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True Idenity

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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: True Idenity

I got blasted by one of this sites members about  four months ago.   I mentioned to the group that sometimes people are  not who the claim to be.    Years ago I belonged to the AvidFlyer  web group and this one member who called himself "Wang Chung" was always giving  out his suggestions on how to build and fly Avids.   Then Wang showed  up on the Jabiru site telling everyone his suggestions on the care and feeding  of the 2200 Jabby.

 Then off he went to the KitFox website.    

 Anyway, we members communicated from one site to  each other site because of common interests and similar aircraft.

 To shorten this up I ll tell you that Wang was  busted. We knew he was full of bad advice and didnt have a  clue.... Wang was not a pilot.  Was not an aircraft owner and had  absolutely no experience.    He was a wanna bee....

 Again I m probably going to upset a few or maybe  just one of you.    I read things that just dont make sense at  times and I wonder.

 In addition:  if an aircraft company is having  problems and not selling the product they offer, yet Zenith is very successful,  you might join a group like Zenith Matronics and start bullshit rumors and keep  bringing up how dangerous the wings are etc......over and over  again....

 Sure we are all interested in having safe aircraft  but the same people keep bring up the dangerous problems the Zenith 601XL  has.

 Are you really interested or are you an undercover  competitor trying to stir up more B.S.

  

 OK, time to dump on me....

  

 Steve Weston

 Im in the FAA registry and  Landings.com

  

  

    [quote][b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:53 am Post subject: True Idenity

do not archive



Hi Steve;



I am not going to be one who dumps on you - but I am one who continues to follow the developments on the XL with great interest because I had started to build before I was forced to end that effort. I like the XL. Period.



I learned to fly in the late 70s. Due to family pressures and other things I had to give up flying until now. I still have no current medical and am not flying actively at this time. When I do start again, I assume that it will be Sport Pilot.



I have spent 35 years professionally int eh experimental and developmental departments of Cessna, Lear, and now Boeing for the last 25 years. While I do acknowledge that this background might increase my proclivity to actually dig deeper than necessary, you must admit that it has given me exposure to many, many experiences of test unit failures, flight aircraft failures (many times after test units of that aircraft did not fail) as well as many aircraft that have flown for decades without failures (or at least without design related failures).



I bring this up because there are several attitudes pervasive on this list that are lethal in nature. Some believe religiously in CH being infallible (he is one of my heroes). MANY others believe that following established (by blood and grief as well as test)  baseline sheet metal procedures has been superseded by assembling a kit, there is a gross lack of understanding of aerodynamic loading phenomena. There is a very broad attitude that assembling a highly developed aircraft like the XL does not mandate a thorough self-education process before making chips. The ready availability online for FREE download of the 4 bibles for the A&P mechanic (AC65-9, AC65-12, AC65-15, and AC43.3-1B and 2A) and the 4 Tony Bingelis books that can be purchased for a 5 minute effort online.



I AM concerned because when I was a  pilot, I was not a "natural" - I sometimes over banked on the turn to final, I fell out of a departure stall and almost pulled the wings off a Cessna 150,  I have done a flyby and pulled and rolled hard at the exit. The XL is a clean airplane that meets the upper limit of the LSA only by effort. As such, it is also a plane that will readily accelerate very rapidly in the event of pilot error or false assumption.



We hear discussion of things like maneuvering speed with completely reversed theory, we hear about moving weight to allow the nosewheel to touchdown lightly, we hear about simply trying to stay inside the CG range. We do not hear about the effects on stick force per G effects of being in the aft portion of th CG range and other serious characteristics that the Big Boys spend millions of dollars to make painfully clear.



My plans for my XL were simlpe: I wanted a clean, all metal plane with a blue blood pedigree that I could prop for an aggressive  climb and never worry about the upper speed limit for LSA. I planned to operate solo other than the occasional rider. Since I recall the fun of a flyby at flyins and the like, I had assumed that this was not an issue - AND IT IS NOT. In the XL however, it demands a very close attention to the character of the plane. This is a plane that goes aft cg with fuel burn and with added occupant weight (as well as over weight with ease). This means that I have to conciously remember that  my flying technique will have to be considerably different with a passenger and full fuel that I would for the bulk of my normal flying. Since the XL has ample wing to lift the added weight and the control authority to manage that extra weight, it is very conceivable to me that I could get carried away and forget all those constraints.



None of all this is any different than for any other plane - just perhaps easier to get in trouble with.



As to the mods being discussed, I do not have  any ax to grind on any of them and have cautioned any who ask that any changes will shift the failure modes and locations. Changes are a re-design - and testing done to date are meaningless once changes have been implemented. Changes I was considering on my plane were understood to be a redesign and the aircraft would have been registered as other than an XL for that reason.



And that is why I continue to look closely at the question.



sooo, turn on the propane tank and point the nozzle in my direction!



steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:[quote]       I got blasted by one of this  sites members about  four months ago.   I mentioned to the group that sometimes people are  not who the claim to be.    Years ago I belonged to the AvidFlyer  web group and this one member who called himself "Wang Chung" was always giving  out his suggestions on how to build and fly Avids.   Then Wang showed  up on the Jabiru site telling everyone his suggestions on the care and feeding  of the 2200 Jabby.

 Then off he went to the KitFox website.    

 Anyway, we members communicated from one site to  each other site because of common interests and similar aircraft.

 To shorten this up I ll tell you that Wang was  busted. We knew he was full of bad advice and didnt have a  clue.... Wang was not a pilot.  Was not an aircraft owner and had  absolutely no experience.     He was a wanna bee....

 Again I m probably going to upset a few or maybe  just one of you.    I read things that just dont make sense at  times and I wonder.

 In addition:  if an aircraft company is having  problems and not selling the product they offer, yet Zenith is very successful,  you might join a group like Zenith Matronics and start bullshit rumors and keep  bringing up how dangerous the wings are etc......over and over  again....

 Sure we are all interested in having safe aircraft  but the same people keep bring up the dangerous problems the Zenith 601XL  has.

 Are you really interested or are you an undercover  competitor trying to stir up more B.S.

  

 OK, time to dump on  [quote][b]

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: True Idenity

Steve,



You have a good point.



On a building note, how hard is it to get the bushing 6W10-5 into the aileron bellcrank? Do I need a press or

freeze it and tap it in?

Do not Archive.



 On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:03 PM, steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net (notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]        I got blasted by one of this sites members about  four months ago.   I mentioned to the group that sometimes people are  not who the claim to be.    Years ago I belonged to the AvidFlyer  web group and this one member who called himself "Wang Chung" was always giving  out his suggestions on how to build and fly Avids.   Then Wang showed  up on the Jabiru site telling everyone his suggestions on the care and feeding  of the 2200 Jabby.

 Then off he went to the KitFox website.    

 Anyway, we members communicated from one site to  each other site because of common interests and similar aircraft.

 To shorten this up I ll tell you that Wang was  busted. We knew he was full of bad advice and didnt have a  clue.... Wang was not a pilot.  Was not an aircraft owner and had  absolutely no experience.    He was a wanna bee....

 Again I m probably going to upset a few or maybe  just one of you.    I read things that just dont make sense at  times and I wonder.

 In addition:  if an aircraft company is having  problems and not selling the product they offer, yet Zenith is very successful,  you might join a group like Zenith Matronics and start bullshit rumors and keep  bringing up how dangerous the wings are etc......over and over  again....

 Sure we are all interested in having safe aircraft  but the same people keep bring up the dangerous problems the Zenith 601XL  has.

 Are you really interested or are you an undercover  competitor trying to stir up more B.S.

  

 OK, time to dump on me....

  

 Steve Weston

 Im in the FAA registry and  Landings.com

  

  

     	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Re: True Idenity

Yeah, I only have 500 hours in on my plans built project with a website with entries and pictures at mykitlog.com and several thousand dollars invested in the project, engines and tools, not to mention the time spent making the more expensive tools, and a registered set of fairly expensive plans from Zenith, and have been a pilot for the past 14 years, all because I'm a troll. LOL



Then again, I could be exploring the issue with others here because I'm concerned about what I have a considerable amount of work in and want to see the project to completion and know it's reasonably safe and well built. You decide.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: True Idenity

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:03 PM, steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>

wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sure we are all interested in having safe aircraft but the same people

 keep bring up the dangerous problems the Zenith 601XL has.

 Are you really interested or are you an undercover competitor trying to

 stir up more B.S.


	


I can't speak to anyone else, but I'm definitely me, and easy to find: my

address is posted on my home page, and you can look up the reserved N-number

or the ham callsign and get the same data.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: True Idenity

The aileron bellcrank bushing should slide in smoothly without slop and allow the bellcrank to rotate freely around it. The bushing is held in place by the throughbolt because it's slightly longer than the thickness of the bellcrank.



Terry



ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] Steve,



You have a good point.



On a building note, how hard is it to get the bushing 6W10-5 into the aileron bellcrank? Do I need a press or

freeze it and tap it in?

Do not Archive.



 On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:03 PM, steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net (notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]        I got blasted by one of this sites members about  four months ago.   I mentioned to the group that sometimes people are  not who the claim to be.    Years ago I belonged to the AvidFlyer  web group and this one member who called himself "Wang Chung" was always giving  out his suggestions on how to build and fly Avids.   Then Wang showed  up on the Jabiru site telling everyone his suggestions on the care and feeding  of the 2200 Jabby.

 Then off he went to the KitFox website.    

 Anyway, we members communicated from one site to  each other site because of common interests and similar aircraft.

 To shorten this up I ll tell you that Wang was  busted. We knew he was full of bad advice and didnt have a  clue.... Wang was not a pilot.  Was not an aircraft owner and had   absolutely no experience.    He was a wanna bee....

 Again I m probably going to upset a few or maybe  just one of you.    I read things that just dont make sense at  times and I wonder.

 In addition:  if an aircraft company is having  problems and not selling the product they offer, yet Zenith is very successful,  you might join a group like Zenith Matronics and start bullshit rumors and keep  bringing up how dangerous the wings are etc......over and over  again....

 Sure we are all interested in having safe aircraft  but the same people keep bring up the dangerous problems the Zenith 601XL  has.

 Are you really interested or are you an undercover  competitor trying to stir up more B.S.

  

  [quote][b]

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: True Idenity

The bellcrank bushing is too tight to slide in so there is no slop. Is this normal? Do you have to ream out the factory part at all?

Ernie



On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Terry Turnquist <ter_turn(at)yahoo.com (ter_turn(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]The aileron bellcrank bushing should slide in smoothly without slop and allow the bellcrank to rotate freely around it. The bushing is held in place by the throughbolt because it's slightly longer than the thickness of the bellcrank.

 

Terry



ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com (ernieth(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Steve,



You have a good point.



On a building note, how hard is it to get the bushing 6W10-5 into the aileron bellcrank? Do I need a press or

freeze it and tap it in?

Do not Archive.

 



 On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:03 PM, steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net (notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		           I got blasted by one of this sites members about  four months ago.   I mentioned to the group that sometimes people are  not who the claim to be.    Years ago I belonged to the AvidFlyer  web group and this one member who called himself "Wang Chung" was always giving  out his suggestions on how to build and fly Avids.   Then Wang showed  up on the Jabiru site telling everyone his suggestions on the care and feeding  of the 2200 Jabby.

  Then off he went to the KitFox website.    

 Anyway, we members communicated from one site to  each other site because of common interests and similar aircraft.

  To shorten this up I ll tell you that Wang was  busted. We knew he was full of bad advice and didnt have a  clue.... Wang was not a pilot.  Was not an aircraft owner and had   absolutely no experience.    He was a wanna bee....

 Again I m probably going to upset a few or maybe  just one of you.    I read things that just dont make sense at  times and I wonder.

  In addition:  if an aircraft company is having  problems and not selling the product they offer, yet Zenith is very successful,  you might join a group like Zenith Matronics and start bullshit rumors and keep  bringing up how dangerous the wings are etc......over and over  again....

  

Sure we are all interested in having safe aircraft  but the same people keep bring up the dangerous problems the Zenith 601XL  has.

 Are you really interested or are you an undercover  competitor trying to stir up more B.S.

   

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	


	
[b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: True Idenity

Terry

  

 Mine is a Quick build kit and the bushing was  installed when I received it from Zenith.  Sorry I cant help you on  this..

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: True Idenity

I for one have said it before, if my wife EVER read any of this "GLOOM AND DOOM" about aircraft failures, she would NEVER set foot in my Zodiac and she would HOUND ME until the ends of the Earth to STOP BUILDING THIS DEATH TRAP......I was HOPING we could change the subject matter also, but it seems "we" feel the NEED to beat it to death (literally) some more.......I too am very well aware of the risks involved and I promise I will do my level best to build my aircraft according to the print.  I will fly it as I safely know how to do and I will NOT do any erratic maneuvers with it.  I'm positive everyone on this forum are going to be doing the same.  Now with all that being said, I will ask again....can we change the subject matter and get on to something more enlightening and helpful, PLEASE?????

   

  Thank you!

   

  Larry Hursh

  Edwardsburg, Mi  (N601LL Reserved)

  CH 601  XL



Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard 



On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:03 PM, steve 

wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sure we are all interested in having safe aircraft but the same people

 keep bring up the dangerous problems the Zenith 601XL has.

 Are you really interested or are you an undercover competitor trying to

 stir up more B.S.


	


I can't speak to anyone else, but I'm definitely me, and easy to find: my

address is posted on my home page, and you can look up the reserved N-number

or the ham callsign and get the same data.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC    [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: True Idenity

Some of us did..................................

---

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: Re: True Idenity

 	  skyridersbn wrote: 	
		  if my wife EVER read any of this "GLOOM AND DOOM" about aircraft failures, she would NEVER 	




Oh, man, don't even get me started on this one.   



I'm the guy who's neighbors came over to talk to my wife about my airplane project while I was away at Oshkosh last year.  Turns out that one of the guys in the N105RH crash (Oakdale, CA) was the best man at my neighbor's wedding, so of course they have an opinion regarding the XL that is set in stone. 



But I'm happy to say I'm still chugging away on my project.  Over 400 hours into it....  



Patrick

XL/Corvair

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: True Idenity

Not to worry.  Like most things, it's probably  a right wing

 conspiracy.  

  

 Joe N101HD

 [quote]   ---

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: True Idenity

Because we are on the subject of "True Identity", I had this one gentleman directly email me, questioning me about "which side of the fence I was on".  Here is what he said to me about my posting and about what I had said.  He quoted my statement and then asked me where I stood at on my statements.  He wrote:

   

  Hi Larry,

   

  Didn't you write:

   

  I for one have said it before, if my wife EVER read any of this "GLOOM AND DOOM"

about aircraft failures, she would NEVER set foot in my Zodiac and she would

HOUND ME until the ends of the Earth to STOP BUILDING THIS DEATH TRAP......I

was HOPING we could change the subject matter also, but it seems "we" feel the

NEED to beat it to death (literally) some more.......I too am  very well aware

of the risks involved and I promise I will do my level best to build my aircraft

according to the print.  I will fly it as I safely know how to do and I will

NOT do any erratic maneuvers with it.  I'm positive everyone on this forumhttp://www.lpaero.com/

are going to be doing the same.  Now with all that being said, I will ask again....can

we change the subject matter and get on to something more enlightening

and helpful, PLEASE?????

   

...now you ask:

   

  My obvious question would be, what is the windshield made out of on the Zenith

Aircraft's CH601XL??  Is there such a thing as an "upgrade" we can buy to get

the very best protection for the money we've spent (or spending in my case - I'm

working on the tail section now)??? If not, WHY not??



  Don't you realize that comments like this lead to what you profess to abhor?  What side of the fence ya gonna sit on?    

  cheers jeff     you could contact the makers of the canopy and find out   http://www.lpaero.com/

  

  I had responded to his questions with my answers and I said this back to him:

   

  I am not on both sides of the fence when it comes to a bird strike.  That is extremely EVIDENT and not speculation.  A fact - a bird CAN and sometimes DO break windshields.  The evidence is extremely clear about it if you was to watch the video, see the broken windshield and the  carcass of the bird in the back seat.  To SPECULATE what happened to the 601 that they say the wings collapsed, when the NTSB hasn't been able to piece all the FACTS together, is purely speculation on our parts.  I would rather sit back, open my ears, shut my mouth and take a "wait and see" attitude, about how this whole accident plays out with the cause.  To ASSUME otherwise, is as I said before, PURELY SPECULATION and can (and usually does) cause totally UNNECESSARY ALARM, FEAR AND PANIC!!  Deal in only the facts - when you know what they are, THEN make a logical, educated decision as to how to proceed.   I firmly believe that Zenith is on top of all these issues.  If I didn't have faith in the aircraft, I would NOT be building it.   

   

  Now, let me ask you, have I my made my point perfectly clear here or not?  (If not, I'll slow down some for you and let you catch  up.......OK?)

   

  As far as what the current material the windshield is made of on the Zodiac, I have to admit I do not know.  Up until this bird coming through the windshield on the Cessna, it never raised my concerns.  I am like everyone else, I ASSUME Zenith is providing the best material (all materials) to keep us as safe as possible.  Do I assume to much here?  Maybe.  After physically SEEING the evidence of what this bird did to a Cessna, DOES cause me to question it.  I DO know how thick the Cessna windshield is and I AM concerned that the windshield in the Zodiac WILL or WILL NOT withstand a bird strike like this.  I live by many, many lakes here and we have an over abundance of Canadian Geese it seems.  As you know, they are NOT a small bird.  I HAVE been in a bird strike in a Cessna 172 once.  We hit TWO geese.  One struck the propeller (thank God for  small favors) and it splattered all over the windshield and leading edges of both wings, making it extremely hard to see.  The other goose, hit the left leading edge of the wing, taking out a full bay between two ribs (4 foot from the pilot's door).  Luckily, the metal gave enough to dent but not break away.  We was able to return to the airport and put the plane down without incident.   It took close to 2 months for the plane to be returned to service again.  Its not something I would ever want to go through again.

   

   

  Larry Hursh 



  PS - Are you "Thomas Small" or "cheers jeff"?  You seemed to be so confused, you can't remember WHO you are...!  Ha, talk about the pot calling the kettle black, eh??  Have a really PEACHY DAY, will yah - whomever you are!?

   

  His response back to me was this:

   

   Well, excuse me!  I am truly, truly sorry not to understand that your sense of entitlement allows you to have more than one correct opinion.  "Oh, stop the DOOM and GLOOM...if not, WHY not!"  

   

  Thank goodness for block sender.

   

  Thomas Jeffrey Small

  ***************************************

  I Must Apologize to All of You.....

   

  I'm sorry if this is boring everyone to tears but I for one am DAMNED TIRED of having people making accusations like this one, yet wanting to attack without using one sense of common decency to LISTEN to the  answer that is given to them.  If you ever ask me my opinion, I will try to explain my actions as best I can but for God's sake, try to understand it.  It makes my ass TIRED of trying to speak intelligently with a moronic person such as this one.  I honestly feel his whole agenda was to try to disrupt and abuse this forum.  I'm not sure if anyone else has received this sort of statements coming from Mr Thomas Jeffrey Small or not.  I for one will NOT say a word to anyone personally, that will not make on an open forum such as this one.  I'm sorry for taking up this (more like wasted) space to justify my actions, but I feel for the betterment of all on this forum, this hooligan needs to be identified for his disruptive demeanor and unintelligent conversations.......I promise to try to NEVER post anything like this ever again.

   

  Best Regards to all!!  Happy building and  flying!

   

  Larry Hursh

  Edwardsburg, MI   (N601LL Reserved)

  CH601XL building elevator now...





  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: True Idenity

Great Letter.....    Joe  N101HD

 [quote]   ---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: True Idenity

Now you all understand why I titled this "True  Identity".....

 As I originally typed,  I ve seen these people  on other websites and its obvious they are in a different ball  game...

  

 SW

 [quote]   ---

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