I have no dog in that hunt, except for my share of the tax burden, but 

my state just *paid* Nissan to build a plant here, and it will be 

shuttered up & deserted before we recover the concessions we made to get 

them here. Can someone please explain how it's free market capitalism 

when governments take people's land, give it to multinational 

corporations, then give them decades-long  preferential tax treatment?)



jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Does this kinda sound like "Social Security" thinking from the same

 era ?.    KABONG  HRII

 

 "And did you know that they are in this position because they bought

 into their very on self-designed pyramid scheme by not funding

 accounts while the workers were employed in order to cover these

 expenses, so that they must now pay these expenses out of current

 sales?"

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

//easier to  maintain. The US FED LAWS should 

not exclude US products. 

  

 They don't.   If the LSA market is there, U.S.  companies have the opportunity to build engines to accomodate it. It's their  choice.  We'll see.

  

 Hopefully, now that I think of it, U.S. companies are  working hard to find the next generation of aircraft  engine. 

  

 Do not archive

  

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

// important. Right now its NOT  FAIR. America is 

getting screwed. We buy all their crap and they 

buy  NOTHING from us! GET A CLUE.  

  

 One of the problems of these sorts of discussions is it  eventually degenerates to this sort of  emotion that tends to lead to  hyperbole. Entertaining, I have to admit, but not entirely enlightening.  China is #4 in U.S. exports behind Canada, Mexico, and Japan. Just last  week, China announced it will eliminate subsidies and tax rebates that have  boosted its exports, a recognition that in matters of trade, it has to play by  the rules. 

  

 Van's has been making QBs overseas for years. They are, as  near as I can tell, a good product. I presume they were made there partly for  economic reasons and I know the RV QB owners appreciate it. I know this because  every January there's a thread here about the annual Van's price increases. As a  result of those QBs, I see businesses, like Tony Partain's, springing up to  deliver them. THAT's the kind ingenuity that I expect to thrive in a global  economy. And good for him!

  

 These are all choices and, for the most part, we are all  better off when we have freedoms and choice.

  

 America is still a place in which anyone who works hard  enough can succeed.  One can't wave the flag and at the same time make an  argument that it's not.

  

 My dad was part of a generation that went off, won a  war,  came home , shut the hell up about it and went to work.  The  whining today is fueled  by a pessimism  in what we can achieve.   It disgraces the greatest generation. 

  

 If you disagree with that, that's entirely up to  you. If you want to call me a jerk and clueless, that's OK with me too.  It's all part of the country's cloth. And part of the entertainment.  (g)

  

 Do not archive

  

  

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

billoves2fly(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Here. 23 years and 100% disabled from US Army!



 ---

andygold(at)rkymtnhi.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

I've never heard it said better.  Thank you Tracy.

  

   	  Quote: 	
		     You have nothing but yourself, your ideals, your family and your    friends.  Do the best you can with them.

   Your country is nothing but a coincidence of where you were born or    find yourself in.  It may be a lucky one or not so lucky.   You    may feel great reverence for it but it is as likely to crush you like a bug in    the gears of an uncaring machine as it is to come to your rescue. If it    crushed you, don't waste your time blaming 'your country'.  If it came to    your rescue, aim your gratitude a little  higher. 

	


  

 The issue today is that so many of us believe that because our accident of  birth, we are privy to some sort of entitlement. We are  not!  Read the Declaration of Independence.  All we are entitled  to is the "pursuit" of happiness".  Nothing guarantees your success.

  

 Now go read Tom Freidman's book The World is Flat.  But don't make the  common  mistake by quarelling with the author's take of world  history.  The book is not about the world.  It is about you.   Friedman says that to succeed today you need not only compete with the guy down  the block, but equally with the guy across the ocean.  You need a better  education.  You need to work harder.  You need to be more  innovative.  You need to be more adaptable.  While you are sitting on  the couch watching the game, some guy in India is earning his second  degree.  That's why jobs are going overseas.

  

 This country is still great because anyone here who wants to work hard  enough and smart enough has available to him the tools and opportunity to  succeed in anything.

  

 I consider myself a good example.  14 years ago when a newspaper I  worked for closed I found myself unemployed. Instead of spending the  next few months whining how life was unfair, my wife and I immediately got to  work.  I was building my RV-6 and was frustrated about finding  RVator articles I remembered reading.  So we turned the problem into  an opportunity and received permission from Van to create and sell a compilation  of these articles.  It sold so well that with the next edition we added Bob  Nuckoll's book, Sam James's videos, and a few other things. Now we stock over  500 items, operate 11 retail catalogs, have pioneered e-Book distribution in our  industry, wholesale all over the world (including China and India), and provide  steady work and good pay for 5 families.  I do not consider myself wealthy  in any sense, but I make enough to (as the president says) "put food on my  family", gas in my plane (an RV - not a Gulfstream), and have good health  insurance.  And, I never ever give a moment's worry about losing my  job.

  

 So stop complaining about China.  China represents over 1 billion  people starving for the American dream.  Your job, should you choose to  accept it, is to go out and sell it to them.

  

 There are no problems.  There are only opportunities.

  

 Andy Gold

 Builder's Bookstore

 Aircraft Technical Book Company

  

 do not archive

  

  

 [quote]    

   

[b]

rblassett(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising

Well said Andy Gold and Tracy...very thought  provoking.

  

 --

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