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Doug.Gee(at)firestone-tex
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: New Builder - Tools

I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful in trying to comprehend the scope of this project.  Despite all that, I'm ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb questions and thank you for your patience and help.  Now for the first set of dumb questions - I need tools.



I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit?  A friend recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet gun in the kit?  I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one?  I have seen posts recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one?  Do I need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic?  What yokes should I buy?  If I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller?  What are "no hole" yokes for? I saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another - are the Avery clecos good?  Are tungsten bucking bars recommended?  Avery set?  Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one?  I see some recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I need?  Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one?  What size(s) safety wire are needed?  Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from Avery or Vans?  Are there any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?



Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!

millstees(at)ameritech.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Doug:



Welcome Aboard!



I am only going to answer a few of your questions, and will leave the others

for the more qualified.



Rivet Gun...get a 3X, but don't spend the money on the Sioux gun, just get

the standard gun...its fine.  Spend your Sioux money on the hand drill.

That's where you see the big difference in value.  The Sioux is much

smoother, and after the 15000th rivet, you will appreciate it.



I did not use a pneumatic squeezer.  I got the Main Squeeze from Cleveland

Tools, and like it very much, and built an RV-10 with it no problem.  Others

like the Pneumatic...YMMV



Torque wrench...you will need one that measures in inch lbs.  I got mune at

Sears for about $60 and it was fine.



You will need Oops rivets...yes get the set from Avery.



Should have:



Band saw

Die grinder (pnuematic)

Bench grinder

12" offset back riveter



Good luck



Steve Mills N750SM (reserved)

RV-10 40486 Slow-build  Eggenfellner E-6TI

Naperville, Illinois 

Finishing kit, engine install

Do Not Archive

--

rwshooter(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Hey Doug.....I was in the same boat as you on tolls until 

today.............Talk to Isham at planetools.....I got all the goodies at a 

great price!.....Robb

---

Andy Turner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Clarion, PA

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: New Builder - Tools

Hi Doug,

  Welcome to the party. I'm driving the last rivets on the tailcone, began the empennage in November. It has been a lot of fun for me, I expect you will enjoy it too.

  As for the tools, I haven't regretted any of the tools I have purchased, only the ones I did not. The job is challenging enough, having the right tool results in higher quality work. I purchased a complete kit (Plane-Tools) before I began, but I've added to that kit with nearly weekly orders to the tool companies. And, believe it or not, I am a minimalist by nature. In fact, I began the project with only hand squeezers, viewing a pneumatic squeezer as a luxury I could live without. The first spar on the vertical stabilizer changed my mind on that idea. I quickly learned that good tools would make higher quality results possible. Nothing will make you feel better than good quality work, and nothing will make you feel worse than a botched job.

  Looking down your list of questions, I've asked all of them myself, and for me the answer was a uniform yes - I've purchased all of the tools you mention, though not necessary from Avery - I shopped for the best price.   And, I don't regret purchasing a single one of them. Most I consider essential.

  A couple of specifics - I have three hand squeezers, along with the pneumatic, don't regret having them a bit (well, OK, perhaps two hand squeezers would have been adequate, changing yokes isn't that much work!). Lots of different yokes are really useful though - different yokes work well in different situations, the more the better. You will need the no hole yoke for situations in which access to one side if the rivet is tight - the rivet is set against the yoke tip itself, not a set. My tungsten bar is one of my favorite tools. My #30 and 40 reamers are other favorites. You won't need the safety wire twister and wire till later in the project, but buy a couple of twisters (large and small) and a variety of wire sizes - you will use them all. I really like my DRDT-2 dimpler. As for the torque wrench, that is my next purchase, as my 3/8 drive torque wrench is too heavy - remember that many of the fasteners are light - I would like to find a torque wrench that will register down to 18 in-lbs or so. 



Best of luck with the great adventure, -Andy

_________________
Andy Turner

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: New Builder - Tools

I will also give you a couple of opinions.....



I got the Cleveland tool kit, worked great for me, bought a lot of extra

clecos......you can never have too many.  I also recommend that you get some

black cleco's, #19.  I think you only need about 10.



Band saw and grinder are a must.

Scotchbrite wheel for grinder



Drill press comes in handy, but not sure it is a must.



Box of scotchbrite pads, I like the maroon one's, I think they are 320



Just some quick ideas off the top of my head.



Rene'

N423CF (Flying)

801-721-6080

--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: New Builder - Tools

I'll tell you what I did, took much time and in the end saved a whole lot 

over the "package deals"

http://rv10builder.net/tools.aspx describes the tools and the Van's list I 

got from Brown Tools. I also bought  lots of stuff from e-bay and the , now 

defunct, Boeing store. I was fortunate, I got good tools and never 

experienced any problems with any of the Vendors and e-bay.

If you dont care to shop around, go with a packaged deal, I think Avery 

sells way more things than one needs, Home depot has a long piece of steel 

for significantly less than the one sold as the "Horizontal bucking bar" 

also you'll find that various sizes of scrap steel work equally as well as 

bucking bar. do get Sioux drills, I have a 2x riveter and it works just 

fine, I got my pneumatic squeezer from Brown with a 2.5 and 3, but no 4in, 

and never regretted that decision, Brown has clecoes that have worked 

flawlessly for me, and in general you can't go wrong with The Yard store or 

Brown tools in my experience

I did the tools cheaply, I got the best I could and took months to build it 

all up "on sales"..



I have found more is certainly not a bad thing if you have the money to 

spend, I have used half of what many say is needed and it has been fine.



As far as the reamer... I have a few, bought from Boeing and they have been 

nice, but certainly not a necessity, but I use them for every final drilled 

hole, if I didn't it would be fine, the plane would still last a lifetime.



Lastly, get a pneunatic squeezer, you wont regret that decision.



Best of success on this new and exciting endeavour, look forward to hearing 

your progress.



Pascal





---

coop85(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Doug,

   In addition to all of the other tools mentions, I'd HIGHLY recommend a

pneumatic pop rivet gun from Harbor Freight.  Mostly useful when you start

on the fuselage floors so watch for the frequent times it's available for

$29.  Best cheap tool you'll ever get and it's a lifesaver.  Same tool is

available on e-bay and other stores but I've never seen it as cheap as

Harbor Frieght.



Marcus



--

rv(at)thelefflers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

I agree with Rene's comments.  I purchased the Avery kit myself, but

substituted quite a few items.



I didn't get a hand squeezer, but did get a pneumatic from Avery w/ 3",

longeron, and 4" no hole.  I've been told that there will be times I need a

hand squeezer, but I haven't run across that time yet.  I figured I could

always buy the hand squeezer later.  The no hole allows you to get into

places in which you can't if you had a standard die installed.  I consider

these three the minimum types of yokes you'll need.  There have been times

that I could have used another yoke, but I ended up setting those rivets

using a gun.



On recommendation from an A&P friend, I purchased the squeezer and dimple

dies from Cleaveland.  He was of the opinion that they were better than

Avery's.  I can't substantiate that claim, since I haven't used Avery's.



I have purchased about 100 more #40 silver #40 clecos above what Avery

recommended for the RV-10.  Working on the empennage, it seemed that I never

had enough.



I did upgrade the rivet gun to a Sioux 3x.   I had a chance to play with the

Avery gun beforehand. The Avery gun works just fine, but the Sioux gun has

much better trigger control.



I also got a Chicago Pneumatic drill from Brown. Again, I liked how the

drill performed better and had a chance to play with both drills prior to

ordering.



I've had mixed results with both Cleaveland and Avery edge flanging tool.

I've had more success with recently with Cleaveland's.



I did purchase an Avery pistol grip pneumatic pistol grip cleco gun.

Definitely not a requirement, but clearly made inserting and removing large

amounts of cleco's much easier.



Yes, you'll need a torque wrench.  I got the nice electronic version

(CDI/Snap-On) from Cleaveland.  I have had problems with the clicker

versions before, which is clearly a personal issue for me and you may not

experience the same.  It's nice to hear the buzzer, especially when you

can't see the wrench.



Also, get a tungsten bucking bar.  I use this bar 99.9% of the same.  It's

smaller, heavier, and much easier to use.



I also got a DRDT-2 instead of a C-Frame.  It's quite a bit easier to use

and much quieter.  My wife and daughter have used it and probably wouldn't

have touched a c-frame.  That alone is enough to justify the upgrade to me.



I highly recommend the quick disconnect kit for the drill from Cleaveland.

I did most of the empennage before I got this.  I got tired of constantly

changing drill bits.  Now I can change bits in a couple seconds.



Reamers will yield a much cleaner hole that a drill bit.  I use a reamer

whenever I can.   I have #30, #40, and #41.



I got my safety wire twisters from Harbor Freight.  I don't think there is

much difference here.  I wouldn't get the torque wrench from HF.



Yes, you will most likely need oops rivets.  None of us are perfect.  Rick

Sked sent me some when I started my project.  I will play it forward and

send you some if you email my offline.



With all this said, the plain Avery and Cleaveland tool kits will work just

fine.   As you can see, I've made many upgrades that do cost more.  They've

made my life easier by either reducing work effort or by providing me

greater control of the tool.  This is going to be a highly personal

decision.   To me, there was enough value added, that I was willing to spend

the extra dollars.



Enough ramblings for today.  If you have an specific questions about the

upgrades, please contact me offline.



Bob



Do not archive



--

roadmaps

Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 49

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Bob,



Excellent write up on tool choices - useful to the newcomer.



My partner and I are on our second RV10 and have never needed a hand

squeezer (love the pneumatic). We also found the Harbor Freight Pop Riveter

($35) to be invaluable - especially for the floor pans.



I think your comments should be archived for 1st timers.



John Testement

jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com

40321

Richmond, VA

Painting

 



--

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

As the others have said, I would talk to PlaneTools, Cleavland, or Brown.  All three of them are experienced and very reasonable and I have bought tools from all of them.



  I got all my initial stuff from Avery and found several items that you will never touch in his kits and at least one tool that breaks often.  It's the V shaped edge debur tool that is brazed on and made by a relative or something.  Long story short but he replaced the broken tool, twice, but said it was my fault, continually claimed I dropped it, and was rather rude about it.  Both times the end popped right off as I was using it.  His stuff is fine but I'm not keen on being called a liar and customer service is more important to me than a couple bucks. YMMV



Michael



--

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Mike Crow, one of the my instructors at Alexander Technical Center 

posted this on the  RV List back in 2004 so some of the specific info on 

model numbers may be out of date and Avery and Cleaveland may have 

changed there offerings, but IMHO it is great information.  If you are 

considering purchasing your tools in Kit form, IMHO this is great 

advice. Below is what Mike wrote.  It is not an exact quote and I will 

add some of my comments in ().



To introduce myself first I am an A&P mechanic with an IA. I work as a 

Lead Mechanic for a major air line. For the past two years I have worked 

part time at the Alexander Technical Center at Griffin GA. as an 

instructor on their quick start tail assembly program. 

http://www.buildtofly.com/.  (taking some sort of training class IMHO is 

invaluable, even if it only a weekend sheet metal class)



I have been involved in over 100 tail kits. I have worked on the 6,7,8,9 

and 10 kits; I am also building a RV8A myself.



As each class begins I ask if the student have already purchased their 

tools. My hopes are that they have not as we have a good selection of 

tools to try from the different manufacturers. The ones that have gotten 

their tools before coming often say I wish I had gotten this tool or 

that tool instead. In the following I will try to give you a list and 

suggestions of tools that I have learned over the past two years. Please 

keep in mind that this information is my opinion and mine alone. Others 

may agree or disagree.



There are two major suppliers of tools for the RV tail kits that I 

recommend   Avery  and Cleaveland  both are RV builders and are good and 

honest people to do business with.



I would buy a tool kit from Avery or Cleaveland to begin with. Both will 

allow you to add or subtract the tools you want to the kit. I will use 

both their 2004 catalogs as a guide. (The information is updated for 

Cleaveland's 2005 catalog)



First if you buy Cleaveland's kit I would buy their complete airframe 

tool package p/n Comp-Kit 05.



I would subtract from the kit:



BBRP-48 Back Riveting Plate-It is a nice plate but too small in my 

opinion. (Cleaveland must be listening they now have an optional 4"x16" 

back riveting plate. Get the bigger plate)



CF-80 C-Frame Riveting Tool-More about C-Frames later but if you get 

this one also order their C-From Table Kit CTF-48



ASRD-14 Air Swivel Regulator- has been changed it now has a click type 

knob.  This is the type regulator you will want.



I would add to the kit:



I would suggest the 3X Rivet gun- The 2x works good on the 3/32 rivet 

but not well on the 1/8 rivet. Get a 3x to work well on the 1/8 and turn 

down the pressure a little to do the 3/32 or better yet buy one of 

each.  The 3X is standard in the kit.



DP-8 Drive Pin Punches- This is a nice punch set you could get by with 

only the 3/32 and 1/8 which come in the kit. (you will be removing a few 

bad rivets)



LBL-13 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.

3MW-77S6 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you 

need both. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install 

these wheels.



3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty.  The kit now has 5 pads.



DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the 

screws for the lead weights



SNYT-405 4in THIN NOSE YOKE- You are going to need a thin nose and a 4in 

nose get them both in one.



SNYF-251 2.5in FLANGE NOSE YOKE- There is places where nothing else is 

going to reach.



RSMS-75 SWIVEL FLUSH SET WITH RUBBER GUARD-You must cut some of the 

rubber down or you rivets will set too high



CLP-20 CLEKO PLIERS-One is not enough.



CLC-50 1/2in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.



CLC-100 1in CLEKO CLAMP-You get 4. You need at least 10.



CC120-30 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a lot of CS4-4 on 

the floor boards of the fuselage they are 120 degrees.

For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to 

back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.

The RV10 will also need BBRV10 SPECIAL BUCKING BAR-You will need this 

for the elevators.

I would buy from Avery to complete the kit from Cleaveland 575 hand 

seamer 3-1/2 jaw-I use this to squeezing the trailing edge of the

trim tabs.

550 3/32 vise grip dimplers- several places on ribs this is needed.



1046 SPEED DEBURRING AND COUNTERSINKING TOOL

     

23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for 

aligning skins (Harbor Freight)



If you buy an Avery tool kit, I would buy the RV-3,-4-6-7-8-9and -10 

builders tool kit.



I would subtract from the kit



1001 22in hand rivet and dimpling tool-it is there c-frame tool a good 

tool but see below about a c-frame tool



10765 POLYETHYLENE DIMPLING MALLET-Goes with the c-frame tool. If you 

get the c-frame tool get the mallet. (Harbor Freight)



500 FLUTING PLIERS- You need a pair of fluting pliers I like 

Cleaveland's a lot better.



1042 EDGE ROLLING TOOL- I can not get this tool to work for me. It could 

just be me.



3507 3M RIVETING TAPE-Works well. If you use it take it off after use it 

is real hard to get off later. Use Scotch Removable Magic Tape works as 

well and much cheaper.



9885 ANGLE DRILL KIT- Nice kit not needed for the tail kit could be used 

later. (ebay)



1054 NBR 8 SCREW COUNTERSINK CUTTER-Not needed for the tail kit.



25500 SWIVEL HEAD POP RIVET TOOL-If you must use a hand pop tool use 

Cleaveland's PRS-20 it is much easier to squeeze.



I would add to the kit:

         

7760 4in NO HOLE YOKE



7755 LONGERON YOKE



811 RIVETING TAPE-Scotch removable magic tape.



1003 BOELUBE Do not drill lead without it.



200 CLECO PLIERS-One is not enough.



1661 Light deburring wheel- You get a rougher one in the kit you need 

both.  Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a grinder and install these 

wheels.



23904 4 PC. HOOK AND PICK SET-You will need a pick many times for 

aligning skins.



For the RV9 42120 SPECIAL 120 DEGREE COUNTERSINK-Used where you use 

CS4-4 rivets on the elevators.



For the RV10 630 RV10 ELEVATOR BUCKING BAR



I would by from Cleaveland to complete the Avery kit:.

                   

3MP-47 Scotch-Brite pads-you will need plenty



DIE509-10 #10 SCREW DIMPLE DIES-You will need these to dimple for the 

screws for the lead weights



EF-60 EDGE FORMER-Needed at seams



HS-30 OFFSET HAND SEAMER-Used many places



FP-200 FLUTING PLIERS-Used to straighten ribs



For the RV9 DIECS4-4 120 DEGREE DIES FOR 1/8 POP RIVETS-You use a lot of 

CS4-4 on the skin of your elevators they are 120 degrees.



For our RV10 friends RSB-12 12in back rivet set-You will need this to 

back rivet the stiffeners on the elevators.



Tools that would be nice to have:

                       

PNEUMATIC SQUEEZER- In my opinion a must have. Get a 214 style. Make 

sure to get an adjustable set holder for it.



PNEUMATIC POP RIVET GUN-Go to harbor freight or such and get one for 

around $40.00

LIGHTWEIGHT HOSE KITS-Makes it a lot easier to handle drills and rivet guns

TATCO HAND SQUEEZER WITH 2in YOKE-Makes it a lot easier to dimple all 

those ribs  (Not necessary, I like Avery's squeezer)           

C-FRAME DIMPLER

EXPERIMENTAL AERO

I brought a DRDT dimplier and installed it at Alexander Technical Center 

to try it out in January this year.

                                     

Boy was that a mistake. There is no way I am getting it back. It is the 

best I have used for dimpling. It gives best dimples; it is consistent, 

quiet and a one man operation.

                                     

There is no way I am going back to the old c-frame hammer method. Now if 

I need to dimple I pack up what I have and drive 32 miles even though I 

have a hammer c-Frame dimplier at home. It is that much better. They now 

sell the DRDT-2 which has some improvement over the -1.

Mike Crowe

Doug Gee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have been following this list for the past year and have spent many hours reviewing the many websites referenced from Tim's site - very very helpful in trying to comprehend the scope of this project.  Despite all that, I'm ordering a tail kit and would like to apologize in advance for all the dumb questions and thank you for your patience and help.  Now for the first set of dumb questions - I need tools.



 I see that Avery sell a 650 piece RV Builders Tool Kit with a recommended increase in clecos and a special bucking bar - is this a good kit?  A friend recommended the Sioux brand so I was going to sub this brand for the rivet gun in the kit?  I have a choice of 2x or 3x - which one?  I have seen posts recommending a pneumatic squeezer - is the avery 7530kit a good one?  Do I need the hand squeezer if I get the pneumatic?  What yokes should I buy?  If I buy a 4" yoke, why would I need smaller?  What are "no hole" yokes for? I saw a post regarding a brand of clecos that didn't hold as well as another - are the Avery clecos good?  Are tungsten bucking bars recommended?  Avery set?  Do I need a torque wrench - if so, which one?  I see some recommendations to ream the holes before riveting - if so, what sizes do I need?  Safety wire twisters - is there a recommended one?  What size(s) safety wire are needed?  Avery has a Oops rivet kit - do I buy them from Avery or Vans?  Are the!

  re any other "should have" tools that will make life easier?



 Really looking forward to starting this new adventure!

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Yikes!  My mileage has varied greatly!  



Not saying that this didn't happen to Michael, but Avery is where I start

when thinking about buying another tool.  It is also where I bought my

original set.  Bob has provided nothing but the best service for me over the

years.  Once taking back my stale pneumatic squeezer (not used at all in two

years) and rebuilt it for free after it didn't perform correctly.  When I

complained about a rivet set (wasn't the rivet set's fault, rather my

technique), he sent out another for free, including shipping.  He's always

been there for questions.  The family's been under some great stress

recently, but doubt that that should make a difference.  Just real good

people.  I'd not pass them by.  As I would not Cleveland, the only other one

I've had direct experience with.  They have been excellent as well.  



What you want is a company that has people who are willing to talk about the

issues that you are encountering during the build, whether it be the quality

or durability of a tool, how to use the tool, or an approach to a problem,

and I've found both companies are very willing and able to do so.     



As Michael said, YMMV.  



John Jessen



--

airplanedriver(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

I have to put in a good word for Bob Avery here.  I've been buying

tools from Avery and others for ten years.  I have found Bob to be the

most professional, courteous, and friendly.  He will bend over

backwards to make good on his sales.  I find his customer service and

tool quality so good, that I use Avery tools almost exclusively for

all my tool needs.



Chase Snodgrass

Presidio, TX

http://flybigbend.com

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Like I said though, nothing wrong with his stuff and he did replace it every time.  Far more people have had positive experiences with him than negative but no one is perfect.  This was back in 2006.  Who knows, might have caught him on a bad day.  If it wasn't a face to face conversation I might have had a different impression of it.  Just a datapoint.



Michael



--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

get the extended warranty however, mine broke after 150 pop rivets.

Pascal

---

rv(at)thelefflers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

They must be spiffed on the warranty sales.  Recently every time I buy something from HF, the one gal discounts the unit by the cost of the warranty extension. 

[quote] 

 From: "Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net>

 Date: 2008/03/21 Fri AM 10:27:23 EST

 To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: New Builder - Tools

 get the extended warranty however, mine broke after 150 pop rivets.

 Pascal

 ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

As another(A&P with IA and EAA TC) plus sometimes professional mechanic

for the nation's top regional airline last year and an all too sometime

RV builder, I second whole heartedly endorse Mike Crow's observation

from ATC as posted by Larry Rosen. My tool selection for the RV-10 is

far more vast than even the tools commonly used at work.  Both have

their advantages.  Often builders are quick to write an early check and

make the quick selection process simplified.  Make your own list and

check it twice.



I have found the use of pneumatic tools indispensible. Larry won me over

with his Hardhat graphic on his website with a Pneumatic Jackhammer

operator.  I would seldom resort to an electric powered hand tool -

since.  I formerly and repetitively visited the late Boeing Surplus

store in Renton, WA which is now only a fond memory.  Ebay is amazing

when you make a comprehensive list. Tungsten Bucking bars are the most

valued and borrowed tools I possess. Get some practical experience and

ask other builders their input.  Knowledge of item A vs. item B. often

provides products which simplify the build and become a valued asset.  I

personally have two Sioux reversible drills which I love.



I have the utmost respect for those of you who continue to use a

mechanical hand squeezer or hand dimpler rather than the C214 style or

DRDT-2 dimpler (which has plans available).  Randy Debauw, builder of

the first completed RV-10, enlightened me to the advantage of two or

three used drills (Pre-chucked with the correct bit size for time

efficiency). If you scan his file on Tim's site you may get a glimpse of

the end of his workbench and down under the countertop a foot where more

than a dozen such gems resided until needed.  Several squeezers (Preset)

makes the assembly a true pleasure.  One vise mounted and the other free

to roam in your hand.  I have been surprised that more of you aren't

willing to part with such tools after the build is complete.  There is a

lesson in there somewhere.



Doug - Take the time to understand the process and the tools.  Seek

multiple opinions.  You're going to love this group of friendly builders

with a common goal and passion.



John Cox

--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

In all fairness, I should be more specific with the one I had 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93458 there 

are a couple others and I don't know if they work any better than the one I 

had.



Pascal



---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: New Builder - Tools

Boy, Doug, you really hit a resonant chord with RV10 builders!

In no particular order, here are a few preferences - opinion only:

Ebay is a great source when you know what you want.

We've had good luck with Cleaveland tools, but are tending to buy cheap stuff (like Clecos) from the Yard (good folks, but inexpensive so caveat emptor), and other stuff (especially drill bits) from Avery. Their customer support is superb and quality is high. Harbor Freight has some good deals among the rest of their stuff. We have three of their die grinders at an average price of less than $10 on sale, and they continue to work very well. Probably at least one is necessary. Carbide bits cost more  (each!) than the die grinders; cutoff wheels like those in Van's kit are cheap and last pretty well. Get a few extras. Necessary for cutting plexiglas and fiberglass.

One of the most used tools is a grinder/polisher fitted with coarse and fine Scotchbrite wheels.  A movable stand al la Tony Binegelis' book "The Sportplane Builder" but smaller and with just this one tool on it  with and lots of clearance around the wheels would really  be well worth the effort. Select a polisher with lots of clearance around the wheels (no guards, long shaft). Did I says lots of clearance around the wheels?  Check Harbor freight for this item; ensure that the diameters of shaft and wheels match. 

Consider buying several pneumatic drills, as small  and as fast-turning as possible. By accident, we wound up with two Chicago Pneumatics (Ebay); we would like to have three. Get one of the new Li-ion powered 1/2" drills for bigger holes. They are really a lot better than the rechargeable electrics of few years ago. Our new Makita is compact, powerful and relatively cheap (Home Depot).  "Next time"  (Ha!) we would try using reamers instead of drills for most of the match drilling work to get a cleaner hole, but drills work fine with adequate deburring. Get a set of Good cobalt drill bits in both number and fractional sizes - you won't regret it. Cheap (rapidly dulled) bits are a real pain mostly when drilling steel, especially stainless steel (firewall). Then get a half dozen or so (buy more as needed) #40 and #30 bits, and a "few"  #27, 21, 19, 12, and 3/16" bits. You will really like having extra long bits in #30, 40, and 12, and the medium long ones in #30 and 40.

Get awls (2) for aligning holes.

Angle drill. Ouch! expensive and require skill to operate but, unfortunately,  necessary. Try Steinair. Get pretty much the same drills as above, but fewer of them and in more lengths. Stubby bits are essential, but the longest bit that will fit gives you the best directional accuracy.  Don't do like we did and buy surplus from Ebay unless you really know what you're doing.

You can never have too many clecos, especially silver 3/32" size, but also 1/8" copper ones. Get a dozen or so in the black and gold sizes, too. Also get the cleco clamps - a dozen each would be about right. The longer ones tend to be more useful, so i you're really on a tight budget get just the longer ones. Maybe you can borrow clecos, but I think that's a bad idea. Two cleco pliers are really handy, especially when you have help/instruction -and you will!

You will need a variety of other clamps, especially small C-clamps. Get (Ebay) a dozen or so of the good ones  that have a plastic pad on one jaw. You will need long-reach clamps, and, for gluing the doors, some big spring clamps or similar. DON'T skimp here! (Ask me how I know...) You will find you don't have the right clamp a lot of the time - mostly because the reach is too short. Bite the bullet and buy what you need locally. It's much cheaper in the long run.

3X rivet gun of good quality. I'm happy with my ancient Chicago Pneumatic. Don't go undersized - it's a pain! Bite the bullet and buy the different sizes and shapes and lengths of sets, including a back rivet set. Do not buy the back rivet plates the vendors sell. They're too small. Get a 1/4" steel plate. Mine was a gift from Deems Davis, and is about 11" X 17". It's especially nice for riveting the tail cone with the Clecoes inserted from the inside of the cone. Don't get the swiveling flush rivet set - the solid unit gives much better control. (Ask me how I know...)

Get a good pop riveter and a cheap one. Aggressively grind the cheap one down to get into tight places. We never used the pneumatic (Harbor Freight) pop riveter we bought - not worth the effort to set up and learn.

IMHO, you will be well served with  the smallest rivet squeezer available to get into tight spots, and a generous set of yokes including a must-have longeron yoke and a 3" thin-nose yoke. Get the smallest yoke available, too.  A pneumatic squeezer is exceptionally handy for both dimpling and squeezing. Avery's pneumatic and manual squeezers take the same yokes, as do others', I believe.

<blatant commercial message>

Marlys and I  have a DRDT-2 dimpler that we  really love.  We don't have a C-frame and have not missed it. This particular DRDT-2 was featured in the October 2006 issue of Kitplanes. We're all done dimpling large sheet metal pieces now, though, so it's for sale. I'll post about it if that's allowed.

<end commercial message>

If you want a new DRDT-2, Paul Merems of Experimental Aero 12351 E. Lou Bock Pl. Tucson, AZ 85749 stands out among a very good set of vendors for his helpfulness and the quality of his stuff.

Bucking bars - the commercial ones all tend to be too light. You will probably have to make at least some of them. The heaviest bar that will fit is best. Avery #620 gets a lot of use as does the Yard's  #15053. Tungsten bars are scandalously expensive. Were I to start over, I'd buy them in a heartbeat.

Compressor - If you have 220V available or can get it, buy an oil bath unit made for 220 only. They're more powerful and no more expensive than the biggest 120V units. Buy the good rubber hoses if you can.

Drill press - Don't go home without one! It's nice to have a crank height adjustment, but our old used commercial unit serves loyally with out it.

Band saw  - very handy. Expensive.

Table saw with carbide combination blade - exceptionally handy. Expensive. Dangerous!

Grinder (stone wheels, not Scotchbrite) - probably necessary, but cheap.

Sander with vertical wheel and horizontal belt - Very handy, not too expensive, but probably not necessary.

D/A grinder. Very useful for the coarse fiberglass work. 3M sanding boards are pricey as can be, but worth it. Local body shop supply was our source.

Pair of trammel points for layout. Cheap. Handy. Flexible. Best way to measure hole distances that need duplicating. 

Large and small draftsman's compasses set to good steel rules are really nice.

Rules of lengths 6" (several are handy, we love the little Starrett rules), 12"  and 18" (to fit combination square) and at least one long one  (3 or 4 feet) are very rice to have. For the longer ones, a good steel straightedge would be an acceptable substitute.Rules get pricey in a hurry. Ebay. 

Bubble levels can sometimes substitute for straightedges, and you will need at least one level.

A set of engineer's squares (cheap is OK - even the cheap ones are pretty good) gets a lot of use. Necessary. 

Cheap plastic drafting templates (various circle sizes) and squares are very useful and surprisingly accurate.

I guess I can't postpone working on door fit any more...

Enjoy!

John Ackerman 

40458 

in fiberglas purgatory





Do Not Archive

On Mar 20, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Doug Gee wrote:[quote] [quote][b]

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: New Builder - Tools

Doug,

I went with the Avery Kit recommended for the RV-10. No regrets. With hindsight, I could have saved by shopping around on certain items, but I didn't know I needed them until Avery put them in the kit.

I got the 2x gun and it works fine. As an option, Avery suggested a keyless chuck for the Sioux drill - I'm glad I got it. After squeezing a few rivets by hand, you will love a pneumatic one. Definitely get the Longeron Yoke, although "tall" squeezer heads are an alternative (look at Avery's Deluxe Set).

Stuff you won't find in the kits:

Clamps, clamps, clamps.

Grinder for the Scotchbrite wheel - do NOT use the stone wheels on aluminum.

A belt/disc sander - works great on aluminum.

My Craftsman table top drill press is a must - especially for countersinking those long pieces.

A band saw is not essential but I wish I had gotten something better than a Ryobi $99 special at Home Depot.

A good table mounted vise.

A Dremel kit is almost essential.

A pneumatic cleco gun is my favorite luxury.



Sorry for rambling,

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

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