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Oil capacity

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jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Oil capacity

Can someone tell me how much oil an O-540 E4  B5 engine should hold?

  

 My engine will only keep about 8.5 quarts (dipstick  reading when cool) and deposits the rest on the belly and tail.   

 Mods to the engine are:  Fuel Injection, 10:1  pistons, inverted oil system

 Aircraft: Harmon Rocket II

  

 Thanks,

 Jim

  

  [quote][b]

flyinwithme99(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: Oil capacity

It is not unusual, and is generally the rule, that your Lycoming 540 will not keep down the full 12 quart capacity in the sump.  Adding to your particular situation is the inverted system and what you sacrifice in oil during transition from right side up to right side down...!

   

  Each engine/airframe combination on every piston engine aircraft I have ever encountered has a certain oil level happiness somewhere under the total capacity of the engine.  It is generally understood that it there is no real physical explanation for this except it is agreed it has to do with the design of the breather system of the engine in combination with the breather systems that are part of the airframes they are installed on.

   

  It is not dangerous at all to run your 540 (at) 8.5 quarts.  The only reason I would put any more oil in your sump would be if you are planning on doing some aerobatics, or going  on a longer trip, (I would guess that your airplane doesn't have those kind of legs anyway).

   

  Another thing I might mention is it would be a good idea to check the accuracy of the dipstick.  This is best accomplished during the next oil change by adding oil a quart at a time....well I would guess you understand this concept... !



Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

  [quote]        Can someone tell me how much oil an O-540 E4 B5 engine should hold?

   

  My engine will only keep about 8.5 quarts (dipstick reading when cool) and deposits the rest on the belly and tail.

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Oil capacity

Thanks for your post.  You seem to discrbe my  engine well.  To clarify one issue.  It does not seem to matter if I  do acro or fly straight and level cruise, that oil gets pumped out and ends up  on the tail.  I currently have the over flow dropping on the exhaust pipe  to get burned but that is not working so well.

 I have calibrated my dipstick as each two quarts  were added so I feel the stick is accurate.

 Jim

 [quote]   ---

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Oil capacity

Jim,

 How long does it take your engine to  get down to 8.5qts from full, and once you "R" there  how fast/slow does it go down any further to 7qts, 6qts, etc.?   I will "hold" 12qts if never used,  but will "keep" certainly less then that when in operation. I would monitor  the engine's oil usage (burn & waste) and note when it stops to  puke oil on the belly. Then run it there (but do pay attention to the oil  level).  I read somewhere that the high oil capacity was a  requirement for endurance runs during certification, but the engine does  not necessarily be full to the gills for daily operations... 

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

archie97(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: Oil capacity

Without revealing too much regarding our racing  engines, one consideration

 would be to plumb the breather into your exhaust  collector. 

 If done properly, it can also enhance breathing by  generating a partial vacuum.

 [quote]   ---

flyinwithme99(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

Be careful thinking that a partial vacuum is desirable in the breather tube.  This can create more of a scavanging effect than is necessary...all the engine really needs is a "vent".



Archie <archie97(at)earthlink.net> wrote:  [quote]    Without revealing too much regarding our racing engines, one consideration

  would be to plumb the breather into your exhaust collector. 

  If done properly, it can also enhance breathing by generating a partial vacuum.

  [quote]  ---

flyinwithme99(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

Note that in Type Certificate Data sheet E-295 for your Lycoming Engine that there is a minumum safe oil quantity listed for different angles of pitch as follows:

   

  20 degrees nose up or down = 2.75 Quarts

  30 degrees nose up             = 4.0   Quarts

   

  Maybe this will give you some perspective and comfort when running 8.5 quarts.  Just plan your flying sessions considering duration and environment based on this information and enjoy a cleaner belly...!

   

  

"Konrad L. Werner" <klwerner(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote]        Jim,

  How long does it take your engine to get down to 8.5qts from full, and once you "R" there how fast/slow does it go down any further to 7qts, 6qts, etc.?  I will "hold" 12qts if never used, but will "keep" certainly less then that when in operation. I would monitor the engine's oil usage (burn & waste) and note when it stops to puke oil on the belly. Then run it there (but do pay attention to the oil level).  I read somewhere that the high oil capacity was a requirement for endurance runs during certification, but the engine does not necessarily be full to the gills for daily operations... 

   

  do not archive

  [quote]  ---

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

I just finished the 40 hour test period and the  engine is broken in as evidenced by the lower CHTs and EGTs.  My first  flight I started with 12 quarts, after shutdown, I had 8.  The  rest of it was apparently dumped as my rudder was covered in clean  oil.

 Since then, it seems that anything over 8.5 qts or  so, I loose it.  I just find it odd that the dipstick calls for 12 quarts  and I can't come close to that amount.  I have heard from several others  fellows now and the concensis seems to be, 8 quarts is ok.

 Thanks,

 Jim

  

 [quote]   ---

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

Jim,

 If it makes you feel any  better, the 4-cylinders call for full at 8qts, but realistically  anything over 6 - 7qts gets dumped overboard as well...

 Oilchanges do get a bit  cheaper if you don't fill it with a full 12qts and use just 9qts instead  and therefore not waste 3qts on the belly.

 Konrad

 [quote]   ---

archie97(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

Vacuum pumps are almost always used to generate  negative crankcase pressure in high  performance engines. Oil suction is controlled through system design.  

 In many cases, the  crankshaft oil seals are installed backwards. (depending on the amount of  vac)

 No elaboration needed here. If you are not familiar  with purpose, this will not become a 

 dissertation on the why and how. Just thought to  enlighten the unfamiliar.

 No further commentary from here

 Archie

 [quote]   ---

wbecker(at)centurytel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

Just  for info.

 I operate a an AEIO320, with the Christen inverted system, and  do some aerobatics. I loose just about 0 oil from the breather. The belly is  clean. Could you have a problem with the check valve in the Christen breather  tank?

 Bill B

 [quote]   ---

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

Well I don't think so.  I filled to 9 qts the  other day, flew crosscountry for 315 miles or 1.8 hours and there was a quart of  oil on the rudder and belly.  

 Thanks,

 Jim

 [quote]   ---

mike109g6(at)insideconnec
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: Oil capacity

I think that the 0-540 is trying to tell you that  all it will keep in the sump/engine at one time is 8.5qts.  No matter what  the op manual says, that's all your engine wants and if that is not BELOW  minimum operational capacity-it's OK.  EVERY engine has it's peculiar  aspects.

 Mike H

 [quote]   ---

glcasey

Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 23

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Oil capacity

It seems that this is always an interesting topic - or at least a  

topic of interest...



I've heard a number of explanations for the apparent increased oil  

consumption when full.  One that seems to make sense is that when the  

oil level is up to the gears in the accessory case the gears tend to  

"pump" the oil to the top.  At the very top is the camshaft gear  

which then deposits the oil into the blowby stream.  The engine will  

burn a lot more oil during takeoff than any other part of flight (low  

speed and high thrust).  I don't know if I buy that, but that's the  

story.  One thing that most engines are sensitive to is rpm - at high  

rpm more blowby is generated and therefore more oil is dumped  

overboard.  At high rpm the piston rings can start to lose control of  

oil on the cylinders and the engine will burn more oil.  I had a "L"  

engine that would burn a quart every 6 at 2400 but I could go at  

least 10 at 2200 rpm.  As far as oil capacity, note that most 540's  

have 12-quart sumps, but the L has an 8-quart sump in order to make  

room for the nose gear on the R182.  Why could Lycoming "arbitrarily"  

reduce the capacity to 8?  Maybe there was some logic as the max rpm  

for that engine was 2400 (lycoming builds other 2400-rpm engines with  

12-quart sumps, though.  The real high value for oil level comes from  

the oil consumption, aircraft endurance and convenience.  I fill my  

540 to 10 and never let it go below 8.  If I am at the home hangar I  

will put a quart in at 9, but if I am on my way home I will only put  

a quart in at 8.  Mine burns about a quart in 6 hours and my  

endurance is 6 hours, so I only need to have 1 more quart than the  

minimum to make the trip.  However, consider this:  If something  

happens (did happen to me once) that increases the oil burn  

dramatically, you will be very happy to have put in some extra oil.   

I had a 4-cylinder and broke a ring, burned about 3 quarts in less  

than an hour and landed with 4 quarts in the sump.



The 550 Continentals seem to come with either 8 or 12.  I think the  

turbo engines get 12 and the naturally-aspirated engines get 8.



Regarding pressure (or vacuum) in the crankcase - it doesn't matter  

much as the engine doesn't care - except... Very high rpm engines  

will consume a lot of power pumping blowby around the crankcase and  

reducing the pressure of those gasses will reduce the power consumed  

as Archie implied.  And take the case of the 2-cylinder BMW opposed  

engines.  Some or all (mine, at least) have a check valve in the vent  

that lets air out but not in.  Both pistons come in together,  

creating a very high flow in and out the breather.  By using a check  

valve the pressure in the crankcase is reduced and only the "fresh"  

blowby is pumped out the check valve.  The average pressure in the  

crankcase is much lower than atmospheric.  Regardless, the actual  

quantity of blowby will stay about the same.



Gary Casey

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Can someone tell me how much oil an O-540 E4 B5 engine should hold?



 My engine will only keep about 8.5 quarts (dipstick reading when cool)

 and deposits the rest on the belly and tail.

 Mods to the engine are:  Fuel Injection, 10:1 pistons, inverted oil

 system

 Aircraft: Harmon Rocket II



 Thanks,

 Jim

_________________
Gary Casey

glcasey

Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 23

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: Oil capacity

Jim,

I note that you have a Rocket and therefore the engine will be  

operating nose-high on the ground.  I'm not sure what effect that  

has, but it would put more oil in the gearcase.  Also, as I recall,  

the Christen inverted system uses the oil reservoir as an oil  

separator with the crankcase vent line being plumbed into it and  

therefore I wold expect not much oil would remain with the blowby.   

Someone report essentially no oil out the breather with such a  

system.  Not true?  I'm certainly not an inverted system expert.



Gary

Previous post:

    I just finished the 40 hour test period and the engine is broken in

as

   evidenced by the lower CHTs and EGTs.  My first flight I started with

12

   quarts, after shutdown, I had 8.  The rest of it was apparently  

dumped



   as my rudder was covered in clean oil.

    Since then, it seems that anything over 8.5 qts or so, I loose  

it.  I



   just find it odd that the dipstick calls for 12 quarts and I can't

come

   close to that amount.  I have heard from several others fellows now

and

   the concensis seems to be, 8 quarts is ok.

    Thanks,

    Jim

_________________
Gary Casey

flyinwithme99(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Oil capacity

I have noticed a couple of comments about oil being “in the gear case”.  Just wanted to mention that even with 12 quarts in the sump, there will be no oil residing in the accessory case where any of the geartrain is sitting in oil, even on tail dragger aircraft.  None of the gears are exposed to any oil as part of the reservoir.  These gears are lubricated by a couple of oil pressure ports for the idler gears and from oil that is pressurized and squeezes past the cam and crank bearing journals<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> wrote:  [quote]--> LycomingEngines-List message posted by: Gary Casey 

Jim,

I note that you have a Rocket and therefore the engine will be 

operating nose-high on the ground. I'm not  sure what effect that 

has, but it would put more oil in the gearcase. Also, as I recall, 

the Christen inverted system uses the oil reservoir as an oil 

separator with the crankcase vent line being plumbed into it and 

therefore I wold expect not much oil would remain with the blowby. 

Someone report essentially no oil out the breather with such a 

system. Not true? I'm certainly not an inverted system expert.



Gary

Previous post:

I just finished the 40 hour test period and the engine is broken in

as

evidenced by the lower CHTs and EGTs. My first flight I started with

12

quarts, after shutdown, I had 8. The rest of it was apparently 

dumped



as my rudder was covered in clean oil.

Since then, it seems that anything over 8.5 qts or so, I loose 

it. I



just find it odd that the dipstick calls for 12 quarts and I can't

come

close to that amount. I have heard from several others fellows      [quote][b]

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