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wgill10(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Hello All,
I have a Bendix-King KLN 94 GPS (IFR certified unit) in an RV-7. During discussions with an FAA inspector, I was told that I was not allowed to use this unit for IFR use until I completed a 337 form with a field approval, and completed the required test flight. I was not aware that the experimental ships had to jump through the same hoops as the Type Certificated aircraft. Can this possibly be true? I welcome all input on this subject.
Bill
RV-7
Lee’s Summit, MO
[quote][b]
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Get a copy of AC-20-138A dated 12/22/03. It is the latest guidance on
panel mount GPS. However, it is written for TC aircraft. How that
translates to amateur built is not clear to me. Key tests the FAA is
interested in include frequency interference with installed navcoms, and
a flight test in VFR demonstrating its accuracy by visual observation on
some approaches and over known points in the database.
William Gill wrote:
| Quote: |
Hello All,
I have a Bendix-King KLN 94 GPS (IFR certified unit) in an RV-7.
During discussions with an FAA inspector, I was told that I was not
allowed to use this unit for IFR use until I completed a 337 form with
a field approval, and completed the required test flight. I was not
aware that the experimental ships had to jump through the same hoops
as the Type Certificated aircraft. Can this possibly be true? I
welcome all input on this subject.
Bill
RV-7
Lee’s Summit, MO
*
*
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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William Gill wrote:
| Quote: | Hello All,
I have a Bendix-King KLN 94 GPS (IFR certified unit) in an RV-7. During
discussions with an FAA inspector, I was told that I was not allowed to
use this unit for IFR use until I completed a 337 form with a field
approval, and completed the required test flight. I was not aware that
the experimental ships had to jump through the same hoops as the Type
Certificated aircraft. Can this possibly be true? I welcome all input on
this subject.
|
337's are not applicable to aircraft with an experimental airworthiness
certificate. The 337 form is authorized under FAR 43.
However, FAR 43.1 (3b) states:
"This part (FAR 43) does not apply to any aircraft for which an
experimental airworthiness certificate has been issued, unless a
different kind of airworthiness certificate had previously been issued
for that aircraft."
The FAA official is sadly misinformed.
Sam Buchanan
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Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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To install a KLN 94 in an experimental aircraft and NOT perform the tests
required in AC-20-138A would be, in my opinion, reckless and foolish. I'm
not saying you need a 337, just do the tests and verify that the thing works
as advertised before you fly IMC.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
--
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bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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If I am not mistaken, the posters major concern was the 337. Not required. Even in a certified install, a newly installed IFR GPS must be test flown to insure it's accuracy in the various modes, approaches, inroute, etc. We in experimentals, need to make log book entries prior to IFR, just as we must for acro, which to me indicates we do the same flight tests ONLY, no biggie.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Flying
O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4
http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_065.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Start sharing!
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rickrv8(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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I had a similar question with my -8. I was getting a similar response from
the Washington DC FSDO. They didn't require a 337 but did want me to have
an IA fly the flight test regime. That wasn't about to happen.
Consequently, the rep from the FSDO and myself got in touch with the FAA
HQs. I was told all I needed to do was perform the ground and flight tests
and fill out the appropriate documentation and make the log book entry. I
got a copy of the test program from John Stark. It was not a big deal. The
tests are really only to ensure no interference and that the GPS operates to
a level of accuracy. If anyone is interested I can provide a copy of my two
tests.
Rick McBride
RV-8 N523RJ
Centreville, VA
| Quote: | From: Dana Overall <bo124rs(at)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:06:34 -0500
If I am not mistaken, the posters major concern was the 337. Not required.
Even in a certified install, a newly installed IFR GPS must be test
flown to insure it's accuracy in the various modes, approaches, inroute,
etc. We in experimentals, need to make log book entries prior to IFR,
just as we must for acro, which to me indicates we do the same flight
tests ONLY, no biggie.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Flying
O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4
http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_065.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
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wgill10(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Hello Rick,
Please post the tests and/or test program provided by John Stark (or send off-line). I have read the ground and flight test portions of AC 20-138A and can perform those tests and make an entry into the aircraft logbook. Thank you everyone for the excellent guidance here.
Bill
RV-7 N151WP
Lee's Summit, MO
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Richard McBride" <rickrv8(at)msn.com>
[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard McBride"
I had a similar question with my -8. I was getting a similar response from
the Washington DC FSDO. They didn't require a 337 but did want me to have
an IA fly the flight test regime. That wasn't about to happen.
Consequently, the rep from the FSDO and myself got in touch with the FAA
HQs. I was told all I needed to do was perform the ground and flight tests
and fill out the appropriate documentation and make the log book entry. I
got a copy of the test program from John Stark. It was not a big deal. The
tests are really only to ensure no interference and that the GPS operates to
a level of accuracy. If anyone is interested I can provide a copy of my two
tests.
Rick McBride
RV-8 N523RJ
Centreville, VA
>From: Dana Overall
>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:06:34 -0500
>
>
>If I am not mistaken, the posters major concern was the 337. Not required.
> Even in a certified install, a newly installed IFR GPS must be test
>flown to insure it's accuracy in the various modes, approaches, inroute,
>etc. We in experimentals, need to make log book entries prior to IFR,
>just as we must for acro, which to me indicates we do the same flight
>tests ONLY, no biggie.
>
>Dana Overall
>
>Richmond, KY i39
>
>RV-7 slider, Imron /www.m [quote][b]
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mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Rick is absolutely correct on this issue. Fly a test flight to insure everything is working properly, make a logbook entry to validate the tests and have a good day. There is NO such thing as a 337 for experimental amateur built aircraft.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference
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rickrv8(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Bill,
I'll send you four documents directly. If anyone else would like a copy
please just let me know.
Rick McBride
| Quote: | From: wgill10(at)comcast.net
Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:43:56 +0000
Hello Rick,
Please post the tests and/or test program provided by John Stark (or send
off-line). I have read the ground and flight test portions of AC 20-138A
and can perform those tests and make an entry into the aircraft logbook.
Thank you everyone for the excellent guidance here.
Bill
RV-7 N151WP
Lee's Summit, MO
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Richard McBride" <rickrv8(at)msn.com>
>
>
> I had a similar question with my -8. I was getting a similar response
from
> the Washington DC FSDO. They didn't require a 337 but did want me to
have
> an IA fly the flight test regime. That wasn't about to happen.
> Consequently, the rep from the FSDO and myself got in touch with the FAA
> HQs. I was told all I needed to do was perform the ground and flight
tests
> and fill out the appropriate documentation and make the log book entry.
I
> got a copy of the test program from John Stark. It was not a big deal.
The
> tests are really only to ensure no interference and that the GPS
operates to
> a level of accuracy. If anyone is interested I can provide a copy of my
two
> tests.
>
> Rick McBride
> RV-8 N523RJ
> Centreville, VA
>
>
> >From: Dana Overall
> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
> >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:06:34 -0500
> >
> >
> >If I am not mistaken, the posters major concern was the 337. Not
required.
> > Even in a certified install, a newly installed IFR GPS must be test
> >flown to insure it's accuracy in the various modes, approaches,
inroute,
> >etc. We in experimentals, need to make log book entries prior to IFR,
> >just as we must for acro, which to me indicates we do the same flight
> >tests ONLY, no biggie.
> >
> >Dana Overall
> >
> >Richmond, KY i39
> >
> >RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
> >Flying
> >O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4
> >
> >http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg
> >http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_065.jpg
> >http://rvflying.tripod.com
> >
> >do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
>
>http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
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Bret Smith
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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I know this is a little drift to the thread...but since Mike has entered the fray I would like his input on another recent declaration. A fellow pilot just told me this past week that he had read in a popular aero-related magazine that aircraft with "composite props" could not be certified for IFR flights. He could not remember which magazine. Can anyone confirm this?
Bret Smith
RV-9A "Finishing"
Blue Ridge, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
[quote] ---
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_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp) |
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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Well, someone read it so it must be true....or not. How does stupid stuff like that get started and how does it seem to take on a life of its own? It's a scary world we live in!
Chuck Jensen [quote] From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bret Smith
I know this is a little drift to the thread...but since Mike has entered the fray I would like his input on another recent declaration. A fellow pilot just told me this past week that he had read in a popular aero-related magazine that aircraft with "composite props" could not be certified for IFR flights. He could not remember which magazine. Can anyone confirm this?
Bret Smith
RV-9A "Finishing"
Blue Ridge, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
[b]
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rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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I would like them too please.
Ralph Finch
Davis, California
--
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mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Bret,
That is absolutely false. I fly behind a composite prop myself and the RV-9A that I fly is fully IFR ready.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:21:08 -0500
From: cjensen(at)dts9000.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}
| Quote: | Well, someone read it so it must be true....or not. How does stupid stuff like that get started and how does it seem to take on a life of its own? It's a scary world we live in!
Chuck Jensen
| Quote: | From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bret Smith
I know this is a little drift to the thread...but since Mike has entered the fray I would like his input on another recent declaration. A fellow pilot just told me this past week that he had read in a popular aero-related magazine that aircraft with "composite props" could not be certified for IFR flights. He could not remember which magazine. Can anyone confirm this?
Bret Smith
RV-9A "Finishing"
Blue Ridge, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. Start now! [quote][b]
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rickrv8(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Ralph,
I've attached four documents. One just outlines the requirements. The
other three are the addendum to the POH and the ground and flight results.
Rick
[quote]From: "Ralph Finch" <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us>
Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:11:54 -0800
I would like them too please.
Ralph Finch
Davis, California
--
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hooverra(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Rick,
I will be going through the same thing when I get a little farther
down the road. Posting the tests from John would probably benefit a
number of folks.
Thank you.
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
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Carl
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: Aiken, SC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Mike,
I’m curious, what composite prop are you using. I’m looking for an alternative to a metal prop that may run smoother. Thx CJ
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:31 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Bret,
That is absolutely false. I fly behind a composite prop myself and the RV-9A that I fly is fully IFR ready.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:21:08 -0500
From: cjensen(at)dts9000.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Well, someone read it so it must be true....or not. How does stupid stuff like that get started and how does it seem to take on a life of its own? It's a scary world we live in!
Chuck Jensen
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bret Smith
I know this is a little drift to the thread...but since Mike has entered the fray I would like his input on another recent declaration. A fellow pilot just told me this past week that he had read in a popular aero-related magazine that aircraft with "composite props" could not be certified for IFR flights. He could not remember which magazine. Can anyone confirm this?
Bret Smith
RV-9A "Finishing"
Blue Ridge, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
| Quote: | | t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listp://forums.matronics.comblank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. Start now! 0123456789 | Quote: | | t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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[quote][b]
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Carl Bell
Building N947CB
RV 7A |
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hooverra(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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I replied too soon, You posted and I now have them also. Thanks:)
"Ralph,
I've attached four documents. One just outlines the requirements. The
other three are the addendum to the POH and the ground and flight results.
Rick
From: "Ralph Finch" <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us>
Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com "
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
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mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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We have been flying with a Whirlwind 151. We got ours very early on in the development. We may have even been one of the first ten to get the 151 blades. It has been extremely smooth, vibration wise, and works well.
Mike Robertson From: carlbell(at)gforcecable.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:07:32 -0500
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| Quote: |
Mike,
I’m curious, what composite prop are you using. I’m looking for an alternative to a metal prop that may run smoother. Thx CJ
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:31 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR GPS requirements
Bret,
That is absolutely false. I fly behind a composite prop myself and the RV-9A that I fly is fully IFR ready.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
Subject: RE: RV-List: IFR GPS requirements
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:21:08 -0500
From: cjensen(at)dts9000.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Well, someone read it so it must be true....or not. How does stupid stuff like that get started and how does it seem to take on a life of its own? It's a scary world we live in!
Chuck Jensen
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bret Smith
I know this is a little drift to the thread...but since Mike has entered the fray I would like his input on another recent declaration. A fellow pilot just told me this past week that he had read in a popular aero-related magazine that aircraft with "composite props" could not be certified for IFR flights. He could not remember which magazine. Can anyone confirm this?
Bret Smith
RV-9A "Finishing"
Blue Ridge, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
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dan(at)familybrown.org
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: IFR GPS requirements |
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Quoting Bret Smith <smithhb(at)tds.net>:
| Quote: | read in a popular aero-related magazine that aircraft with
"composite props" could not be certified for IFR flights. He could
not remember
|
FWIW, I recently flew a Diamond DA-40 with an MT (composite) prop that
was IFR certified.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan(at)familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
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