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Short Changing Ourselves!!
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akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

A simple truth: Any product or service is worth exactly what you can

convince someone to pay for it.

Your last paragraph is essentially the same statement.  I've been told that

some of the things I've sold were priced way too high, and some of the

things that I have bought were way too high.  I've had folks attempt to

degrade the property up for sale, and attempt to embellish what they are

trying to sell.   The simple part of the equation is kind of like the

difference between rape and seduction.  That difference is salesmanship 

John Hart

Model IV

Latimer County, OK



--

buddcr(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]Don you make some great points. I Too have been bewildered why Kitfox are SO DAMNCHEAP!!!!According to some on supercub.org forum Kitfox are not real airplanes like cubs.....  HEll who wold want a cub that is 60 years old and got worse performances?Look at  it this way most CUBS cannot CARRY their won weight on top of empty weight.Can a Kitfox ?   -- Depends on empty weight of course.NEw Super sprt i think is about 700 lbs or so and it goes to 1550 ? MY  1050 is  550 empty on wheels and can carry me a nd passenger    450lbs plus18 gals of gas  (110lbs plus another 6 gals in  3  - 2 gal jerry ans bedind seatand about 700 emtpy on amphibs and can carry same 2 guys plus baggage plus 16 moregallons in floats  

 --add it up700 + 110 plus 450 + 96 lbs + case beer and food.  --yeah it adds up eh !!even takes  40 to 50 secdons to get off water ..... try loading a 65 HP cub to2300 to 2500 lbs. certainly for referance only  [/b] 	


Dave, 



I have a question? Are you saying your aircraft is 700lbs. on floats and you can carry 450lbs people plus 96lbs. of fuel plus 110lbs. of stuff in addition to that a case of beer and food?  Or where you talking about the new super sport?



Chris Budd

Kitfox Speedster Classic IV

VW 2180 210hrs

St. Louis, MO



 





       Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Chris, 

What I am saying is that that 700 empty Kitfox can carry it's  own weight of another 700lbs. 



Can a 65 HP  Cub carry it s own weight ?  



Dave 



 	  Quote: 	
		  add it up700 + 110 plus 450 + 96 lbs + case beer and food. --yeah it adds up eh !!even takes 40 to 50 secdons to get off water ..... try loading a 65 HP cub to2300 to 2500 lbs. certainly for referance onl

_________________
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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I thought you said you have the 1050 kitfox 4.  that makes you 350lbs over gross.   Hummmmmm....   .   If you have the 1200 that makes you 200 over gross.    Hummmmmm...     At least in my book 700+700=1400

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Mike, I see that you are shooting from the hip here.  try reading the original post .

I copied it below to save you having to looking back



Dave 



700 + 110 plus 450 + 96 lbs + case beer and food. --yeah it adds up eh !! 

even takes 40 to 50 secdons to get off water ..... try loading a 65 HP cub to 2300 to 2500 lbs. 

certainly for referance only <===DISCLAIMER  <big> 



Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!    



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Quote: 

Do you realize the cost of the 100 HP Rotax 912S just went up to $19,500 +/- by itself? I think some out there are treating the IVs like a toy – an ultralight maybe, and it is actually a real airplane. Look at the competition for Kitfoxes – they are LSAs which are either 60+ year old Piper Cubs/Vagabonds/Champs/Chiefs that are FABRIC airplanes that are selling for $20 to 30K (and generally need another $10K of work to be safe or really as flyable as any Kitfox),  



Don you make some great points. I Too have been bewildered why Kitfox are SO DAMN CHEAP!!!! 



According to some on supercub.org forum Kitfox are not real airplanes like cubs ..... HEll who wold want a cub that is 60 years old and got worse performances ? 



Look at it this way most CUBS cannot CARRY their won weight on top of empty weight. Can a Kitfox ? -- Depends on empty weight of course. 

NEw Super sprt i think is about 700 lbs or so and it goes to 1550 ? 

MY 1050 is 550 empty on wheels and can carry me a nd passenger 450lbs plus 18 gals of gas (110lbs plus another 6 gals in 3 - 2 gal jerry ans bedind seat 

and about 700 emtpy on amphibs and can carry same 2 guys plus baggage plus 16 more gallons in floats --add it up 

700 + 110 plus 450 + 96 lbs + case beer and food. --yeah it adds up eh !! 

even takes 40 to 50 secdons to get off water ..... try loading a 65 HP cub to 2300 to 2500 lbs. 

certainly for referance only <===DISCLAIMER  <big>

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

If 

you are that confident, why don't you post your tail number and 

address and we'll have the FAA come over and confirm your assertion? 

Shouldn't be a problem, right?  We could put this to bed right now 

and shut all the "experts" up.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ[/quote]



Wow what a statement, you are the type of person I stay away from.



It's people like you that give the FAA the power they have and harm aviation.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Who are you both referring too??



 	  Quote: 	
		  Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!   



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If 

you are that confident, why don't you post your tail number and 

address and we'll have the FAA come over and confirm your assertion? 

Shouldn't be a problem, right? We could put this to bed right now 

and shut all the "experts" up. 



Mike G. 

N728KF 

Phoenix, AZ 	
 



Wow what a statement, you are the type of person I stay away from. 



It's people like you that give the FAA the power they have and harm aviation. 

[/quote]

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

[quote="avidfox"] 	  Quote: 	
		   

It was recently posted.  

"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K tops...."  	
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  

  	  Quote: 	
		   

I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned) Kitfox for $15,000.  

It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL. 

It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time. 

As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says... 

"Now..., for the rest of the story....." 

  For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications unquestionable.  

  I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of "maintenance tests"....naturally.   

  My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight controls or entire airframes.   

  Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's, Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4 different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.  

Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot, 

  Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm, transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior, and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly.  

  Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.  

  For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another aircraft.   

All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking $35,000, plus or minus. 

 Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no problem.". 

  I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts" who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.  

  Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of here , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price."   

  Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be.... 

Note: I would not do the "condition report" because... 

#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now, I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".  

#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.  

She understood this completely and was fine with it. .  

  Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5 years of inactivity.  

At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but still out of my reach.  

  I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property. She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially. She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.  

  After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they say...  

She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK with you?? (pause..)  

She then said to me..."That's fine." 

The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell too.  

  I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)  

I tell this story for a number of reasons. 

First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make sacrifices. 

Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same. 

Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow, and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product, they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.   

 

  Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting" that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to my "limited knowledge of aviation."  

That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum. 

. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic. 

I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it.   

In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that." 

Steve B. 

Michigan



[b] 	


This post from Steve B.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I  think  Steve is right about that LSA weight issue a while back. 



I am in Canada but am close to some Transport,  FAA people that told me that. 



I think I would be more concerned on LSA pilots that they CANNOT legally fly in Canada without a Aviation medical yet.  I understand that it is being looked at but no where near getting resolved yet. so on that note LSA not only has some restrictions like altitude and wight of aircraft but also keeps you on your side of Border. 



We have similar issues with FAA now ,  If you want the info posted I will be happy too.

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Back to the orginal subject...



I Certainly agree that it seems a shame that KitFox's dont seem to bring near what a person invests in building one when it comes time to sell.

And I also completely concour with the observation that very few Experimental aircraft do. RV's seem to be an obvious exception t that rule.

I submit that , in my opinoin, it has more to do with the supply vs demand than it does with the KitFox owners failure to refuse to sell at a higher price. I am sure plenty of owners who have put up their planes for sale, have in fact done just that...refused to take what they thought it was worth...and remained an "owner", not a seller!

I have built 5 flying machines in my life and I have long ago relegated to the fact that It was a lousy investment. The only time I ever got out of a flying plane the investment price, was way back in the late 70's when I was a WeedHopper dealer. I could buy a kit...if you bought htem 5 at a time for 2 k each...the selling price was 2995 and it only took me about 40 hours to build one,(for the few customers that wanted me to.)

As a young freshly graduated aeronautical engineer I was not makeing anywhere near that much money a week...in fact, my memory is foggy that far back, but I think 250 to 300 a week was about my salary at my regular job. After the infamous 20-20 program that destroyed our fledgeling flying machine industry was aired, I moved to experimental projects and I have just kinda looked at it like a fellow does when building a HotRod, or any other custom vehicle. The market for them just is not big enough to make any money building them, especially one at a time , on a regular basis. You have to do it for the sense of accomplishment, not economy. I think if we all take a backwards look at the tremendous amount of companies, even Kit companies, that have come and gone trying to do just that...it is pretty obvious. The market just wont support but a very few. Only the best designs have survived, and if even a few mistakes are made in business operations, even they can fail so easily.

I now own the first experimental aircraft that I didnt build, and as you know by now, its a KitFox. I choose to do this not because I dont enjoy the building process, for I enjoy it immensely, and will continue to build very likely. But I choose to do this because I consider the KitFox to be probably the MOST undervalued experimental on the market.

I couldnt bring myself to invest the 35 to 40 grand needed plus the time. It seemed like I would be paying to have the privilege to build one from 15 to 20 K compared to what a flying used craft could be aquired for. IF I didnt like the workmanship, I would have alot of cushion here for a rebuild or a modification or whatever tinkering It would need. 

If I build again, which , as I said is very likely, I will probably do an RV, because I want one so bad AND Its easier to Justify the investment due to the resale AND I cant seem to buy one for less than I can build it. OR go back to ultralites for projects because the loss vs investment is not so great.

Right now I am restoreing a Luscombe 8A to satisfy my builders urge and its no bargain project either . Be real lucky to get out of it what I'll have wrapped up. What the industry needs is more pilots....bigger market..simple as that.

As previously stated on the list....Better enjoy it, cause its gonna cost you!

Good thing I do, and as I keep telling my wife.."It keeps me outta the taverns !

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  As previously stated on the list....Better enjoy it, cause its gonna cost you! 

Good thing I do, and as I keep telling my wife.."It keeps me outta the taverns !

	




I just say , "well at least you know where I am "

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

It is a shame the kitfox is under rated, in the eyes of the consumer.  I think it is the most wonderful piece of airplane.  I hear all the time on the radio from airline pilots.  Is that a Kitfox, with surprise.  Mainly because of the way I fly it.  I come back with an affirmative.  For some reason, they have gotten some bad press. What these airplanes can do is simply amazing.   



As far as building an experimental, I'm doing it so I can bypass the red tape, I want to do my own yearly inspections.  I want the freedom.  Forget that certified garbage.  When done with my current project, I'm done.  I'll keep the fox, for I think the return will be bad, but keeping it will be fun.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Mike ,  What exactly do you mean by this ? 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

For some reason, they have gotten some bad press. 	


I agree a great flying airplane and one of the best bang for the buk !![/quote]

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I don't mean bad press in the conventional means, aka tv or radio.  I mean reviews from other pilots.  If you go back a couple months and remember the post from the RV pilots.  Slammed the fox pretty bad.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Well , I can tell that I came across a study done by a Challenger owner and I added to his chart Kitfox and Avids . What the chart fails to show is the quantity of each plane flying. But the writer did a good job.



I posted it here http://www.cfisher.com/accident.html



And there is a link there to the original study with credit given to him   >  Walter Lounsbery

I would like to expand that study to see what the most frequent cause was of  Kitfox Accidents.  I would venture to guess that fuel issues and stall or stall/spin would be 2 of the top ones though  ( gut feel  only )

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I have to say it is tough to spin a fox, not impossible, but tough.  The reason, you have to go pretty slow.  I've gone up to altitude and slowed to 60mph and did a left bank 90 degrees and the fox made the turn with just a little shake, this was with little power.  I was amazed.  So if people are dropping out of the sky it's there own fault not the airplane, watch your speeds people.  One last note, the reason for the kitfox accidents, are the same for all of aviation.  People flying to slow.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		   are the same for all of aviation. People flying to slow.

	


I have to agree there but would like to add that slow is ok but you need to be proficient in slow flight and know your aircraft and what it feels like in slow flight, in stalls in all aspects - climb and turning.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

What I'm talking about with slow is running 2 mph above stall for your final, very stupid.  I know pilots that do that as a norm.  I can't tell them anything either, they keep doing it.  Leaves a very small margin of error.

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I had sed:



 	  Quote: 	
		  If you are that confident, why don't you post your tail number and

address and we'll have the FAA come over and confirm your assertion?


	


To which kitfoxmike sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Wow what a statement, you are the type of person I stay away from.

It's people like you that give the FAA the power they have and harm aviation.


	


Mike, you have absolutely no idea what kind of person I am.  I'm a 

card carrying Libertarian and spend the rest of my time working hard 

on reducing government to a size that most people would find 

disturbingly small.  I have never turned anyone in to the FAA, though 

God knows there have been a few that deserve it for trying to kill 

me.  Like the guy that overflew Buckeye airport during my BFR a few 

weeks ago 500 feet BELOW pattern altitude and perpendicular to the 

runway.  He was just passing through, it seems.



Apparently several of you missed my point.  My comment above was an 

attempt to get Steve to put up or shut up.  Have you noticed that, no 

matter the topic, he has a way of working his takeoff weight agenda 

into the discussion?  Somebody asks why Kitfoxes and Avids don't sell 

for more on the used market and somehow he turns it into a jab at 

Lowell and another plug for his interpretation of sport pilot rules.



Here's how I envision a conversation with Steve.



Me: "Hey Steve, how's it going?"



Steve: "Great, wanna see my hangar?"



Me: "Sure."



Steve: "This is my series 5, I fly it under sport pilot rules."



Me: "Pretty."



Steve: "If it weren't for all those people bashing me on the Kitfox 

list and telling me I don't deserve to have it I could explain to 

them how sport pilot rules work."



Me: "Yes, we've been through this before.  So, where do you like to 

go in your 'fox?"



Steve: "I like checking out the lakes in northern Minnesota.  I can 

do that because of the sport pilot rule."



Me: "Cool.  Where else?"



Steve: "Any place the sport pilot rule lets me go.  To bad those 

'experts' on the Kitfox list are too dense to understand them."



Me: "You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as are the others on 

the list."



Steve: "All they have to do is read about the sport pilot rules on 

the FAA's web site."



Me: "Steve, is that ALL you can talk about, sport pilot rules?"



Steve: "Nah, there's much more to life.  For example, we took some 

great pictures when we were up north last time, keeping our takoff 

weights under the limits in the sport pilot rule."



On the other hand, maybe my impression of Steve is as wrong as your 

impression of me...



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I  think  Steve is right about that LSA weight issue a while back.


	


You mean a year ago and about 20 times since then?  Yes, he's right 

that the rule only mentions "maximum takeoff weight."  The part he's 

confused about is the meaning of the word "maximum", as in, "the most 

ever" not "the takeoff weight I'm at today on this flight".  Of 

course, "maximum takeoff weight" makes no sense in the context of 

only one takeoff, that would be just your "takeoff weight".



What the heck, we're talking about it again!  



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

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