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emrath(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Here's a question from a fellow member in our local EAA Chapter.
"Garmin has finally released new software for its 500W and 400W navigators.
I
had it installed today in my 430W and 530W. With this release, my GPSs are
now certified as a sole source navigation device. One benefit of this is
that my alternate airports can have only GPS approaches.
A question I have is do I still need to do the 30-day accuracy checks on my
VOR receivers? I assume the answer is no unless I plan to use my VOR
receivers for navigation. I can't remember the last time I did that and have
no plans to do so in the future. I've always used the GPS even when flying
on airways. At Smyrna (MQY) it's not a big deal since there is a VOT on the
field and it's usually working. There are lots of airports though that don't
have a VOT and you can't receive the VOR on the ground. In that case you
can't launch into IMC unless you have done an accuracy check. Presumably I'm
now exempt from that if my GPS is functioning.
Anyone know the answer?"
Marty in Brentwood TN
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 727 Location: FAIRFAX VA
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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12/7/2007
Hello Marty, You forwarded: "Garmin has finally released new software for
its 500W and 400W navigators. I had it installed today in my 430W and 530W.
With this release, my GPSs are
now certified as a sole source navigation
device....................skip..........."
Can you please give us a little more information on this software update?
1) How is this software update identified?
2) How does one go about getting it installed in their 430W?
3) Where is there an explanation of the need for this update?
Thanks,
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
-----------------------------
Time: 07:38:27 PM PST US
From: "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net>
Subject: IFR instrument check question
Here's a question from a fellow member in our local EAA Chapter.
"Garmin has finally released new software for its 500W and 400W navigators.
I
had it installed today in my 430W and 530W. With this release, my GPSs are
now certified as a sole source navigation device. One benefit of this is
that my alternate airports can have only GPS approaches.
A question I have is do I still need to do the 30-day accuracy checks on my
VOR receivers? I assume the answer is no unless I plan to use my VOR
receivers for navigation. I can't remember the last time I did that and have
no plans to do so in the future. I've always used the GPS even when flying
on airways. At Smyrna (MQY) it's not a big deal since there is a VOT on the
field and it's usually working. There are lots of airports though that don't
have a VOT and you can't receive the VOR on the ground. In that case you
can't launch into IMC unless you have done an accuracy check. Presumably I'm
now exempt from that if my GPS is functioning.
Anyone know the answer?"
Marty in Brentwood TN
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Bret Smith
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 178 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Good Morning OC,
Since I have not yet seen an answer to your timely question, may I interject a bit?
I have not yet had the update performed so what I do contribute will be from a rather faulty memory and hearsay. However I will try my best. Answers will be inserted in your text as best I can.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 6:38:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, bakerocb(at)cox.net writes:
Quote: | Hello Marty, You forwarded: "Garmin has finally released new software for
its 500W and 400W navigators. I had it installed today in my 430W and 530W.
With this release, my GPSs are
now certified as a sole source navigation
device....................skip..........."
Can you please give us a little more information on this software update?
1) How is this software update identified?
Only a wild guess here, but I am reasonably confident you will be able to check it at the start up page.
2) How does one go about getting it installed in their 430W?
Take it to your dealer and they will update it in place. My informant's tell me it takes about ten minutes to do the update and an hour or less for the paperwork.
3) Where is there an explanation of the need for this update?
That's a bit tougher. My recollection is that there was a service letter, an AD, or both, which came out a year or two ago telling us that the Garmin 480 was no longer approved for sole source use, but that such use would be reinstated after an update was done. When the "W" versions were issued, they contained a similar statement within their paperwork. I don't have mine here just now, but it did mention the restriction. This software update does whatever it takes to bring the sets up to sole source standards.
I read a blurb from Garmin a few weeks ago and it did mention other improvements as well.
Any help at all? -- Old Bob
Thanks,
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[quote][b]
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bobf(at)feldtman.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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I'm no expert, but I figure if you have a VOR, you'd have to do the checks as per FARs - whether you ever turn them on in flight or not - picky thing, but the ramp checkers are picky.
bobf
On 12/6/07, Emrath <emrath(at)comcast.net (emrath(at)comcast.net)> wrote: [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net (emrath(at)comcast.net)>
Here's a question from a fellow member in our local EAA Chapter.
"Garmin has finally released new software for its 500W and 400W navigators.
I
had it installed today in my 430W and 530W. With this release, my GPSs are
now certified as a sole source navigation device. One benefit of this is
that my alternate airports can have only GPS approaches.
A question I have is do I still need to do the 30-day accuracy checks on my
VOR receivers? I assume the answer is no unless I plan to use my VOR
receivers for navigation. I can't remember the last time I did that and have
no plans to do so in the future. I've always used the GPS even when flying
on airways. At Smyrna (MQY) it's not a big deal since there is a VOT on the
field and it's usually working. There are lots of airports though that don't
have a VOT and you can't receive the VOR on the ground. In that case you
can't launch into IMC unless you have done an accuracy check. Presumably I'm
now exempt from that if my GPS is functioning.
Anyone know the answer?"
Marty in Brentwood TN
[b]
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ornerycuss2001(at)yahoo.c Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Interesting question. SFAR 97 allows the exclusive use of GPS for IFR navigation in Alaska so if the person asking the question flies only in Alaska the answer would be obvious.
You don't state if his airplane is certified or experimental. Most experimental aircraft come with operating limitations that specifically call out FAR 91.205 for IFR operations and FAR 91.205 requires navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities to be used. Many people read that as a requirement for VOR capability in the aircraft (including EAA, I believe).
FAR 91.171 requires the VOR check every 30 days for "...aircraft under IFR using the VOR system of radio navigation....". No indication what you have to do if you don't use the VOR system of radio navigation.
This is a case where the regulations need to catch up with the state of the art. It would appear VOR equipment is required but you don't have to check it unless you're going to use it.
One question. What are you going to do if you get a RAIM message from your GPS system that you can't shoot the approach and then have to use VOR to complete the flight? In my opinion it would be worthwhile to keep the VOR checks up to date until the regulations catch up.
Greg
Emrath <emrath(at)comcast.net> wrote:[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Emrath"
Here's a question from a fellow member in our local EAA Chapter.
"Garmin has finally released new software for its 500W and 400W navigators.
I
had it installed today in my 430W and 530W. With this release, my GPSs are
now certified as a sole source navigation device. One benefit of this is
that my alternate airports can have only GPS approaches.
A question I Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [quote][b]
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deej(at)deej.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Buckaroo Banzai wrote:
Quote: | You don't state if his airplane is certified or experimental. Most
experimental aircraft come with operating limitations that
specifically call out FAR 91.205 for IFR operations and FAR 91.205
requires navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities to be
used. Many people read that as a requirement for VOR capability in
the aircraft (including EAA, I believe).
|
Doesn't the WAAS system have ground based transmitters in addition to
the satellite signal to give it the extra precision? If so, those may
count for this requirement.
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Good Afternoon Dj,
This will get us into semantics, but the WAAS equipped aircraft does not receive data directly from any ground station. There are stations on the ground that send corrections to the satellites for the WAAS receivers. Those corrections are then sent back to the airplane, but the airplane equipment gets all of it's signal from the satellite.
Make any sense at all?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 12:54:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, deej(at)deej.net writes:
Quote: | Doesn't the WAAS system have ground based transmitters in addition to
the satellite signal to give it the extra precision? If so, those may
count for this requirement.
-Dj
|
hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
[quote][b]
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deej(at)deej.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: | Good Afternoon Dj,
This will get us into semantics, but the WAAS equipped aircraft does
not receive data directly from any ground station. There are stations
on the ground that send corrections to the satellites for the WAAS
receivers. Those corrections are then sent back to the airplane, but
the airplane equipment gets all of it's signal from the satellite.
Make any sense at all?
|
Yes, that is how I thought it worked. I found this on the Garmin site:
http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html
and this on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System
Since there are "ground facilities" that are a part of the WAAS
system, I wonder if it could be argued that a WAAS equipped aircraft
might meet the "navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities
to be used" part of 91.205. If nothing else, it adds another twist...
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
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Bruce(at)glasair.org Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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I don't see what the big deal is, if you have dual VOR receivers just run a
cross check between the 2 and record it along with the date and your
initials in a small note book you keep in the airplane. Something to occupy
your time on those long cross country flights.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
--
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Hi Dj,
Here is my take.
As long as you have the latest software in your "W" receiver, it is approved for sole means navigation.
The FEDs say we need "navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities to be used" in Part 91.205. Since we are using no ground facilities, we need no navigation equipment that uses it!
Whadda Ya think?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 2:57:36 P.M. Central Standard Time, deej(at)deej.net writes:
Quote: | Since there are "ground facilities" that are a part of the WAAS
system, I wonder if it could be argued that a WAAS equipped aircraft
might meet the "navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities
to be used" part of 91.205. If nothing else, it adds another twist...
-Dj
|
hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
[quote][b]
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Good Afternoon Bruce,
Did I miss something? I thought the question was whether or not we need to carry any VOR equipment.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 3:28:42 P.M. Central Standard Time, Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:
Quote: | I don't see what the big deal is, if you have dual VOR receivers just run a
cross check between the 2 and record it along with the date and your
initials in a small note book you keep in the airplane. Something to occupy
your time on those long cross country flights.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
|
[quote][b]
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Bruce(at)glasair.org Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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I think your tilting at windmills. I for one, don’t want to get into that kind of pissing contest with the Feds.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
--
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Bruce(at)glasair.org Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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If it’s in the airplane and you’re on an IFR FP and are ramp checked, the FAA is going to ask for the VOR check log along with the other paperwork.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
--
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Bruce(at)glasair.org Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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One other thing, the FAR’s specifically require the log to be ‘in the airplane’.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
--
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frank.hinde(at)hp.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Not even that.
You can also use your W for en route flight with an expired database provided you have verified the en-route waypoints.
I think that means you can use it but you can't shoot GPS approaches with an expired database.
presumably that means you can shppt VOR and ILS approaches with an expired 'base...But that is a little off topic to the original question.
Either way if you are using GPS (with or without an expired database) only to navigate and you don't use VOR's then in theory you don't need to do the accuracy checks.
For me personally I really can't justify the cost of the database upgrades and so I use my buddy's month old chip and we rotate...I just don't do GPS approaches with it.
Frank
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:37 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: IFR instrument check question
Hi Dj,
Here is my take.
As long as you have the latest software in your "W" receiver, it is approved for sole means navigation.
The FEDs say we need "navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities to be used" in Part 91.205. Since we are using no ground facilities, we need no navigation equipment that uses it!
Whadda Ya think?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 2:57:36 P.M. Central Standard Time, deej(at)deej.net writes:
Quote: | Since there are "ground facilities" that are a part of the WAAS
system, I wonder if it could be argued that a WAAS equipped aircraft
might meet the "navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities
to be used" part of 91.205. If nothing else, it adds another twist...
-Dj
|
hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
[quote]
.matronics.com/contribution
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ics.com
[b]
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khorton01(at)rogers.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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That is the way I read the regs. The wording is quite simple, and
clear. If you don't plan to use VOR, then no cross check is required.
But, just to play devil's advocate, even though there is no regulatory
need to do this cross check, why not do it? That way, if the GPS ever
craps out on you, or WAAS is not available for some reason (a single
satellite failure could kill WAAS, depending on where you are), you
can legally use the VOR to get back home under IFR. If you haven't
done and logged the VOR checks, and the GPS dies, then you are
grounded until the weather allows VFR. If the VOR was not working
properly, I would want to know about it.
Kevin Horton
On 7-Dec-07, at 16:37 , BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: | Hi Dj,
Here is my take.
As long as you have the latest software in your "W" receiver, it is
approved for sole means navigation.
The FEDs say we need "navigation equipment suitable for the ground
facilities to be used" in Part 91.205. Since we are using no
ground facilities, we need no navigation equipment that uses it!
Whadda Ya think?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 2:57:36 P.M. Central Standard Time, deej(at)deej.net
writes:
Since there are "ground facilities" that are a part of the WAAS
system, I wonder if it could be argued that a WAAS equipped aircraft
might meet the "navigation equipment suitable for the ground
facilities
to be used" part of 91.205. If nothing else, it adds another
twist...
|
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deej(at)deej.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Bruce Gray wrote:
Quote: |
I think your tilting at windmills. I for one, don’t want to get into
that kind of pissing contest with the Feds.
|
I'm merely interested because I am curious and want to learn. I really
don't see where there is any sort of "pissing contest" going on...
As far as I can see we are just having a friendly discussion about the
FARs and topics relating to navigation equipment that can be used in
aircraft, and whether the rules would allow a WAAS GPS system to be used
as a primary source of navigation without a NAV radio installed.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
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frank.hinde(at)hp.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Oh come on now, they write all the gargantuan rules and you don't want to have fun finding a loophole in them?
Where's yer sense of adventure Bruce?...
Frank
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:52 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR instrument check question
I think your tilting at windmills. I for one, don’t want to get into that kind of pissing contest with the Feds.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 4:37 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: IFR instrument check question
Hi Dj,
Here is my take.
As long as you have the latest software in your "W" receiver, it is approved for sole means navigation.
The FEDs say we need "navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities to be used" in Part 91.205. Since we are using no ground facilities, we need no navigation equipment that uses it!
Whadda Ya think?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 2:57:36 P.M. Central Standard Time, deej(at)deej.net writes:
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Since there are "ground facilities" that are a part of the WAAS
system, I wonder if it could be argued that a WAAS equipped aircraft
might meet the "navigation equipment suitable for the ground facilities
to be used" part of 91.205. If nothing else, it adds another twist...
-Dj |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: IFR instrument check question |
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Good Evening Bruce,
However, if your are on an IFR flight Plan and do not have any VOR equipment on board or if the VOR equipment you have is suitably configured and placarded as in operative, you are still perfectly legal.
I think you are fighting a battle that does not exist.
If you really want to get into picking belly button lint, I don't think even an operative VOR has to have VOR check listed as long as you have not used it for IFR flight and can show that you do not intend it to be used it for IFR flight.
I think doing so is about as dumb as getting into this argument, but if I somehow found myself at a hearing on the subject, I'll bet a milk shake I would win!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/7/2007 4:03:22 P.M. Central Standard Time, Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:
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If it’s in the airplane and you’re on an IFR FP and are ramp checked, the FAA is going to ask for the VOR check log along with the other paperwork.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
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