Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Motor glider first flight

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Motor glider first flight

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Motor glider first flight

Dave DeFord and I have been flying our short winged mono-wheel Europa

for over 6 years now, and have been working on interchangeable long

wings for the past four years or so.  We finally finished them and had

our first flight yesterday morning.

There was no drama, everything went well.  We got in a total of four

flights, two each.  A few comments are as follows;



1) There is a slight tendency to roll right, most noticeable a 100+ kts.

We are not sure yet what is causing this.



2) Very preliminary tests of the minimum sink rate were 400 fpm (at 50

kts indicated), later test indicated 350 fpm (at 52 kts indicated) after

taping up the aileron and airbrake gaps.  We had hoped for 250-280 fpm,

so we need to look for ways to improve this.  Fairings for the

fixed-down outriggers are probably a good place to start.



3) The airbrakes are not as effective as the spoilers on the Katana

Extreme we got our glider ratings in last September.  The air brakes

also cause a pitch/speed change, which causes some porpoising on landing

if the brakes are used to modulate your approach/flare.  The plane also

tends to float a while in ground effect, even with full airbrakes on.



4) The mono-wheel twitchiness on the ground is greatly reduced by the

bigger, heavier wings.



5) The long wings add 103 pounds to empty weight, compared to the short

wings.



6) Stall speed is about 45 kts indicated, with and without airbrakes

applied.  As stall speed approaches, the plane just gets loose and the

nose bobs up and down.  No tendency to break, it just bobs up and down,

complaining about it.  We haven't tried accelerated stalls yet.



Please note that these test are very preliminary.



Regards,

Terry Seaver

A135 / N135TD

Pleasanton, CA

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Motor glider first flight

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Terry and Dave,

 Congratulations.

  

 In my flight testing of the glider wing you have about the right numbers on  sink.  The sink rate is affected by CG location, aircraft weight, prop,  etc.  It really varies plane to plane.

  

 The two tri gear I've helped finished can't get below 60 KIAS without  starting a high sink rate, but they were nose heavy and fat aircraft (58.5  to 59 inch empty CG and 1050 lbs).

  

 The airbrakes do cause a decided nose down pitch moment and when deployed  above about 85 KIAS they tend to vibrate.

 Honestly, the Europa Motorglider is an airplane with soaring capability  rather than a glider.

  

 In checking out others, I emphasize use of the airbrakes early, and when  approaching the flare lock them closed to prevent a possible nose down pitch  close to the ground and insufficient altitude to correct.  I have no  experience with the mono motorglider, but the tri gear bleeds off airspeed even  with an Airmaster prop at a 1800 rpm idle.  Crossing the threshold  above 70 KIAS is good for a long float though.

  

 The ailerons are a bit heavy and the slightest roll, easily corrected at  low speed, requires more pressure to counter than I care to hold at higher  speed.   I will never have a set of glider wings built in this  shop without aileron trim.  I have adjusted the airbrakes to try to  help a heavy wing but aileron trim is best.  Assuming the ball is centered  of course.

  

 Without a trim tab, I used the glider technique of adding a shim of filler  under the elevator which re-contoured the lower surface.  I added a  1/16 inch high by 1 inch wedge of filler to the lower surface trailing edge of  the aileron needing to be raised, then flew, sanded the wedge of filler  down a little and flew again and repeated until it balanced well.  I  then painted it and you can't even tell I contoured the surface, and it  flew really square...

  

 I hope others with more experience can pipe up and give us all a little  more insight.

  

 Again,

 Congrats

  

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight Creations

 [quote]   ---

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Motor glider first flight

Terry & Dave,



Congratulations!



I imagine that your sink rate tests were with the engine off and the 

prop feathered?

Did the CG change with the long wings installed? Best LD will be found 

near the aft limit.

Have you sealed the gaps in the wing root?



Glad to hear you guys are gliding... Kevin



Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  

 Dave DeFord and I have been flying our short winged mono-wheel Europa

 for over 6 years now, and have been working on interchangeable long

 wings for the past four years or so.  We finally finished them and had

 our first flight yesterday morning.

 There was no drama, everything went well.  We got in a total of four

 flights, two each.  A few comments are as follows;



 1) There is a slight tendency to roll right, most noticeable a 100+ kts.

 We are not sure yet what is causing this.



 2) Very preliminary tests of the minimum sink rate were 400 fpm (at 50

 kts indicated), later test indicated 350 fpm (at 52 kts indicated) after

 taping up the aileron and airbrake gaps.  We had hoped for 250-280 fpm,

 so we need to look for ways to improve this.  Fairings for the

 fixed-down outriggers are probably a good place to start.



 3) The airbrakes are not as effective as the spoilers on the Katana

 Extreme we got our glider ratings in last September.  The air brakes

 also cause a pitch/speed change, which causes some porpoising on landing

 if the brakes are used to modulate your approach/flare.  The plane also

 tends to float a while in ground effect, even with full airbrakes on.



 4) The mono-wheel twitchiness on the ground is greatly reduced by the

 bigger, heavier wings.



 5) The long wings add 103 pounds to empty weight, compared to the short

 wings.



 6) Stall speed is about 45 kts indicated, with and without airbrakes

 applied.  As stall speed approaches, the plane just gets loose and the

 nose bobs up and down.  No tendency to break, it just bobs up and down,

 complaining about it.  We haven't tried accelerated stalls yet.



 Please note that these test are very preliminary.



 Regards,

 Terry Seaver

 A135 / N135TD

 Pleasanton, CA

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Motor glider first flight

Hi Kevin,



Sorry for the confusion, I should have mentioned that the sink numbers

were with the engine at idle, with an Airmaster prop.  The sink rate can

be expected to be better with the engine off and prop feathered, which

we haven't had the opportunity to do yet.  Our Europa motorglider has

noticeably greater sink at engine idle than the Katana Extreme we

trained on last fall.  The Katana has a 914 with a two bladed prop, ours

is a 912S with three bladed prop.  It may be the three bladed prop that

makes the biggest difference between the two planes (although the higher

compression 912S may also contribute to the difference).  When we

changed over from the two bladed Whirlwind to the three bladed

Airmaster, the only noticeable change in performance between the two was

the braking effect at engine idle, with the Airmaster providing greater

braking.



We will get some engine off/prop feathered data as soon as we get a

weekend with suitable weather.



Regards,

Terry





--

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Motor glider first flight

On Monday, Mar 3, 2008, at 12:55 US/Pacific, Terry Seaver (terrys) 

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Our Europa motorglider has noticeably greater sink at engine idle than 

 the Katana Extreme we

 trained on last fall.


	


Terry,



If this isn't too dumb a question... but were you training for a glider 

rating in a powered sailplane or were you training for a powered 

sailplane rating (which I didn't think existed)?



Fred

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: Motor glider first flight

Hi Fred,



I got a rating for glider, self launched, which is different from glider, towed.



-Terry



--

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Motor glider first flight

Hi Kevin,



We went out this morning and performed some sink rate tests with the engine off and the prop feathered.  We got 270 fpm at 52 KIAS (59 kts TAS) at 7000 ft altitude, and 357 fpm at 60 KIAS (68 kts TAS).  These are still somewhat preliminary numbers due to weather conditions this morning.  The glide ratios are about 22:1 at 52 KIAS and 19:1 at 60 KIAS.  This seems a little odd, as I would have expected 60 kts to be better than 52 kts, but as I said, this is rather preliminary.



We have used glider tape to gap seal the wing roots, ailerons, and air brakes.  We do not yet have fairings for the outrigger legs and do not have cowl flaps yet.  We expect both of those things to improve sink rate / glide ratio, especially at the higher speeds.



Our CG with the short wings is 58.9" (900 pounds), and with the long wings is 60.4" (1003 pounds).  The long wings moved our CG to the rear almost an inch, to just aft of nominal center of range.



regards,

Terry Seaver

A135 / N135TD (motor glider at the moment)

Pleasanton, CA



--

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum