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droop tips

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: droop tips

John H.- I see that you are back at your own computer. What happened on the testing of the droop tips? I saw some very spectacular stall and landing figures- quite low, for the size of the aircraft, and without VG's. How about low speed turns, crosswind handling, and T/O speeds? In your opinion, which did you like better? How were they attached? How much did they extend the wingspan?

   

                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                   FS/KX

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: droop tips

Morning Bill:

  

 What happened to droop tip test?  I completed  the test.

  

 Again, during the 40 hour flight test of the  MKIIIx, I saw no requirement for VG's.  The airplane was stalling at 30 mph  IAS at 3,000 feet ASL without VG's or droop tips, and 26 mph IAS with  them.

  

 The X turns well at low speeds as do all models of  Kolb aircraft.  The longer wing panel, 13 feet of full rib wing plus about  a foot of droop tip, produces a lot of lift.  As a comparison, the FSII  wing panel with two feet ofbow tip is 13 feet total.  The aircraft is a  floater.  The droop tips seemed to enhance the performance of the  ailerons.  I wanted to do some more experimenting with the location of the  aileron Morse cable attach points on the rear aileron bell crank, but ran out of  time.  Without droop tips I had flown the X with the cables moved inboard a  full inch at 1/2 inch increments.  At the inmost points the X felt like it  had hydraulic assist.  I could roll the X briskly at 80 mph.  However,  at 40 mph I was running out of lateral stick travel.  Did not have enough  time to relocate the cables and fly it with the droop tips.  May or may not  have had enough aileron authority.  When we get a chance, we'll do some  more testing on cable location.  Hopefully, I can get to London during  decent wind and weather conditions.

  

 I flew the entire test period with cross winds,  left and right, 5 to 15 mph most of the time.  At times, much higher.   When the winds got to "much higher", I took a nap.  Like all the Kolb  models I have flown, it does quite well in cross winds.

  

 I do not know what the take off speeds are.  I  let the airplane fly when it is ready, which is quite sudden.  I don't  recall what airspeed the aircraft broke in ground effect because I was usually  busy with the turbulence.  

  

 We did not have time to take measurements on  takeoff and landing distances.  If we did, the wind and turbulence would  have prevented us from getting any real figures.  If you have flown an  airplane at Labhart Field you will understand how busy the pilot gets trying to  land there in turbulence.  Just a guess, 40 mph IAS, remembering that the  more horse power one applies to a high mounted pusher configuration, the  longer it takes to get off the ground, in most cases.

  

 I landed at London and Williamsburg, KY, the  two paved airstrips in my test area.  The X was nice and solid.   Handled well on pavement.  I did get Travis to order me some heavy  compression tail wheel springs which worked 100% better than the soft springs  they have been sending out with the kits.  In the future, compression  springs will be included in kits for the MKIII.

  

 I like flying the X with the droop tips better for  obvious reasons.   It performs better.  Ailerons seems to  work a little better.

  

 Droop tips are attached with screws.

  

 Extended the wing span about two feet, a foot on  each wing panel.

  

 Hope that answered all your questions?

  

 No...........I don't recommend droop tips on FS's,  but it is your bird and your call.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 hauck's holler, alabama  

  

  

 [quote]    What happened on the testing of the droop    tips? I saw some very spectacular stall and landing figures- quite low, for    the size of the aircraft, and without VG's. How about low speed turns,    crosswind handling, and T/O speeds? In your opinion, which did you like    better? How were they attached? How much did they extend the wingspan?

    

                                                      Bill Sullivan

                                                       

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: droop tips

Thanks, John. I am merely gathering information and satisfying curiosity. It isn't often that someone can make such a structural change so quickly on the same plane, and then run a comparison. When the weather gets better it will be very interesting to see the T/O and landing distances. The only changes I am considering on the spare wings are to possibly shorten the ailerons. The wings are already clipped, almost down to Firefly length. Let us know when on your next test session.

   

                                             Bill Sullivan

                                              FS/KX

                                             Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: Re: droop tips

Clipping the wings on a a Kolb is a very bad idea.   The Kolbs have so much drag, you are not going to get any more speed out of the firestar by clipping the wings, but you will.



Decrease Climb rate

Increase Stall Speed

Increase your approach speeds.

Decrease your short field performance.



In other words, end up with an airplane that does not perform as well, and is more dangerous than it was in its stock form.    I think you have been told this before, and if that is what you want, go for it, you deserve what you get.  I just hope you don't give this bad advice to anyone else...



As Johns tests on the MK III clearly  indicate, having more wing area improves a Kolb a lot.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: droop tips

In a message dated 4/1/2008 1:27:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot"    <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>



Clipping the wings on a a Kolb is a very    bad idea.   The Kolbs have so much drag, you are not going to get    any more speed out of the firestar by clipping the wings, but you will.

In    other words, end up with an airplane that does not perform as well, and is    more dangerous 	
 Mike, you forgot one thing, In gusty air or windy landings I  believe that I would rather be in a chopped wing Firestar aka Firefly.  By  your description a Firefly would be an unsafe poorly performing aircraft.

  	  Quote: 	
		  steve

	


Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: droop tips

> Clipping the wings on a a Kolb is a very bad idea.   The Kolbs have so 

much drag, you are not going to get any more speed out of the firestar by 

clipping the wings, but you will.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Decrease Climb rate

 Increase Stall Speed

 Increase your approach speeds.

 Decrease your short field performance.



 In other words, end up with an airplane that does not perform as well, and 

 is more dangerous than it was in its stock form.    I think you have been 

 told this before, and if that is what you want, go for it, you deserve 

 what you get.  I just hope you don't give this bad advice to anyone 

 else...



 As Johns tests on the MK III clearly  indicate, having more wing area 

 improves a Kolb a lot.



 Mike


	




Mike B:



Where do I begin?



I fly several Kolb models with clipped wings, both 22 feet.  Before I flew 

the SS, my first clip wing flight, I was a little bit, no...............a 

lot leery of those short little stubby wings with their short little lift 

struts.  After I flew it the first time, taking off up hill and through the 

trees to the north at the Oshkosh UL strip, I was hooked, like most others 

that get the opportunity to fly a SS.  IIRC, the first SS from Old Kolb 

stalled at 40 mph clean, handled like a dream, was a real hot rod to fly, 

and I liked it.



Same, same for the FF.



I will share this with you all although not many folks at Oshkosh that year 

ever knew it.  New airplanes, especially new models, always have a lot of 

little different things going on that takes a little while to learn.  My 

first impression with the SS was that it was difficult to taxi, e.g., did 

not want to roll.  I taxiied out, took off, went flying, came back in and 

landed.  Still seemed like it took a lot of power to get this thing to roll. 

When I got back to my parking area I asked Dennis Sounder about this 

difficult taxi problem with the SS.  He was not aware of it, but suggested I 

check to make sure the parking brake valve was open.  They had mounted it 

under the seat.  My first Kolb to fly with a parking brake.  Wonder I did 

not put it on its nose, if not for the long gear legs, and nose high three 

point stance of the old SS.  



Personally, Mike, I think you need to do more home work and get some more 

experience in all the Kolb models before you come on board with posts of 

this nature.  I am not going to call or insinuate you are dumb, stupid, an 

idiot, or just plain wrong, but I will say you are coming across as grossly 

misinformed.



Like I have said many times, these little Kolb airplanes ain't necessarily 

like all the other airplanes out there.  They have their own little 

peculiarities, not necessarily bad.  Some are beyond description when the 

engineers get ahold of them.  Can't understand why their numbers and the 

Kolb don't always jive.  



Take care,



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: droop tips

What I posted about wingspan on airplanes several months ago, and again today agrees with what you reported in your flight tests of the new MK III Xtra with longer wings.   Lower stall speeds, better climb, slower approach speeds etc. etc...



Am I missing something here, are you saying the short wing MK III performs better than the new style MK III  ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: droop tips

 	  Quote: 	
		   Am I missing something here, are you saying the short wing MK III performs 

 better than the new style MK III  ?



 Mike


	




Mike B:



Yes, I think you are missing something.



No, I did not say that.



I didn't do a comparison test between the new and old X, or the original 

MKIII.



For clarification, the MKIII was designed in 1990.  Kits were produced 

beginning of 1991.



The MKIIIx was a modified version of the MKIII.  Since the MKIIIx was first 

produced, there have been several iterations of it, with the latest the long 

wing, droop tip MKIIIx.



The MKIII has not changed since 1991, with the exception of modifications 

that most owners and builders are not aware of.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: Re: droop tips

With Miss Pfer staying home and the 'test completed' does this mean we'll see you flying the yellow M3X (at) s-n-f? 



[quote="John Hauck"]Morning Bill:

  

 What happened to droop tip test?  I completed  the test.

  

   

 john h

 mkIII

 hauck's holler, alabama  

  

  

 [quote]

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: droop tips

Morning Scott:

  

 Yes, I am going to do my best to be flying the X at  S&F.

  

 Glad to hear you all are going to be there  too.

  

 Don't know how it will fly in Florida air, since it  is a Kentucky aircraft.  Travis told me it would do just fine.

  

 Should be a good comparison between some of the  hotter landing SLA's.  Always land behind one of those guys, and not a two  place Quicksilver.  Makes the airplane look better.  

  

 Loading out now for departure.  Ground bound  to Florida.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 hauck's holler, alabama

  

  

  

 [quote]    

With Miss Pfer staying home and the    'test completed' does this mean we'll see you flying the yellow M3X (at) s-n-f?    



 Scott

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: droop tips

John, the air tends to be thicker up there, that's what causes that  drawl.

  

 steve do not archive

  

  In a message dated 4/2/2008 7:54:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   Don't know how it will fly in Florida air, since    it is a Kentucky aircraft.  Travis told me it would do just    fine.

    

	




Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Re: droop tips or, Clipped wings & Wing Loadings.

Just came across a November 2000 Dan Johnson review of the Kolbra which has some info on the subject. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   The test Kolbra has a wing loading of 5.2 pounds per square foot, according to Labhart. This can only be true if our test Kolbra weighed 811 pounds fully loaded and perhaps it did as Norm is smaller than I and I'm an FAA average 170 pounds. Not every ultralight flies at its gross weight (though that is more common than having excess, unused weight). At full gross, wing loading calculates to 6.4 pounds per square foot in the Kolbra.



You may find it interesting that most 2-seat ultralights run wing loadings from the high 5s up to 6, 7, 8, and even 9 pounds per square foot. On the other hand, even when built by the same manufacturer most single-place ultralights have wing loadings in the 3- to 4-pound range with the highest hitting the low 5 pounds per square foot. This is true for New Kolb with the FireFly at 4.3 and the FireStar I at 3.9 pounds per square foot. I think this simple fact identifies one of the reasons why single- and 2-seaters fly differently.



Even at 6.4, Kolbra is in the lower range of all ultralight 2-seaters. Putting it in perspective, the flashy new Cirrus SR20 (4-seat general aviation plane) has a wing loading above 20 and hang gliders vary around 2 pounds per square foot.



When you load up the wing more, you generally get greater speed. All other things being roughly equal, handling may be crisper, and stall usually rises. The Kolbra has a 40-mph stall listed in company literature.



	




So I guess it depends on how much you 'clip' the wings when assessing the pro's and con's.



David.



Nb. I wonder what the wing loading was like on the F104 Starfighter ?

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