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IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C
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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

This wouldn't be the  Richmond FSDO, of dual brakes fiasco fame? Most 

feds will not get too huffy if you ask them to politely educate you as 

to which FAR or other publication states whatever their position is. 

Something along the lines of "I'm from Missouri, I'd sleep better if you 

could please show me where that requirement is for experimental aircraft".

KM

also an IA

Sam Marlow wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Yes, but they won't do it period. I've tried to deal with the FAA on 

 several similar matters, I'm an IA, but it's just a loosing battle. 

 They have their little kingdom, cushy chairs, and GS pay schedules, 

 and they do make up their own rules, as they go.

 I've given up............let someone else fight that battle, that's 

 what we pay dues to EAA for, right.

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

I suppose so, but I didn't have much choice, considering my location.

 

 rampil wrote: [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)



Sam,



The simple problem is that you picked the wrong avionics shop.

Thats all.  Or, as I said before, the guys were spooked by Mr FSDO

standing there as you said.



My airframe log note from my local shop simply says, that as per the

relevant regs, my system meets the accuracy required for flight in

the NAS.



The point of calling the EAA is simply so they can cite for you all the

needed CFRs and other publications to make it clear to the shop that

homebuilts follow a different protocol. I assure you that my local

shop is a major national shop which does 135 and warbird work as well 

as part 91 and homebuilts.  They know the score and what they are doing

is fully complying with all the regs.



--------

Ira N224XS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160490#160490



















  	
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sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

Yea, well you know the battle I've been fighting for years, it just takes to much out of me to fight all the time. I just want enjoy aviation, and have fun.

 

 Kelly McMullen wrote: [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)   

   

 This wouldn't be the  Richmond FSDO, of dual brakes fiasco fame? Most feds will not get too huffy if you ask them to politely educate you as to which FAR or other publication states whatever their position is. Something along the lines of "I'm from Missouri, I'd sleep better if you could please show me where that requirement is for experimental aircraft".   

 KM   

 also an IA   

 Sam Marlow wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Marlow <sam(at)fr8dog.net> (sam(at)fr8dog.net)     

     

 Yes, but they won't do it period. I've tried to deal with the FAA on several similar matters, I'm an IA, but it's just a loosing battle. They have their little kingdom, cushy chairs, and GS pay schedules, and they do make up their own rules, as they go.     

 I've given up............let someone else fight that battle, that's what we pay dues to EAA for, right.     

   	
   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

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sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

And that's exactly whats happened. Sadly enough.

 

 Dj Merrill wrote: [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> (deej(at)deej.net)   

   

 Sam Marlow wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		  Are you kidding, walk into a FSDO and challenge them. 	
   

   

    That is not at all what I said...    I simply suggested making a phone call to the EAA and let them handle it, which leaves you out of the direct confrontation.   

   

    If we as individuals do not stand up for ourselves, or at the very least notify the organizations that represent us, then we give the power to "every new FAA guy that thinks he's God's gift to aviation" to act in whatever way they wish. 

 -Dj   

   

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Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

This may sound like a dumb thought...but why don't you just take it to  another shop?

  

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A N16BL

 Blue Ridge, Ga

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam  Marlow

Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 4:07 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: IFR  GPS requirements/TSO-88C

 

Are you kidding, walk into a FSDO and  challenge them. I'd never get another 337 approved. Not me, I'm done dealing on  that level. If one of you guy's want to, that's well and good, I'll even drive  you.

I just want to enjoy flying, and not argue and bicker with every new FAA  guy that thinks he's God's gift to aviation. 



Dj Merrill wrote:  [quote]-->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> (deej(at)deej.net) 



Sam Marlow    wrote: 

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam      Marlow <sam(at)fr8dog.net> (sam(at)fr8dog.net) 



Yes, but      they won't do it period. I've tried to deal with the FAA on several similar      matters, I'm an IA, but it's just a loosing battle. They have their little      kingdom, cushy chairs, and GS pay schedules, and they do make up their own      rules, as they go. 

I've given up............let someone else fight that      battle, that's what we pay dues to EAA for, right.    

	


   Unless the EAA knows there is a problem,    they can't do much about it.  Any chance you'd be willing to give them a    call to let them know there is an issue with your local FSDO?  Hopefully    they can then take it from there. 



-Dj 







href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

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_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

Bob, I agree with you, but there are requirements for 

TSO even on a homebuilt/experimental/amateur built:

   

  ELT 

IFR GPS

Transponder

   

  I agree encoder is not a TSO item, and if it passes 

the 24 month pitot / static test than its good.

   

  >From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)

 	  Quote: 	
		  Subject: Re: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

   
	


  >There is no requirement  that any piece of equipment be TSO'd. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  The only requirement is that  it perform properly.



What am I missing here? Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

Ancient Aviator


	


        Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

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gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

Great post. 100% right on.

   

  With the web you have advice of many, and everyone 

is in such agreement, plus lots of excellent advice,  

  you should be encouraged.

   

  1 Go to different shop

  2 Call EAA, get all the regs references to back you up.

  3 Call the FAA and politely ask, "educate me?"

  4 Than challenge FAA to advice shop its OK. 

  (EAA not sure they make calls for you, but their legal will advise you.)

   

   

  Once you educate them if you  have, they will know 

they're wrong and it would make them look bad; 

 they will agree and tell the shop it's OK to do a  

Pitot Static test. That is ALL it is a TEST for accuracy, 

  not certification of the equip.

   

  Sometimes its ego and they don't want to back down, 

  but they will if you have the information. It's not even 

  a gray area. They are  wrong.

   

  Some times you have to take a stand. Be an 

  advocate for all EAA'ers. You can do it and it 

  will not take that much time. You can do it 

  all on the phone most likely.

   

  Here are some Reg Ref links for FUN?

   

  Sec. 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude 

  reporting equipment and use. 

    [b]http://www.ferrer-aviation.com/far91215.htm

[/b]

   

  Sec. 91.217 - Data correspondence between 

  automatically reported pressure altitude data 

  and the pilot's altitude reference.

  http://www.ferrer-aviation.com/far91217.htm[/url]

   

  TSO-10b (altimeter)

  [url=http://tinyurl.com/2f8rla]http://tinyurl.com/2f8rla

   

  TSO-C88 (alt reporting / digitizing)

  http://tinyurl.com/2ez4a3

   

  Don't panic, when you see TSO. It's a definition and 

  many sections of part 91 Ref.  part 21, 23, 34, 43, 47 & 

  TSO's  to name a few. None (almost) apply to experimentals.

      [quote][b]

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gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: IFR GPS requirements/TSO-88C

I did some more research and here is the break 

down of TSO'ed equip, including encoder in an 

experimental plane.

 

Great thread on BMA. Check out page 2 and even 

more page 3, which are most relevant.



  http://tinyurl.com/2au2pe

 

Paper on legality of experimental EFIS (encoder, 

altimeter, GPS, aka none TSO) in experimentals.



  http://tinyurl.com/2fbloa

 

Bottom line is the pitot/static test is not an approval 

of the equip. As the builder you state it meets the 

TSO. I posted on Dynon's forum the same 

question. Some manufactures like GRT say their 

encoder meets the TSO.



        Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

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