Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Takeoff & landing & stall help

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Takeoff & landing & stall help

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

Grant, I'll reply to one of your questions......

On 16, Mar 2008, at 8:33 PM, grantr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Is it ok to hold the tail on the ground until rotation speed?



Just once I tried the old "jump takeoff" technique I used on the  
	


Aeronca 11AC

with my MkIII. -Stick hard back to liftoff.  Not a good method.

Let the plane lighten up on its own and fly off when it feels like it.

This is, of course, with stock aluminum legs.  It might be a  

different plane

with long legs.

BB



 	  Quote: 	
		   Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170251#170251

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

"grantr" wrote: << He has military headsets and 1 GA headset. I have

comtronic which is not compatable. I bought a cord thats suppose to

adapt the GA headset to my comtronics.  The head set works but the GA

mic doesnt work. >>



Hi, Grant -



Military headsets and civilian GA headsets operate with different

impedance levels - that is why the military sets won't work with our GA

intercoms.



And the Comtronics intercom will only work with Comtronics headsets.  I

know this, because I have a set (2 helmets w/built-in headsets and

intercom).  After I finished my initial 40 hours of flight testing, I no

longer used the helmet, and began using a regular GA headset.  I found

that it would not work with the Comtronics intercom box.  Like you, I

purchased (from Comtronics) a patch cord that interfaced between my GA

headset and the intercom, but my GA headsets STILL did not work.  Just

like you said, you can hear, but the mike does not work.  



When I called Comtronics to ask them why, they revealed to me that

because of impedance differences between their headsets and GA headsets,

the Comtronics intercom is not compatible with GA headsets.  ("Great," I

thought - "why couldn't they have told me this BEFOREhand?")  At least

they refunded me my $45 for the patch cord.



My solution was to simply buy a regular GA intercom box.



Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912ul, Powerfin-72 in

Cedar Crest, NM

do not archive

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

At 12:27 PM 3/17/2008, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  And the Comtronics intercom will only work with Comtronics headsets...

because of impedance differences between their headsets and GA headsets,

the Comtronics intercom is not compatible...


	


Funny, though, my Comtronics helmet works perfectly with my Icom A24 radio, 

which also supposedly works with GA headsets.



-Dana



--

  "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

> I have had a few good comments and tips. Does anyone else want to chime 

in? Come on guys i know you all have some sort of technique. 

Grant:



I don't think there is any "special" techinique to fly a Kolb.



I think the name of the game is to fly the aircraft and not let the aircraft 

fly you.



Using 40 degrees of flaps, idle power, to shoot an approach is not 

technically demanding.  Got to keep the aircraft above stall speed with 

enough speed at the bottom to do a little flare and touch down.  No need to 

adjust flaps, throttle, or anything else except the control stick.  If you 

need to go faster, push the stick forward, if you want to slow up, pull it 

back.  The approach will be steep, much steeper than other airplanes, more 

like a rotary wing approach and landing.



If you were shooting a landing into a postage stamp field, use a little 

throttle to help you hit your mark.  I can do this and keep my left hand on 

the throttle and my right hand on the stick.  I am not busy moving my hand 

from one control to another.  Keep it simple.  It is a very simple aircraft. 

Why make it complex?



Kolbs fly like any other three axis aircraft.  The pilot must make the 

proper decision to control the aircraft and not vice versa.



If you want to do full stall landings, do them a few inches above the 

ground, not 10 feet.  If you want to do a wheel landing, fly the darn thing 

onto the ground.



I flew a Legend Cub the other day with a 100 hp tractor engine.  Darn thing 

landed just like my Kolb MKIII.  Granted, it did float a little more, but 

basically I controlled it basically the same way.  I very seldom fly any 

other aircraft except Kolbs.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

At 09:03 PM 3/18/2008, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I flew a Legend Cub the other day with a 100 hp tractor engine.  Darn 

thing landed just like my Kolb MKIII.  Granted, it did float a little 

more, but basically I controlled it basically the same way.


	


Interesting, when I flew my US for the first time I thought it handled very 

much like the T-Craft I used to own (and, pleasantly, NOT like the Quick I 

had recently been flying).  The biggest difference was that slips in the 

T-Craft actually _did_ something.



I wonder, has anybody ever added flapperons to an UltraStar?



-Dana





--

  "You sure it's broken?  Let me make sure..."

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

Just a thought here;

On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to  hold the speed and  angle of climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was instructed this way .It's like a soft field  takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff roll.



---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

Gary A:

  

 Had to sit here a minute to think how I  made my normal takeoffs.

  

 Usually, depending on the airstrip, I keep the  throttle centered, when the tail starts up, I keep it level, at flying speed a  little aft stick, and we are flying.  At Lakeland and Oshkosh, we usually  pick up a main wheel a little early to coax the aircraft into flying a little  early.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always    begun the roll with stick back and held it here until the wheels lifted then    slowly eased the stick forward to  hold the speed and  angle of    climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was instructed this way .It's like a    soft field  takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff roll.

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

Morning Gang:

  

  "Usually, depending on the airstrip, I keep  the throttle centered, when the tail starts up, I"

  

  

 Naw, I don't keep the throttle centered on takeoff,  I keep the control stick centered, but I do have the throttle WAO.   

  

 john h

 mkIII

   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

I’m Open for an education here…  but I was told that the shortest take off roll, at least from a hard surface,  was to get the tail up after adding power,  and this would allow you to accelerate faster because of reduced drag on the wing,  then pull the stick back when up to take off speed.  I have done testing,  taking off clean, 20 & 40 Deg flaps.   Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff roll,   and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter.    The explanation was that even though 40 deg of flaps should allow you to fly slower because of greater lift,   the extra drag caused a much slower acceleration.   Now I can hear you thinking between the lines…   if 40 was slower why not 20 Deg of flaps being shorter as well….   The explanation would be that if you chart the lift to drag ratio on a chart,,,,   20 deg of flaps produces quite a bit of added lift with only a small drag penalty,,,  while 40 deg of flaps, while producing a little more lift than 20 deg,  is affected by much higher drag  ratio.  In getting a tail dragger endorsement in a supper cub,, the shortest takeoff was starting with 10 deg flaps,  getting the tail up to reduce drag on the wings then, at the same time,  pulling the stick back while adding additional flaps.  Again this if from a hard surface runway,,,,   soft field takeoff would be quite different.  

   

Boyd   

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.  

Just a thought here;
	


 On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to  hold the speed and  angle of climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was instructed this way .It's like a soft field  takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff roll.  

   

       [quote][b]

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

In a message dated 3/19/2008 11:56:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  by0ung(at)brigham.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could    tell, the same takeoff roll,   and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft    shorter. 

    

    

   Boyd,

    

   I don't know what you are flying, but    my older original model Kolb FireStar, with no flaps,  gets off in about    100 feet or so now.  So, if I had flaps and used 20 degrees,    WOW!  I could lift off vertically.  No need for a runway.     hehehe

    

   Bill    Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive

	




Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:43:22 -0700 (PDT)



Just a thought here;



 	  Quote: 	
		  On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and 

held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to  

hold the speed and  angle of climb desired. Everyone who has flown it was 

instructed this way. It's like a soft field  takeoff and always gives the 

shortest takeoff roll.


	


Gary,



I believe this is good practice, as you are always ready for the unexpected. 

In most cases this will work.  Once I stopped by at a grass field to meet a 

friend.  I had asked if the field was freshly mowed and he said it was.  But 

what I didn't know and found out was that a good part of the field was 

covered by water.  On final, you could not see it from the air, but when I 

three pointed down, water flew every where.  This is where my concern for fuel 

usage let me down.  I should have flown a low flyby to check out the field.  



I tried my normal soft field takeoff three times, but I could not get off 

before hitting water.  To get off, I back taxied until I was in the middle 

of a puddle.  Then I became a little more aggressive on the throttle and let 

the tail come up.  Just before I got to the next puddle, I pulled the stick 

back against the stop and the FireFly popped up into ground effect.  If it 

had not popped, I would have had to chop the throttle, and try again. 



Flying off and on hard surface, I always use about 4 to 5 degrees of 

flaperon.  This lets the  FireFly stagger off in a three point 

attitude.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN 



do not archive

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

Grant --

Just about any method mentioned already will work in any situation.  However, I do believe each situation has a preferred method.

This is how I see it:

Method #1 : When it's a smooth turf runway, I do what John H. does, put the stick at "neutral", let the wheel come up on it's own, then when I get to flying speed, I pull back just a bit on the stick and I'm away.  (If it's --really-- smooth, I can also use Method # 3.)

Method #2 : When it's a rough or very rough field/terrain, I will intentionally bring my tailwheel up as soon as I possibly can, usually around 25-30mph, in order to minimize the stress on the tailwheel.  I then wait for about 5-10mph past flying speed and the plane usually does the rest with just some gentle persuasion on the stick.  If I really want to get off the field quickly, then at flying speed, I'll pop it up with a quick pull on the stick, then push the stick back down so I'm flying in ground effect, then wait for my airspeed to build before I pull up.

Method #3 : When it's a hard surface runway, I can do either of the two above, or I can just pull back the stick all the way, and wait for the plane to take off on it's own, then adjust the angle until I'm at best-climb.  However, since I feel it's less stressful on the aircraft to use Method # 1, then I'll usually do that even on hard-surface or very-smooth-turf runways.

Anytime there is a possibility for gusts to hit me during my take-off roll, I might try to keep the tailwheel down a bit longer, as long as I don't think it will harm it... but where it's gusting and I have to pick up the tailwheel, well, I "get ready" for anything that might get thrown at me and get "happy feet" and a 'lively hand" when the gust comes a callin'.  

  -- Robert

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:43:22 -0700 (PDT)

 Just a thought here;

 >On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and

 >held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to

 >hold the speed and  angle of climb desired. Everyone who has flown it was

 >instructed this way. It's like a soft field  takeoff and always gives the

 >shortest takeoff roll.

Gary,

 I believe this is good practice, as you are always ready for the unexpected.

 In most cases this will work.  Once I stopped by at a grass field to meet a

 friend.  I had asked if the field was freshly mowed and he said it was.  But

 what I didn't know and found out was that a good part of the field was

 covered by water.  On final, you could not see it from the air, but when I

 three pointed down, water flew every where.  This is where my concern for fuel

 usage let me down.  I should have flown a low flyby to check out the field.

 I tried my normal soft field takeoff three times, but I could not get off

 before hitting water.  To get off, I back taxied until I was in the middle

 of a puddle.  Then I became a little more aggressive on the throttle and let

 the tail come up.  Just before I got to the next puddle, I pulled the stick

 back against the stop and the FireFly popped up into ground effect.  If it

 had not popped, I would have had to chop the throttle, and try again.

 Flying off and on hard surface, I always use about 4 to 5 degrees of

 flaperon.  This lets the  FireFly stagger off in a three point

 attitude.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 do not archive

[b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

I am flying a mkIII with a 912 and the testing was done on a summer day with over  6000 ft density altitude with field elevation of 4226 ft.   doesn’t sound like apples here.   But when you get it down to a vertical take off I want to see the video.  

   

Boyd   

   

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>   

In a message dated 3/19/2008 11:56:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, by0ung(at)brigham.net writes:  
	


Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff roll,   and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter.   

   

   

Boyd,  

   

I don't know what you are flying, but my older original model Kolb FireStar, with no flaps,  gets off in about 100 feet or so now.  So, if I had flaps and used 20 degrees, WOW!  I could lift off vertically.  No need for a runway.  hehehe  

   

Bill Varnes

 Original Kolb FireStar

 Audubon NJ

 Do Not Archive  

   

       [quote][b]

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

Grant

Sounds to me like your wheel alignment may be off if its that squirly on 

pavement.



Denny

---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

At 09:29 PM 3/19/2008, grantr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40 

to 45mph. It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail. 

This is usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the 

left from the engine torque and p factor..


	


Torque will only roll the plane, not yaw it.  P-factor will tend to yaw the 

plane, but only at higher angles of attack (i.e. it'll want to yaw the 

plane while the tail's down, but not afterwards).  If the plane tries to 

yaw just as you lift the tail, that's gyroscopic precession, all 

taildraggers do it to a greater or lesser extent; you just have to be ready 

for it.



A misalignment between your tailwheel and rudder could be causing it, too.



 	  Quote: 	
		    My plane does not have differential brakes on it either so its all 

 rudder for the steering. The grass landings are easier to handle than the 

 paved landings.


	


You shouldn't be using differential brakes on takeoff anyway, unless things 

_really_ get out of hand.



Grass is always easier than pavement, as there's less friction to side motion.



-Dana

--

  End rush hour traffic now! Legalize vehicular weaponry!

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: Takeoff & landing & stall help

At 06:29 PM 3/19/08 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks a lot everyone for the helpful tips.



On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40 

to 45mph. It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail. 
	


This is usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the 

left from the engine torque and p factor..  We lift off at 55 as the tires 

begin to shake from being worn and out of balance. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Grant,



It really sounds like you have a wheel alignment problem, such as toe in or 

out, or negative chamber.  Both of these are easily checked by adding some 

bags of sand to the seat(s) and rolling the plane to an fro to settle the 

gear.  A little positive chamber and zero toe-in are good. The only other 

thing that can cause such a problem is unequal or low tire pressure.  If 

tire pressure is too low, it increases rolling resistance, and as the load 

rocks from side to side it will cause yaw problems.  Raise your tire 

pressure to the max and see if it improves the situation.  My FireFly was 

wicked on hard surfaces until I fixed all of the above.  Toe-in and chamber 

can be adjusted with judicious force application with a long lever over the 

axle.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



do not archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum