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Breaker / switch question?

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michaega(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Is it a good idea to have an alternator breaker switch located somewhere, and if so what Amp for a 50amp Alternator? Again how about a breaker and a switch for a master bus, I have items needing 10 and 15 amp, and what would the recommended Amp be ?  I have searched for info but have not come up with anything concrete to show me the way.

  

 George



 [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

George:  

   

Without a load meter I’d only go for a 40A breaker (80% load)  If you have a load meter then go for the full 50A.  This is error on the safe side.    

   

Same thing goes for the load..  With a load meter you can install up to 50 amps of load.. if something goes for a crap you will see it on the meter and be able to shut down load to stay inside parameters (50A)  Without a load meter you should only install a maximum of 80%  of your generating capacity  That way you shouldn’t have to do any load shedding at any phase of flight.  

   

   

   

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C88309.5C9BAE30[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SUE MICHAELS

 Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:38 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Breaker / switch question?  

  

  

       

Is it a good idea to have an alternator breaker switch located somewhere, and if so what Amp for a 50amp Alternator? Again how about a breaker and a switch for a master bus, I have items needing 10 and 15 amp, and what would the recommended Amp be ?  I have searched for info but have not come up with anything concrete to show me the way.  

    

   

    

George  

  

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Breaker / switch question?

This would seem to me a very unusual setup, switch breakers are not very

reliable. I'd go with a fuse or breaker, and put a switch on the alternator

field. This is all you need to get the alternator off line in an emergency.



Regards,

Jeff

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

At 06:07 PM 3/10/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is it a good idea to have an alternator breaker switch located 

somewhere, and if so what Amp for a 50amp Alternator? Again how 

about a breaker and a switch for a master bus, I have items needing 

10 and 15 amp, and what would the recommended Amp be ?  I have 

searched for info but have not come up with anything concrete to 

show me the way.


	




Hi George,

         It sounds like you need to get familiar with Bob Nucholl's 

AeroElectric Connection. (www.aeroelectric.com) He has great 

information on nearly every permutation of small aircraft wiring 

system. I highly recommend his book. He also moderates a list on 

Matronics; you can sign up the same way you signed up for this one. 

(http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/)

         As to your question, the way Bob handles an alternator is to 

use what he calls a crowbar over-voltage protection module coupled 

with an over voltage relay. The module senses high voltage and shorts 

the field supply to ground, opening a simple 5A breaker and shutting 

down the alternator. There's a lot more to it, technically, but I'll 

let Bob tell it.

         Bob also doesn't have breakers or fuses for bus feeds. (In 

my bird, the bus is the fuse block.) He does use a double pole switch 

to energize it. Let me know if you need specifics.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

I would order a standard aircraft split master switch as it has both the alt

switch and the master bus switch.  I used that with a continues duty

solenoid for the master bus.  As for your2 loads is that the rated load or

the suggested fuse?  Remember that startup load will be higher.



--

l.morris(at)tx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Unlike Guy I don't agree with him on that electrical book. I bought it and I thought it was a waste of the $33.00.It deals with scientific, theory Q and A was is something used in electrical engineering classes.During my aviation career I've learned all about switches ,breakers,and busses.Batt busses,main busses,essential busses,avionics, cross-town busses etc. As a builder I wand to know what I need, where do I get it, how do I put it together and hook it up. I don't want to design it from scratch, electron by electron. That's what I'm interested in. --- Leon Morris/Classic 4/60%/Flower Mound, TX  

---- Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	

 At 06:07 PM 3/10/2008, you wrote:

 >Is it a good idea to have an alternator breaker switch located 

 >somewhere, and if so what Amp for a 50amp Alternator? Again how 

 >about a breaker and a switch for a master bus, I have items needing 

 >10 and 15 amp, and what would the recommended Amp be ?  I have 

 >searched for info but have not come up with anything concrete to 

 >show me the way.

 Hi George,

          It sounds like you need to get familiar with Bob Nucholl's 

 AeroElectric Connection. (www.aeroelectric.com) He has great 

 information on nearly every permutation of small aircraft wiring 

 system. I highly recommend his book. He also moderates a list on 

 Matronics; you can sign up the same way you signed up for this one. 

 (http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/)

          As to your question, the way Bob handles an alternator is to 

 use what he calls a crowbar over-voltage protection module coupled 

 with an over voltage relay. The module senses high voltage and shorts 

 the field supply to ground, opening a simple 5A breaker and shutting 

 down the alternator. There's a lot more to it, technically, but I'll 

 let Bob tell it.

          Bob also doesn't have breakers or fuses for bus feeds. (In 

 my bird, the bus is the fuse block.) He does use a double pole switch 

 to energize it. Let me know if you need specifics.

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

michaega(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

These question are to make me comfortable. I have read enough to contradict my ever setup. I figured I would ask those who have built a nice but simple setup that has worked.

  

 1.  ?? I want to the feed and to return the wire from the alternator to a switch on the panel.  14 ? 16 ? 18 ? wire gauge for alternator wire. Should the return wire connect directly to the battery? Cold side of master solenoid (master off) or where?  Should I fuse this? I have 50 amp alternator.

  

 2.  ??  Master switch one wire goes Directly from the panel switch to the Master solenoid (small connector) and the other to airframe ground.  Wire size ??   No fuse??

  

 3. ??  Hot wire feed for the panel should come from where?  Direct from battery?  Cold side of master solenoid (master off) ?  The ignition switch ? Or where? This should be fused I assume with maybe 40 amp since I have 50 amp alternator and many panel circuits.

  

 Any other Ideas that don't blow a budget that has no funds left in it would be greatly appreciated.

  

 Thanks George

 

 

 ---

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: Re: Breaker / switch question?

The Tony Bingelis book Firewall Forward has a number of generic wiring diagrams. They range from simple to complex.  I am using one of them to wire my Kitfox II right now.  I am using Klixon breakers with separate switchs.



Cheers

Ken

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

There is a convention that says to put the breaker as close to the busses as

possible.  Attached directly to the buss is good.  I also have a relay at

the battery to protect the whole system from a short.



Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A, 582,B box going to 912

Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

randy(at)romeolima.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

---

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Randy, I am an RV "lurker" and am rebuilding a Mod 3 Kitfox that was originally built in 93. It was hit by a car while on a trailer. Good to have an RV'er on board. I figure the Kitfox is a low and slow bush plane and the RV a get up and go plane for cross counrty. Airplanes are like automobiles or motorcycles. They have a designated use and envelope of performance. Compromise to accomplish it all just doesn't work. Although, I just found out the Kitfox 7 with a 914 Turbo will cruise at 150 mph. I'd really love to have an RV 4. I "lurk" on Van's Airforce and Barnstormers for a deal on an RV 4 with damage or no engine. I missed an RV 4, no fwf for $7000. Sold 1st day. I wonder why? Anyway, welcome aboard. What is your location? This site is the motherlode of Kitfox info.

 Do not archieve

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL



[quote] From: randy(at)romeolima.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Breaker / switch question?

 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:04:43 -0700

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com>

 

 ---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Ditto on the Potter & Brumfield breaker/switches. Somebody earlier  

said they were not good, but I beg to differ. The only problem that  

I've found with them is when the sun was beating on my panel, and one  

of them kicked out. It was a 5 amp breaker in the starter circuit.  

(Don't get alarmed, guys...this is just to protect the wire that goes  

to the starter button to engage the starter solenoid) I simply held  

it "on" until I started the engine, then let it go. It worked fine.  

Since then I simply don't park where the sun can beat on the panel,  

and if that is not possible, I cover the breakers with a white rag,  

and all systems are go. It's never happened since then.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/480+ hrs

On Mar 16, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Randy Lervold wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <randy(at)romeolima.com>

  We use Potter-Brumfield breaker/switches all the time in the RV  

 world and they work fine. Bob Nuckolls has no problem with them  

 either.



 Randy Lervold

 www.rv-8.com

 www.rv-3.com

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

randy(at)romeolima.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Thanks Pat, I'm up in the Portland, Oregon area, Van's  back yard. I plan to start a Super Sport soon. Just let  me know if I can help with anything, I'm an active EAA Technical Counselor and  Flight Advisor as well.

  

 Randy

  

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Lynn:  

I quite agree with you about the breaker switches but It is true that if you are using the switches several times each day they will wear out and break open sooner and sooner.  When that happens replace them.  I am  bit surprised that your starter energized draws close to five amps (at) 12V  I don’t think mine draws a full amp.  

   

Ever notice the number of those switches used in commercial planes??    

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C887A6.D914D080[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, (out) Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

--

image001.jpg

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Viewed:

7721 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

At 09:04 AM 3/16/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Just curious, don't the Kitfox plans come with a suggested wiring diagram?


	


HAHAHAHAHA! Hooo. Heee. (Eye wipe emoticon.) Sorry. Couldn't resist. 

I can only hope John's improved this area of the manual.



Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

runwayrex(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Hmmmmm. 

I bought my Model 3 kit in 1990 and it came with a pretty nice wiring diagram that I just had to modify slightly for my application. It "may" have been produced by Rotax but it came with the Kitfox kit. 

Rex in Michigan / 639 hours / 912 UL / Warp 

-- Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>



At 09:04 AM 3/16/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Just curious, don't the Kitfox plans come with a suggested wiring diagram?


	


HAHAHAHAHA! Hooo. Heee. (Eye wipe emoticon.) Sorry. Couldn't resist. 

I can only hope John's improved this area of the manual.



Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob D================================================================================================================================================sp;                      -Matt Dra=========================================



 



_____________________________________________________________

Free information - Learn about the best Cell Phone Accessories. Click here.

   [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

Noel-



The starter breaker is only to protect the wire that runs from the 5  

amp breaker behind the panel to the starter button. The only reason  

that I used a 5 amp is because those particular breakers don't come  

in anything less than that, and I wanted all the switches to look the  

same. Probably a *real* electrical person would shudder at that  

thought, but other people might not even have a breaker in that  

application.

When they fail, I'll definitely junk 'em and replace. But in two  

years of service, and 482 hours of operation, the one breaker has  

only given me a problem that one time. And it opened  as the result  

of the sun beating on the black panel. And when it cooled, operation  

was normal. But before it cooled and would stick closed on its own, I  

just held it closed and hit the starter and it worked. No problems  

since. Where I absolutely had to use a smaller breaker than the 5A.,  

I used a fuse.



Lynn



On Mar 16, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] Lynn:



 I quite agree with you about the breaker switches but It is true  

 that if you are using the switches several times each day they will  

 wear out and break open sooner and sooner.  When that happens  

 replace them.  I am  bit surprised that your starter energized  

 draws close to five amps (at) 12V  I don’t think mine draws a full amp.



 Ever notice the number of those switches used in commercial planes??



 <image001.jpg>



 Noel Loveys



 Campbellton, NL, Canada



 CDN AME intern, PP-Rec



 C-FINB, Kitfox III-A



 582 B box, Ivo IFA, (out) Aerocet 1100 floats



 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Breaker / switch question?

I think you will have to do a lot more than 482 hr to wear out those

breakers to the pint where they will have to be swapped out.  The good thing

is as they age they open sooner and sooner not later and later.



Better 5A than no protection at all.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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