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jlfernan

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
Location: MIAMI

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Build time?

Just started lurking here.  I'm going to be going to the factory for a tour and possible order a Super Sport.  One question I have is what is the approx. build time on Kit Foxes?

_________________
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Fuselage/Forward Controls
http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Build time?

That's hard to say, 205AK took almost 10 years but in that time I also

completed 3 degree's, 1 wife, and 1 son (auto pilot).  I think the 2 biggest

factors will be how often you work on it and your mechanical back groung.  I

have seen a fox built in as little as 6 months 





--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Build time?

 	  Quote: 	
		  what is the approx. build time on Kit Foxes? 	




I was a first time builder.  It took me 1200 hours to build a Classic 4.  That is about twice what the Old Skystar told me it would take.



Some tips to keep the build as short as possible.  Build it by the book.  Do not add options that didn't come with the kit.  Do not make improvements to the design.



Do something on building the plane every day and one day there will be nothing left to do.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

rdmac(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: Build time?

I took the better part of 3 1/2 years (I have no idea how many hours)

working just part time and mostly on weekends. The time would have been cut

to no more than 3 years if I did not have to wait at least 6 months for an

engine.



Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK

Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls 

Flying sense Jan. 06



--

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: Build time?

At 06:24 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  One question I have is what is the approx. build time on Kit Foxes?


	


Huh. That's easy. It's twice as long as whatever you think it is.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

jlfernan

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
Location: MIAMI

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:34 am Post subject:

 	  Guy Buchanan wrote: 	
		  

Huh. That's easy. It's twice as long as whatever you think it is. 	




That's exactly what happened to me, which is why I'm here.  I originally wanted a Kitfox but just when I was ready to order, the company went out of business.  I ended up by a Vans RV-9A kit, have spent two years working and am about a third of the way thru.  I'm selling it and am coming back to Kitfox.  Vans quotes 1200-1500 on thier QB kits which  is why I was asking.  By the way, any builders or flyers in S.Fla?

_________________
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Fuselage/Forward Controls
http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Build time?

 	  Quote: 	
		  That's exactly what happened to me, which is why I'm here. I originally wanted a Kitfox but just when I was ready to order, the company went out of business. I ended up by a Vans RV-9A kit, have spent two years working and am about a third of the way thru. 	




Any idea how many hours you've been working on it?

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Build time?

Retired builder here...19 months...6-8 hrs daily, but not every day.  

Wings were "quick-build" kit.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/460+ hrs



On Jan 14, 2008, at 9:24 PM, jlfernan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Just started lurking here.  I'm going to be going to the factory  

 for a tour and possible order a Super Sport.  One question I have  

 is what is the approx. build time on Kit Foxes?



 --------

 Jorge Fernandez

 N214JL Reserved





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=158181#158181

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

jlfernan

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
Location: MIAMI

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Build time?

Added it up this morning. 545.2 hrs so far, no end in sight.

_________________
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Fuselage/Forward Controls
http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Build time?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Added it up this morning. 545.2 hrs so far, no end in sight. 	




If you're 1/3 of the way through with 545 hours then you're not really that far off the high end of the factory estimate of 1500 hours. Am I misunderstanding something?

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

57_kid

Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 50

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Build time?

that last 5% is a kicker

Steve



--

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Build time?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  It took me 18 months including many evenings and weekends to get it  done. 

  

 Dee Young

 Model II

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

n981ms(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: Build time?

GA

  [quote][b]

CDE2fly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Build time?

Jorge:

  

 I'm nearing the completion of a Model 7 and estimate I have 100 hours  left.  I purchased the kit from a meticulous builder that had 1200 hours of  construction documented when I purchased it.  The kit included  quick build wings from the factory.  The original builder was a retired  engineer and I'm sure his primary objective was not finishing as quickly as  possible.  When I purchased the kit, most of the subassembly work was  complete and control linkages were installed.  I've logged approximately  1000 hours over the last couple of years completing covering and painting,  fully upholstered interior, firewall forward (factory supported 912S  installation) and a fairly extensive glass instrument panel.

  

 A good portion of work I've done could have been completed in less  time with a very functional finished product.  My covering has  a 4 color aerothane finish with LOTS of masking.  Numerous parts have  been painted numerous times because I wasn't happy with the first (or  second) finish (a run, a bug, some dust, etc.).  The instrument  panel/electronics is far more extensive than necessary for basic day VFR  flight.  All of these items take more time then necessary but the beauty of  building your own is that you get to balance the time/money decisions to  suit your objectives for the airplane and your intended  mission(s).

  

 The other factor is obviously your level of experience in building  airplanes.  This is my first though I've spent many years building and  flying model airplanes competitively so many of tools and techniques  were easily applied to the Kitfox.  However, many steps (i.e., rib  stitching, panel wiring, and FWF) were a "learn first, do second" process which  certainly adds to the hours.

  

 All in all, my estimates are as follows:

  

 Basic well built airplane; quick build kit, little deviation from plans,  experienced builder (completed at least one airplane prior)  - 1000  hours

  

  Basic well built airplane; quick build kit, little deviation from plans,  first time builder - 1500 hours



  

 Extensive paint and panel work can easily add a several hundred  hours.

  

 The good news is that I've thoroughly enjoyed building the Kitfox and we're  very fortunate to have the level of factory support that Kitfox Aircraft  provides.  I've called the factory and chatted countless times and John and  Deb and they have ALWAYS been able to provide the part or advice I needed.

  

 In the end, I will have acquired new skills, enjoyed many satisfying  hours building, met some great people, and have an airplane that is  configured exactly the way I want it to be.  To me that's what homebuilding  is all about.

  

 Good luck with your decision. 

  

  

  



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

jlfernan

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
Location: MIAMI

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Build time?

What I'm trying to determine is difficulty. While Vans builds a decent kit, you spend a lot of time scratching your head trying to figure things out.  The plans are a little weak. Most of it something to the effect of "assemble aileron".  While I realize building something like an airplane is never simple, I got tired of have to fit almost every part instead of just putting things together.  Solid rivets are great when the go in right.  When they don't, it can be very frustrating to fix them. I don't really know how to explain my frustration. When building an aluminum plane, you spend lots of hours in prep.  Then parts are put on, drilled, remove, deburred, dimpled, riveted, put back on, removed again for something else and on and on.  You can spend hours and feel like very little progress was made. Kitfox's website says their planes can be built with common tools.  I hope that means that while it may be time consuming, it's not difficult.  I can be paranoid, especially when it comes to something my life will depend on.  Vans says their kits are "over engineered", but when they give you a measurement of say 17 & 11/64", I tend to try to be that precise.  When I'm not, I worry and end up doing it over.  When you compare builders lists like Kitfox to Vans, you see most of the posting on Vans list is people having problems figuring things out or fixing mistakes they made.  Again I'm having trouble explaining my concerns.  I'm selling my RV-9A and thinking of buying a Series 7, but I don't want to end up where I'm at now. I just need to know how difficult is a Kitfox kit? My girlfriend is tired of hearing me curse in the garage because I'm frustrated over something I'm trying to do.

_________________
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Fuselage/Forward Controls
http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Build time?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Kitfox's website says their planes can be built with common tools. I hope that means that while it may be time consuming, it's not difficult. 	




Jorge, My neighbor across the street is building an RV-9.  I made a joke to him that " Compared to his airplane mine is a tinkertoy".  An exaggeration for sure but gives you some perspective.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: Build time?

At 06:06 AM 1/16/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm selling my RV-9A and thinking of buying a Series 7, but I don't 

want to end up where I'm at now. I just need to know how difficult 

is a Kitfox kit? My girlfriend is tired of hearing me curse in the 

garage because I'm frustrated over something I'm trying to do.


	


         I have a strong suspicion you'll end up where you're at now. 

However not having built one of the new planes with their improved 

plans I can't speak directly to them. Unfortunately this list doesn't 

have very many new builders either. I suggest you make contact with 

John McBean at Kitfox LLC, (www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com) and try to get 

a list of recent builder references from him. They will be able to 

best tell you about constructing a 7 or newer.

         My IV was a kit in the sense that it had some of the raw 

materials provided with general outline of assembly. ("The engine 

goes on the front.") You got to design the fuel, electrical, 

avionics, hydraulic systems and interior appointments yourself. You 

also got to design nearly everything forward of the firewall. 

(Excluding the engine mount.) Almost every part was custom fit with 

some guidelines on what tolerances to hold. How long it took, and how 

difficult it was was highly dependent on what you decided to build. 

My aircraft was built very simply, and was therefore easier than it 

could have been. Many of the new 7's I've seen have full IFR glass 

cockpits and full interiors. Some are now even installing autopilots! 

The better ones vary widely from the plans, with improved custom 

cowls, cooling systems, and interiors.

         It sounds to me like you may be building to fly, and are not 

really that interested in the building process. There are a couple of 

possible alternatives to building. One is to employ someone to "help" 

you build it. There are several professionals around the country who 

do this. The better alternative is to simply buy a flying plane. 

Though Van's aircraft are expensive to buy, Kitfoxes are not. You 

might seriously consider buying one outright now, because prices are 

seriously low.



Good luck!

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

fredshiple(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: Build time?

Jorge,

  I'm currantly building an RV7 and finished a S6/912S 4years ago. The engine/prop is installed on the RV7 with the cowling. I'm presently installing the Garmin panel with a builder assist program in PA, so I'm fairly well along in the building process Started the empannage with the assist program one year ago (Nov). Completed the airframe/wings in October in Toledo (nice to be retired!) and moved the plane to Rostraver Pa to complete it.

  The Series 6 instructions are very complete compared to Van's. Each 1-3 page section has drawings and text that end up with an installed subassembly. It was quite straight-forward 

  for this inexperienced builder to perform. Van's instructions presume far more experience than I had when I started the 'Fox. It would have been difficult for me to complete the RV7 quick-build fuselage and wings 6 years ago. It was doable after being introduced to building thru the Kitfox approach.

  You  need to plan your own fire-wall forward, but if you get the Kitfox kit for the engines they support, the instructions are very complete. There was also enough guidance  for the other systems in the instruction manual that an RV builder should have no trouble. A local EAA member taught me fabric covering and it's pretty easy to master.

  Kitfox by way of John McBean has supurb builder support. There are enough local RV builders that I did not need to use Van's support.

  Booth the RV and the Kitfox are excellent and fun planes to build and fly. They just take a somewhat different approach to the building instruction process with the RV making more assumptions regarding builder experience. 

   

  Fred Shiple

  Toledo OH

  S6/912S/amphibs

  



jlfernan <jlfernan(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jlfernan" 



What I'm trying to determine is difficulty. While Vans builds a decent kit, you spend a lot of time scratching your head trying to figure things out. The plans are a little weak. Most of it something to the effect of 

"assemble aileron". While I realize building something like an airplane is never simple, I got tired of have to fit almost every part instead of just putting things together. Solid rivets are great when the go in right. When they don't, it can be very frustrating to fix them. I don't really know how to explain my frustration. When building an aluminum plane, you spend lots of hours in prep. Then parts are put on, drilled, remove, deburred, dimpled, riveted, put back on, removed again for something else and on and on. You can spend hours and feel like very little progress was made. Kitfoxe's website says their planes can be built with common  tools. I hope that means that while it may be time consuming, it's not difficult. I can be paranoid, especially when it comes to something my life will depend on. Vans says their kits are "over engineered", but when they give you a measurement of say 17 & 11/64", I tend to try to be that precise. When I'm not, I worry and end up !

doing it over. When you compare builders lists like Kitfox to Vans, you see most of the posting on Vans list is people having problems figuring things out or fixing mistakes they made. Again I'm having trouble explaining my concerns. I'm selling my RV-9A and thinking of buying a Series 7, but I don't want to end up where I'm at now. I just need to know how difficult is a Kitfox kit? My girlfriend is tired of hearing me curse in the garage because I'm frustrated over something I'm trying to do.



--------

Jorge Fernandez

N214JL Reserved





Read this topic online [quote][b]

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Build time?

I second that.  It took me over 2300 hours to build my Model IV-1200.  I built an excel spread sheet and each time that work was peformed I entered time and work accomplished. This included any one that helped me.  That included time when having  a beer or glass of wine reading the manual or trying to.  My aircraft is very close to full IFR and didn't get much help.  The manual was just that a manual.  Pictures were used were mostly not very good, although the hand drawings were fine.  My plane weighed in at 634 lbs and I had hoped for less then 635, how lucky can you get.  It now weighs 675 lbs, wouldn't take anything off that was put on.  1300 hours on airframe, 900 plus hours on 912ULS.

 Clint

 Half Moon Bay, Calif

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:20:36 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 From: bnn(at)nethere.com

 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Build time?

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

 At 06:06 AM 1/16/2008, you wrote:

 >I'm selling my RV-9A and thinking of buying a Series 7, but I don't 

 >want to end up where I'm at now. I just need to know how difficult 

 >is a Kitfox kit? My girlfriend is tired of hearing me curse in the 

 >garage because I'm frustrated over something I'm trying to do.

 I have a strong suspicion you'll end up where you're at now. 

 However not having built one of the new planes with their improved 

 plans I can't speak directly to them. Unfortunately this list doesn't 

 have very many new builders either. I suggest you make contact with 

 John McBean at Kitfox LLC, (www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com) and try to get 

 a list of recent builder references from him. They will be able to 

 best tell you about constructing a 7 or newer.

 My IV was a kit in the sense that it had some of the raw 

 materials provided with general outline of assembly. ("The engine 

 goes on the front.") You got to design the fuel, electrical, 

 avionics, hydraulic systems and interior appointments yourself. You 

 also got to design nearly everything forward of the firewall. 

 (Excluding the engine mount.) Almost every part was custom fit with 

 some guidelines on what tolerances to hold. How long it took, and how 

 difficult it was was highly dependent on what you decided to build. 

 My aircraft was built very simply, and was therefore easier than it 

 could have been. Many of the new 7's I've seen have full IFR glass 

 cockpits and full interiors. Some are now even installing autopilots! 

 The better ones vary widely from the plans, with improved custom 

 cowls, cooling systems, and interiors.

 It sounds to me like you may be building to fly, and are not 

 really that interested in the building process. There are a couple of 

 possible alternatives to building. One is to employ someone to "help" 

 you build it. There are several professionals around the country who 

 do this. The better alternative is to simply buy a flying plane. 

 Though Van's aircraft are expensive to buy, Kitfoxes are not. You 

 might seriously consider buying one outright now, because prices are 

 seriously low.

 Good luck!

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 1=============

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: Build time?

"......employ someone to "help"

you build it. There are several professionals around the country who

do this. "

  

 Anyone contemplating the use of "professional" help should study the following FAA Advisory Circular.

  

 .AC 20-139 

 Commercial Assistance During Construction of Amateur-Built Aircraft

  

 .http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/3209fec2139ccb3f862569af006ab9e9/$FILE/AC20-139.pdf



 Steve Benesh

 84KF

 A&P, IA

  [quote][b]

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