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Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL
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Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

I am about to close up my ailerons. My next step will be to install the 

electric aileron trim tab kit. I have a couple of questions for those who 

are already flying with the trim tab option.



1. The  535-mm length of the trim tab seems pretty long to me. I'm 

wondering whether that long tab gives too much trim authority. My question 

to those already flying with the trim tab is, "how much of the available 

servo travel do you use in practice? Is it only +/-1 or 2 marks on the 

10-mark trim indicator, or do you sometimes go all the way to, say, +/-4 or 

even 5 marks?"



2. Dwg. 6-ATO-1 shows the tab on the left aileron. However, I think I 

remember a recent post suggesting that the predominant trim requirement is 

to correct a "heavy" left wing. IIRC, the same post suggested that applying 

trim downward on the right aileron would be more effective than the 

equivalent upward trim on the left aileron. That makes sense to me, 

assuming that the predominant requirement is to raise the left wing. My 

second question for trim tab users is, "Do you most often trim to raise the 

left wing?"



Thanks for sharing your experience.



If anyone else has an opinion whether a trim tab into the high pressure 

flow under the wing would actually create less drag than the equivalent 

trim from a tab raised into the low pressure flow on top of the opposite 

wing, that would be of interest.



Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Terry

the trim tab rod can never be long enough.



the speed envelope of the plane almost requires two different trim setting, fine for high speed and braod for low approach.  you will find the trim tab is very effective in cruise, 130+mph , just a touch will do ya, to on landing, you will need everything it has, especially if flying solo. the plane trims out perfect with two pewople aboard.



Juan



--

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Re the trim tab:

Last thursday I flew my 601HDS with electric trim.  Got up to altitude and 

touched the elevator trim switch for cruise.  It went to full down trim with 

my finger off the switch.  Hit the switch to get up trim and it went all the 

way to full up.  The spring in the switch seems to have failed.

I believe the reason I can still tell this tale is that I made my trim tab a 

bit smaller than the drawings because I had heard it was very sensitive.  I 

was able to counter the full trim in both directions by pulling/pushing on 

the stick and had time to let the trim run to neutral and then turn off the 

trim power switch.

Think about it.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Now there's a topic that should last all week! Glad you made it back to tell

the tale, Dave!



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section

Do not Archive



--

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

N5SL requires full trim up with flaps down and still can't hold a hands-off approach.  Bigger is better.  In cruise it requires very little trim.  I went from this:

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_04_03_ComingTogether.jpg

to this:

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_8_05_Trim.jpg



during my build process and I'm glad I did.  The flaps require a larger trim tab.  



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Scott,

You'd better be really sure you can overcome a runaway trim situation (that 

I just encountered) with a trim flap that big..

Did Zenith OK that?

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

wjones(at)brazoriainet.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Hi Dave ,did it require lots of force to overpower the trim runaway .

Wade Jones    South Texas

601XL plans building

Cont. 0200

---

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

 	  daveaustin2(at)primus.ca wrote: 	
		  Scott,

You'd better be really sure you can overcome a runaway trim situation (that 

I just encountered) with a trim flap that big.. 	




Dave - I can overcome it with my BRS.  Let's hope it won't come to that.  Before the next flight I'll talk to the test pilot about doing a test to see what the consequences are with full trim in both directions.  



Thanks for the warning!



Scott.

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Dave,



I also bought the larger trim tab from Zenith after I saw it on their 

certified version of the 601, I have read comments by others that had the 

same problem as Scott.

I printed out their latest prints of assemblies with part numbers and it 

shows the larger trim tab instead of the small one.



Clyde Barcus

601 XL

Hendersonville, TN



---

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Scott and all,

i practiced run away trim problem, and the procedure I came up with is :



Trim problem at cruise-

1- pull back throttle to manauvering speed 

2- stick in direction needed to maintain controlled flight.  

3- land 



Trim problem below cruise speed, same as above.  

If practiced, the plane is easy to fly out of trim.  Just gets old quick.



Juan

--

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

 	  Quote: 	
		     Terry,

   I use very little if any aileron trim, both sides around neutral, during    flight - maybe I lucked out in rigging, or maybe because I corrected the below    condition I reported on the list on November 11, 2004. I do not know if    current drawings have corrected this condition. 

    Most of my elevator trim is slightly nose up (1 - 2 "marks") during    normal cruise flight.with just me aboard.

   Tony Graziano

   601XL/Jab3300; N493TG with 340 enjoyable flight hrs 

   ---------------

                       Match:        #129            Message:        #30649                    From:        <tgrazian(at)bellsouth.net>                    Subject:        Elevator Fairlead at B5, Heavy Left Wing, Engine          supportfirewall atttach 

                    Date:                 Nov 11, 2004

          



   2.  My spouse asked why the sticks had a left leaning    tendency.  The lower elevator

cable is on the centerline of    6B16-2.  The upper is displaced to the right

of the centerline on    6B5-2 - this creates a built in bias to lean the stick

to the left (left    wing down)- unless corrected."



   -------------------------------------------------------

   Time: 05:17:26 PM PST US

From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net (ttp44(at)rkymtn.net)>

Subject:    Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

I am about to close    up my ailerons. My next step will be to install the 

electric aileron trim    tab kit. I have a couple of questions for those who 

are already flying    with the trim tab option.



1. The  535-mm length of the trim tab    seems pretty long to me. I'm 

wondering whether that long tab gives too    much trim authority. My question 

to those already flying with the trim tab    is, "how much of the available 

servo travel do you use in practice? Is it    only +/-1 or 2 marks on the 

10-mark trim indicator, or do you sometimes go    all the way to, say, +/-4 or 

even 5  marks?"



	
   [quote][b]

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Thanks, Scott and Juan.



It turns out my elevator is already done, with the full-width ZAC trim tab.



What I am interested in now is the electric aileron trim. The control rod 

length must be whatever it takes to allow the tab to move +/-25°, according 

to 6-ATO-1. The aileron trim is designed to level the wings, hands off, not 

to trim the pitch.



If I understand Juan correctly, he needs a lot more aileron trim at 

approach speed, and the problem is primarily low left wing when flying 

solo. That suggests to me that, the earlier post I recall, that suggests it 

would be more effective to put the aileron trim tab on the right wing is 

probably correct. At a high angle of attack on approach, it seems 

reasonable that the aileron would respond much better to the high pressure 

flow under the right wing than to the low pressure flow above the left wing.



Has anyone else flown an XL with the electric aileron trim option? If so, 

what percent of the aileron trim travel has been used? Are you mostly 

raising the left wing?



Thanks for sharing your experience.



Terry

At 07:16 AM 1/14/2008 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  N5SL requires full trim up with flaps down and still can't hold a 

hands-off approach.  Bigger is better.  In cruise it requires very little 

trim.  I went from this:

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_04_03_ComingTogether.jpg

to this:

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_8_05_Trim.jpg



during my build process and I'm glad I did.  The flaps require a larger 

trim tab.



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Terry,

the forces on low appraoch are both on elevator as well as Aileron.   With someone else in the plane, the forces are negliable.  the plane trims better with two aboard.   I calm days or at altitude, the plane trims out with both tabs set for one pilot.  I set the aileron for one guy at runup.



Juan



--

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Wade,

I'd say about 30 lbs..  Enough to get my attention real quick.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Juan



When you set the aileron for one pilot, I presume you set it by the number 

of marks on the R.A. Allen indicator. How many marks are required in your 

A/C with yourself as pilot?



Terry

At 01:54 PM 1/14/2008 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Terry,

the forces on low appraoch are both on elevator as well as Aileron.   With 

someone else in the plane, the forces are negliable.  the plane trims 

better with two aboard.   I calm days or at altitude, the plane trims out 

with both tabs set for one pilot.  I set the aileron for one guy at runup.



Juan


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail is finished; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Gentlemen;

   

  There have been many incidents in flight history when similar things happened. Be very careful in the selection of the switch and the circuit to control it. If possible the indicator system should warn if an uncommanded changing situation develops.

   

  I will always favor manual trim. The Piper J-2 system comes to mind as an almost impossible to mess up system! 

   

  http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Trim_System_Failures.pdf

   

  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144240&sid=fcc602ecdbefbe81917d090c1dab5f58

  

[url=http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/07577b0b9213888985256930005117ca/20475630fb33e40a86256a38006253d8!OpenDocument]http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/07577b0b9213888985256930005117ca/20475630fb33e40a86256a38006253d8!OpenDocument[/url]

   

  http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/ntsb-recommends-faa-address-citationjet-trim/?no_cache=1&cHash=ee998bd5c6

   

  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_23_21/ai_n19208281

   

  

Dave Austin <daveaustin2(at)primus.ca> wrote:

  [quote][b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

[quote][b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

when I was still building, I was planning to make the trim on both sides of the elevator, with very limited travel initially. I was planning to use the AeroConversions manual trim control. http://www.sonexaircraft.com/orders/trimfaq.html.



  There is no reason why tight linkages and low inital throw limits will not work. The only down side I could figure was a slight increase in empty weight at a long mopment arm...

  

Clyde Barcus <barcusc(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" 



Dave,



I also bought the larger trim tab from Zenith after I saw it on their 

certified version of the 601, I have read comments by others that had the 

same problem as Scott.

I printed out their       Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

actual I don't. the trim setting is so dynamic, it is relative to speed/ rpm/wieght, that as long as the trim is set at zero, when installed, you will constantly be changing it relative to weight, rpm, speed etc.  just set to zero pitch when installed. then fly the plane at various rpm settings during the fly off.  I know for example that when I have full fuel in right wing, and no passengers, the trim is set at .05 inched above neutral.  When I have m y dad in the plane and equal fuel, it set the plane for zero aileron trim and zero elevtr trim at take off.  once level I trim for levl flight.  it is so dynamic, and the plane is so light, just setting and forgetting is not in the 601's cards.  once trimmed though, it is hands off for the duration of flight so long as the weights are neutral, or I keep the gas level even.



Sweet flying plane!!



Juan



--

planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: Aileron Trim Tab Length for 601XL

Hey Listers,



Eleven yeras ago when I was flying off the 40 hours on my 601HD I purposly 

flew the airplane with the elevator tab at the extreme positions in cruise 

to be sure I could over ride it in case of a runaway actuator for the very 

reason that Dave experienced. I did it by moving the trim a little at a time 

until I had it at full travel in each direction.



I can see where it would scare the sh-- out of you if you weren't ready for 

it. That sucker is very effective at cruise, but just nice in the pattern.



Fly careful!



do not archive



Jim Hoak 601 HD 571 hours.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Re the trim tab:

 Last thursday I flew my 601HDS with electric trim.  Got up to altitude and 

 touched the elevator trim switch for cruise.  It went to full down trim 

 with my finger off the switch.  Hit the switch to get up trim and it went 

 all the way to full up.  The spring in the switch seems to have failed.

 I believe the reason I can still tell this tale is that I made my trim tab 

 a bit smaller than the drawings because I had heard it was very sensitive. 

 I was able to counter the full trim in both directions by pulling/pushing 

 on the stick and had time to let the trim run to neutral and then turn off 

 the trim power switch.

 Think about it.

 Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

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