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Koolmat Installation
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rv(at)thelefflers.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Les,



Don't fret, I still have my 180......



You're in good company!



bob



[quote] 

 From: LES KEARNEY <Kearney(at)shaw.ca>

 Date: 2008/02/14 Thu PM 07:51:18 EST

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Koolmat Installation

 

 Kelly

 

 Now you have outed me. The whole RV world now knows I am a closet Piper driver....

 

 I have been under my Cherokee panel, its not that bad - not great but not bad. But I do take your point. 

 

 Cheers

 

 Les

 

 ---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

We built our own aircraft....we are not certificated...WE work on our aircraft because WE like it, NOT paid to do it...not because it its labor intense. We build our aircaft to EXCEED industry practices. I know there are a lot of good A&P's out there...I just wish someone would take away their bubble gum, duct/speed tape and safety wire fixes.



Rick Sked

40185

do not archive

---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

OK...



Koolmat is intended as a FIRE BARRIER. It is intended to be installed on the engine side firewall. Ask all the NASCAR drivers who experienced catastropic engine fires last year how it worked, it's standard equipment. If you have a problem with inspecting your firewall, don't use it. I have it on mine, it is held by a perimeter bead of red RTV. I can peel it off without much trouble, I have done it once already. If you want to bat around the inspection of the firewall issue then fine, I can pull my stainless steel  heat valves off, loosen my eyeball cable guides, remove my firewall mounted electrial connectors and see my firewall in about an hours worth of work. BUT....if I prang a landing, the last thing I'm worrying about is the firewall. The firewall is really not a structural piece. The weldments and adjoining structural members are the parts that will absorb the impact and show signs of STRUCTURAL failure. Yes the firewall will wrinkle, but get on your back, scoot your ass under the panel and see what is really bent. Most of us elected to use the koolmat to prevent heat buldup in the tunnel. It is a fiberglass mat with a pure silicone finish. It is NOT a insulator...it is intended to keep FLAMES from breaching the firewall. So screw your indifference. Rob has spelled it out..read the spec sheet on the stuff and decide if you want it or not...Look at a tube and frame aircraft, the firewall only is intended to keep flames away from the cockpit...not provide structural integrity. I'm off the soap box...



Risk Sked

40185

Koolmat user

---

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Looks like Koolmat installation might become the next 'primer war'

<gag>.



I installed Koolmat on the engine side of the firewall about 12 months

ago when 'tunnel heat' was the hot topic (bad pun - sorry).  It was my

attempt to reduce any radiant heat affects that drove tunnel temps and I

used red RTV for attachment.  I also installed a layer of Koolmat on the

tunnel floor, attached with velcro in answer to Lew's question below.  I

have also heard of builders here in Oz using snap fasteners and even s/s

screws to pin the mat in position, but I doubt that velcro would be up

to the mission in the engine compartment.  Just another 0.02 worth.



Cheers,

Ron



--

n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Hey!  After learning in the Katana, I moved on to the big iron.  A Cherokee,

then up to the Arrow.  Then finally into a 1979 182.  All good aeroplanes.

So, Les, my good man, I'm with you in being a proud Piper / Cessna driver.

Good background for appreciating the experimental / RV world.  



John Jessen

  Glastar flying

  RV-10 building (sort of)



Do not archive 



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

I'm struggling a bit with this concept of radiant heating of the 

firewall. It is behind the engine baffling, gets airflow after it passes 

through the cylinders, so only the exhaust system is radiating any 

direct heat towards the firewall, absent an uncontained fire. Maybe this 

product would help on the lower half of the firewall, but surely there 

is no significant radiant heating of the upper half of the firewall. 

Other than at very low airspeed or taxing, there probably isn't 

significant radiant heat on  the lower firewall either.



William Curtis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Kelly,



 Based on your concerns below, I think the Koolmat may be a waste of money for you.  You may be better served by looking at a product designed specifically for the cabin side of the firewall.



 By placing the Koolmat on the cabin side of the firewall, you eliminate one of the principal benefits of the Koolmat, that of reduction of radiant heating of the firewall and everything that is attached to it.  The fibers in the Koolmat are impregnated and would be difficult to absorb moisture.  Certainly being able to inspect the firewall is valuable, however I think this could be done from the cabin side.



 I used red RTV and the engine mount to hold mine in place.  The most challenging part was neatly making all the cutouts for the various items passing through the firewall.



 William

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

 "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

 -- Dr. Suess

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

The manufacturer "is" the builder, not the various suppliers.  The RV-10

is a great example of a lot of experimental products coming together

into a unique final creation by us.  At times like these, the words of

Richard come to mind this Christmas as we discussed the 51% Committee

accomplishments and his role as Co-Chair.



"There are no standards in Experimental Built - there are now 29,000

finished experiments flying in the system".  In the certified world,

every prudent manufacturer has a firewall that allows for inspection at

each annual.  The firewall tells a lot about dissimilar metal corrosion,

wire chafing, and stresses endured during the previous period since last

inspection and other valuable observations. One side tends to show these

better than the other.



Probably Kelly's extensive experience as an IA and his desire for safe

operations clouded his views on the experimental portion of this

pursuit.  Maybe the words "on a wing and a prayer" came to his mind.

Periodically, get a trained pair of eyes to look over your shoulder as

you travel down life's highway.



Good luck, Choose Wisely and fly safe.



John Cox

40600

Do not Archive



--

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Kelly



Given these politically correct days, I am not sure the CO2 emissions from a

coal fired, steam powered RV would be acceptable.....



Cheers



Les



--

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Lew



When I spoke to Patty at Koolmat today she suggested using a product called

"gorilla snot" (I kid you not) to secure the Koolmat. She said it was also

called "3M Yellow" so I think this is it:



http://www.3mestore.com/62214006090.html?WT.mc_id=3M-com-AtoZ-Super-Weathers

trip-Adhesive



She also mentioned that you must use a silicone based adhesive to join

sheets.



Cheers



Les Kearney

#40643

C-GCWZ (reserved)



--

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Hmmm



I think that there are two different applications being discussed her.



I for one am only concerned about fire protection. Granted this is a very

low risk, I have read a few stories about engine fires that make me want to

spend a few dineros to mitigate this risk. Do a search on the VansAIrForce

website for some interesting tales...



Interestingly, one of the places where fire can enter the cockpit is via the

floor. It seems that an engine fire will flow under the firewall and melt

the bottom skin. I plan to line the full floor area with Koolmat to mitigate

this risk as well. 



The other application being discussed is about insulation. Here I don't care

so much. I fly in places were a -25c days is not uncommon in winter. So if

its heat, bring it on....



Cheers



Les Keaney

#40643

C-GCWZ (reserved)



--

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

So why not a solar energized steam turbine? Or algae derived biodiesel

fired steam boiler? Where's the real experimental here anyway? Lycs

and auto derived internal combustion is sooooooooo passe, eh?

Perhaps Rick is right...if you can mount the Koolmat on the front side

in a way that it is easily removable for inspections, it just might be

the trick, although in Alberta, you probably need another insulation

on the back side.



On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  Kelly



  Given these politically correct days, I am not sure the CO2 emissions from a

  coal fired, steam powered RV would be acceptable.....



  Cheers



  Les

dougpflyrv(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Koolmat Installation

RON, DO U FEEL IT HELPED REDUCE TUNNEL HEAT?

 DOUG PRESTON

 N372RV

 

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 

   

 

   

 

 --

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Well, I did not intend to start a "Koolmat War" when I asked the  

original question! However, as always, the list is priceless for all  

of the points of view and sources of information. Thanks to all for  

the responses. There was never any question from me about what side  

it goes on. It is made for the firewall side. I just wanted some  

ideas about how to secure it, and now I have that!

Thanks to all.



David Maib

40559

Engine should be hung next week!



do not archive

On Feb 14, 2008, at 9:14 PM, Rick Sked wrote:






OK...



Koolmat is intended as a FIRE BARRIER. It is intended to be installed  

on the engine side firewall. Ask all the NASCAR drivers who  

experienced catastropic engine fires last year how it worked, it's  

standard equipment. If you have a problem with inspecting your  

firewall, don't use it. I have it on mine, it is held by a perimeter  

bead of red RTV. I can peel it off without much trouble, I have done  

it once already. If you want to bat around the inspection of the  

firewall issue then fine, I can pull my stainless steel  heat valves  

off, loosen my eyeball cable guides, remove my firewall mounted  

electrial connectors and see my firewall in about an hours worth of  

work. BUT....if I prang a landing, the last thing I'm worrying about  

is the firewall. The firewall is really not a structural piece. The  

weldments and adjoining structural members are the parts that will  

absorb the impact and show signs of STRUCTURAL failure. Yes the  

firewall will wrinkle, but get on your back, scoot your a!

  ss under the panel and see what is really bent. Most of us elected  

to use the koolmat to prevent heat buldup in the tunnel. It is a  

fiberglass mat with a pure silicone finish. It is NOT a  

insulator...it is intended to keep FLAMES from breaching the  

firewall. So screw your indifference. Rob has spelled it out..read  

the spec sheet on the stuff and decide if you want it or not...Look  

at a tube and frame aircraft, the firewall only is intended to keep  

flames away from the cockpit...not provide structural integrity. I'm  

off the soap box...



Risk Sked

40185

Koolmat user

---

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Actually I didn't man to imply that the firewall was not structural but to inspect the firewall and not the structure behind it might allow one to miss damage to the structure behind the firewall.



Rick Sked

40185

---

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Koolmat Installation

One of the largest contributors to deaths in aviation is post crash fires  often caused by ruptured fuel tanks...has anyone reviewed fuel cell  bladders?



The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards.  AOL Music takes you there.

  [quote][b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Choices, choices. How do you feel about an extra 35-40 lbs empty weight? 

I would presume you would want to do slow build wings if you go that 

direction.



GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   One of the largest contributors to deaths in aviation is post crash 

 fires often caused by ruptured fuel tanks...has anyone reviewed fuel 

 cell bladders?

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

nicholscatoauto(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Les

 

 A word of caution when using the 3M yellow. If you use it you will have a very tough time to remove the Koolmat for inspection. It is a contact cement made for installing automotive weather stripping. It will make your installation permanent. Good stuff though for gluing together non similar items. I think for inspection purposes the silicone bead will work much better.

 

 Just a thought

 Jeff Nichols

 

 

 --

KiloPapa

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Maybe you could place a scrap of Koolmat on your keyboard

before you type....



Kevin

40494

----- Original Message Follows -----

From: Rick Sked <ricksked(at)embarqmail.com>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Koolmat Installation

Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:14:58 -0500 (EST)



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<ricksked(at)embarqmail.com>



OK...



Koolmat is intended as a FIRE BARRIER. It is intended to be

installed on the engine side firewall. Ask all the NASCAR

drivers who experienced catastropic engine fires last year

how it worked, it's standard equipment. If you have a

problem with inspecting your firewall, don't use it. I have

it on mine, it is held by a perimeter bead of red RTV. I

can peel it off without much trouble, I have done it once

already. If you want to bat around the inspection of the

firewall issue then fine, I can pull my stainless steel 

heat valves off, loosen my eyeball cable guides, remove my

firewall mounted electrial connectors and see my firewall

in about an hours worth of work. BUT....if I prang a

landing, the last thing I'm worrying about is the firewall.

The firewall is really not a structural piece. The

weldments and adjoining structural members are the parts

that will absorb the impact and show signs of STRUCTURAL

failure. Yes the firewall will wrinkle, but get on your

back, scoot your a!

 ss under the panel and see what is really bent. Most of us

elected to use the koolmat to prevent heat buldup in the

tunnel. It is a fiberglass mat with a pure silicone finish.

It is NOT a insulator...it is intended to keep FLAMES from

breaching the firewall. So screw your indifference. Rob has

spelled it out..read the spec sheet on the stuff and decide

if you want it or not...Look at a tube and frame aircraft,

the firewall only is intended to keep flames away from the

cockpit...not provide structural integrity. I'm off the

soap box...



Risk Sked

40185

Koolmat user

_________________
Kevin
40494

do not archive

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

LOL...OK...that's funny...you win.

Rick S.

---

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Koolmat Installation

Hi  

   

Thanks for the heads up. I plant to use RTV *sparingly*. I just couldn’t bring myself to use something called “gorilla snot”. My daughter would never let me hear the end of it….  

   

Cheers  

   

Les   

   

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nicholscatoauto(at)aol.com

 Sent: February-15-08 7:59 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Koolmat Installation  

  

   

Les

 

 A word of caution when using the 3M yellow. If you use it you will have a very tough time to remove the Koolmat for inspection. It is a contact cement made for installing automotive weather stripping. It will make your installation permanent. Good stuff though for gluing together non similar items. I think for inspection purposes the silicone bead will work much better.

 

 Just a thought

 Jeff Nichols

 

 

 --

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