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Doors coming off
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VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come  off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse frames.

  

 Are we sure that the door handles were closed  properly and in the locked position?

 . 

 Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the  problem but most do not.

  

 I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000  hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans  that can have a look and maybe do some measuring ?

  

 I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just  need some facts

  

 I have written to Vans to the engieering department  to see what they say

  

 regards Chris

   [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

Chris, from what I've heard, MOST of the RV-10's with door issues

were caused by the rear pin not being in the frame.  I think the

one being discussed currently (416EC) is the only one that this

is in question on, as far as I've heard.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Chris and Susie McGough wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come off were latched 

 corectly where they go into the fuse frames.

  

 Are we sure that the door handles were closed properly and in the locked 

 position?

 .

 Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the problem but most do not.

  

 I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000 hours on it , why has the 

 door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans that can have a look 

 and maybe do some measuring ?

  

 I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just need some facts

  

 I have written to Vans to the engieering department to see what they say

  

 regards Chris

 

 *

rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

Vans did have an issue with a door early on with 410RV.  I don’t know the specifics but I think John C might.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I don’t know if the door came off or not but they did have a door related issue.  I think it was while going to/from Osh or some other eastern states flyin.  

   

Ben Westfall  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie McGough

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Doors coming off  

  

     

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse frames.  

    

   

    

Are we sure that the door handles were closed properly and in the locked position?  

    

.   

    

Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the problem but most do not.  

    

   

    

I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000 hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans that can have a look and maybe do some measuring ?  

    

   

    

I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just need some facts  

    

   

    

I have written to Vans to the engieering department to see what they say  

    

   

    

regards Chris  

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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

One other idea we had was the placement of a knob on the  door inside, back near the pin. this will allow complete control (two hands  pulling) of positioning the door for closure.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben  Westfall

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:24 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Doors coming  off

Vans did have an issue  with a door early on with 410RV.  I don’t know the specifics but I think  John C might.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I don’t know if the door  came off or not but they did have a door related issue.  I think it was  while going to/from Osh or some other eastern states  flyin. 

Ben  Westfall 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie  McGough

Sent: Wednesday, April  09, 2008 7:56 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Doors coming  off

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors  that have come off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse  frames.

Are we sure that the door handles  were closed properly and in the locked  position?

.  

Remember the tunnel heat problem,  some have the problem but most do not.

I would think Vans 10 would have  close to 1000 hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live  close to Vans that can have a look and maybe do some measuring  ?

I am absolutely not saying there is  no problem just need some facts

I have written to Vans to the  engieering department to see what they say

regards  Chris

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

The original prototype door on N410RV incurred damage during a x-cnty airshow trip to Colorado.  As I remember the canopy and door assemblies off N220RV were removed as a quick fix and integral completed “total unit” as a Second Iteration prototype build and used to repair N410RV.  All of the early kits going back to Randy s/n 006 and John Nys s/n 047  were the 220RV Gen II  type.  I believe 416EC s/n 416 was still this same type.  Since then, several improvements (alternations have been included) aftermarket which is the thrill of this group, the open discussion, the talent of the individuals and the desire to pursue excellence in build.  

   

Tim did an excellent explanation on the Taper.  I am opposed to what I believe is in the plans (that should be nothing new to anyone).  The Strike plate idea is a corrective measure for the high likelihood that operators will try to close a door with the aft pin partially extended.  My review of the 416EC pictures shows an alignment and strike issue with the Pilot’s plate.  I believe that other than in Tim’s “safety locked” scenario this system might allow an opening or movement at a critical point in time.  The Rack systems should not allow continued retraction of an engaged pin during flight.  I believe the taper needs to be oriented to the interior never the exterior.  I believe the pin needs to be “fully” engaged into the metal door pillar.  I believe the UMHD is not adequate for a long term receptacle.  The view of 416EC showed significant stress forces on the mounting hardware.  I believe a handhold which pulls the door down and closed positively even with a door ajar “in-flight” is a wise design change.  

   

Within this body of personal opinion are several quality improvements which need universal  illumination.  For those with the second generation door & latch (220RV).  I would like to see 416EC the last RV-10 to ever suffer latch release and premature door departure in flight.  

   

Pilots are human, mistakes happen, the door handle might not always get “safety latched” and remain so.  The secondary latch on the leading edge or a boldly relocated hinge set like on Cirrus can sure get the discussion stirred.  

   

Let’s keep the sharp eyes focused at SNF and less mud on the field.  There is lots to learn.  Think Safety, Fly Safe.  

   

John C.  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:24 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

  

   

Vans did have an issue with a door early on with 410RV.  I don’t know the specifics but I think John C might.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I don’t know if the door came off or not but they did have a door related issue.  I think it was while going to/from Osh or some other eastern states flyin.  

   

Ben Westfall  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie McGough

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Doors coming off  

  

     

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse frames.  

    

   

    

Are we sure that the door handles were closed properly and in the locked position?  

    

.   

    

Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the problem but most do not.  

    

   

    

I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000 hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans that can have a look and maybe do some measuring ?  

    

   

    

I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just need some facts  

    

   

    

I have written to Vans to the engieering department to see what they say  

    

   

    

regards Chris  

   	  Quote: 	
		     	
[/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
http://forums.matronics.com[/b] 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


      [quote][b]

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

I'm starting to think of a simple and inexpensive  design.  Like our co-builder Mr. Leffler, I'm still a ways away from  reaching this point.

  

 However I've heard of a few RV-10's with handles that allow  the door to be pulled down when you're sitting in the seat.  I'm thinking  of making this pull down strap out of some higher strength material and actually  hooking it inside the cabin to a fixed point.

  

 If it's done correctly, the handles will be functional and  a open-door scenario could result in only a couple of inches worth of  opening.

  

 Sure it would be a distraction if you had to fly the plane  with a door that was cracked open a few inches, but it sure beats having the  door remove your Horizontal Stab and tear up your airplane.

  

 It's cheap, simple, fool proof, and  practical.

  

 Phil

  

  

  

  



   From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net]  

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:40 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Doors coming  off

 

 One other idea we had was the placement of a knob on the  door inside, back near the pin. this will allow complete control (two hands  pulling) of positioning the door for closure.



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben  Westfall

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:24 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Doors coming  off

 

  

Vans did have an issue  with a door early on with 410RV.  I don’t know the specifics but I think  John C might.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I don’t know if the door  came off or not but they did have a door related issue.  I think it was  while going to/from Osh or some other eastern states  flyin. 

  

Ben  Westfall 

  

  

     

 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie  McGough

Sent: Wednesday, April  09, 2008 7:56 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Doors coming  off

 

   

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors  that have come off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse  frames.

  

 

  

Are we sure that the door handles  were closed properly and in the locked  position?

  

.  

  

Remember the tunnel heat problem,  some have the problem but most do not.

  

 

  

I would think Vans 10 would have  close to 1000 hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live  close to Vans that can have a look and maybe do some measuring  ?

  

 

  

I am absolutely not saying there is  no problem just need some facts

  

 

  

I have written to Vans to the  engieering department to see what they say

  

 

  

regards  Chris

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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

410RV was right at 1000 hours last summer. Probably has a couple hundred more by now.



On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Chris and Susie McGough <VHMUM(at)bigpond.com (VHMUM(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:

 [quote]       Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come  off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse frames.

  

 Are we sure that the door handles were closed  properly and in the locked position?

 . 

 Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the  problem but most do not.

  

 I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000  hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans  that can have a look and maybe do some measuring ?

  

 I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just  need some facts

  

 I have written to Vans to the engieering department  to see what they say

  

 regards Chris

    	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

Isn’t the idea of the taper to the outside, to ensure capture of the block and thereafter apply a leverage to firmly pull the door closed and into alignment?  

John 40315   

     

   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

 Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 2:08 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

  

   

The original prototype door on N410RV incurred damage during a x-cnty airshow trip to Colorado.  As I remember the canopy and door assemblies off N220RV were removed as a quick fix and integral completed “total unit” as a Second Iteration prototype build and used to repair N410RV.  All of the early kits going back to Randy s/n 006 and John Nys s/n 047  were the 220RV Gen II  type.  I believe 416EC s/n 416 was still this same type.  Since then, several improvements (alternations have been included) aftermarket which is the thrill of this group, the open discussion, the talent of the individuals and the desire to pursue excellence in build.  

   

Tim did an excellent explanation on the Taper.  I am opposed to what I believe is in the plans (that should be nothing new to anyone).  The Strike plate idea is a corrective measure for the high likelihood that operators will try to close a door with the aft pin partially extended.  My review of the 416EC pictures shows an alignment and strike issue with the Pilot’s plate.  I believe that other than in Tim’s “safety locked” scenario this system might allow an opening or movement at a critical point in time.  The Rack systems should not allow continued retraction of an engaged pin during flight.  I believe the taper needs to be oriented to the interior never the exterior.  I believe the pin needs to be “fully” engaged into the metal door pillar.  I believe the UMHD is not adequate for a long term receptacle.  The view of 416EC showed significant stress forces on the mounting hardware.  I believe a handhold which pulls the door down and closed positively even with a door ajar “in-flight” is a wise design change.  

   

Within this body of personal opinion are several quality improvements which need universal  illumination.  For those with the second generation door & latch (220RV).  I would like to see 416EC the last RV-10 to ever suffer latch release and premature door departure in flight.  

   

Pilots are human, mistakes happen, the door handle might not always get “safety latched” and remain so.  The secondary latch on the leading edge or a boldly relocated hinge set like on Cirrus can sure get the discussion stirred.  

   

Let’s keep the sharp eyes focused at SNF and less mud on the field.  There is lots to learn.  Think Safety, Fly Safe.  

   

John C.  

           

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:24 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

  

   

Vans did have an issue with a door early on with 410RV.  I don’t know the specifics but I think John C might.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I don’t know if the door came off or not but they did have a door related issue.  I think it was while going to/from Osh or some other eastern states flyin.  

   

Ben Westfall  

   

   

           

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie McGough

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Doors coming off  

  

     

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse frames.  

    

   

    

Are we sure that the door handles were closed properly and in the locked position?  

    

.   

    

Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the problem but most do not.  

    

   

    

I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000 hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans that can have a look and maybe do some measuring ?  

    

   

    

I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just need some facts  

    

   

    

I have written to Vans to the engieering department to see what they say  

    

   

    

regards Chris  

   	  Quote: 	
		     	
[/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
http://forums.matronics.com[/b] 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
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dav1111(at)erfwireless.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: Doors coming off

I have a pull down strap mounted to the front lower part of  the door which hangs down about 18 inches and allows me to pull the door down  for closure.  I also have a door handle mounted to the rear part of the  door that I can grip and pull in the rear of the door with one hand while  pushing the door handle closed which I find essential in getting both the front  pin and rear pin sealed.

  

 Under no circumstances would I ever consider any type of door  pin that did not go all the way through the door frame.  Essential to me is  the ability to manually feel the door pin on the backside of the front and rear  door frame to insure the pins are fully seated before I take off.

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV - 200+ hours

    [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: Doors coming off

As an addition to the standard setup I am going to use a  steel set screw from Mcmaster Carr to thread inside the aluminum tube to cover  the area of the tube carrying the shear load. I do agree that  rear door  handle will greatly assist in pulling in the door so that the pins insert  correctly.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell  Daves

Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:25 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Doors coming  off

 I have a pull down strap mounted to the front lower part of  the door which hangs down about 18 inches and allows me to pull the door down  for closure.  I also have a door handle mounted to the rear part of the  door that I can grip and pull in the rear of the door with one hand while  pushing the door handle closed which I find essential in getting both the front  pin and rear pin sealed.

 Under no circumstances would I ever consider any type of door  pin that did not go all the way through the door frame.  Essential to me is  the ability to manually feel the door pin on the backside of the front and rear  door frame to insure the pins are fully seated before I take off.

 Russ Daves

 N710RV - 200+ hours

[quote]

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Doors coming off

I’m sure they will say Yes.  Check any lockset or latchset for the logic of tapered pins on any door of a residential or commercial building.  The only exception I can think of is an armory or bank vault door.  I still stand my the logic for the taper to go opposite the plan.  Oh yeh, and the pins to be fully retracted before a closure attempt.  Just think of a deadbolt doing damage if not retracted.  

   

John C  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Dunne

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:23 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

  

   

Isn’t the idea of the taper to the outside, to ensure capture of the block and thereafter apply a leverage to firmly pull the door closed and into alignment?  

John 40315   

     

   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

 Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 2:08 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

  

   

The original prototype door on N410RV incurred damage during a x-cnty airshow trip to Colorado.  As I remember the canopy and door assemblies off N220RV were removed as a quick fix and integral completed “total unit” as a Second Iteration prototype build and used to repair N410RV.  All of the early kits going back to Randy s/n 006 and John Nys s/n 047  were the 220RV Gen II  type.  I believe 416EC s/n 416 was still this same type.  Since then, several improvements (alternations have been included) aftermarket which is the thrill of this group, the open discussion, the talent of the individuals and the desire to pursue excellence in build.  

   

Tim did an excellent explanation on the Taper.  I am opposed to what I believe is in the plans (that should be nothing new to anyone).  The Strike plate idea is a corrective measure for the high likelihood that operators will try to close a door with the aft pin partially extended.  My review of the 416EC pictures shows an alignment and strike issue with the Pilot’s plate.  I believe that other than in Tim’s “safety locked” scenario this system might allow an opening or movement at a critical point in time.  The Rack systems should not allow continued retraction of an engaged pin during flight.  I believe the taper needs to be oriented to the interior never the exterior.  I believe the pin needs to be “fully” engaged into the metal door pillar.  I believe the UMHD is not adequate for a long term receptacle.  The view of 416EC showed significant stress forces on the mounting hardware.  I believe a handhold which pulls the door down and closed positively even with a door ajar “in-flight” is a wise design change.  

   

Within this body of personal opinion are several quality improvements which need universal  illumination.  For those with the second generation door & latch (220RV).  I would like to see 416EC the last RV-10 to ever suffer latch release and premature door departure in flight.  

   

Pilots are human, mistakes happen, the door handle might not always get “safety latched” and remain so.  The secondary latch on the leading edge or a boldly relocated hinge set like on Cirrus can sure get the discussion stirred.  

   

Let’s keep the sharp eyes focused at SNF and less mud on the field.  There is lots to learn.  Think Safety, Fly Safe.  

   

John C.  

           

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:24 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

  

   

Vans did have an issue with a door early on with 410RV.  I don’t know the specifics but I think John C might.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I don’t know if the door came off or not but they did have a door related issue.  I think it was while going to/from Osh or some other eastern states flyin.  

   

Ben Westfall  

   

   

           

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie McGough

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Doors coming off  

  

     

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse frames.  

    

   

    

Are we sure that the door handles were closed properly and in the locked position?  

    

.   

    

Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the problem but most do not.  

    

   

    

I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000 hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans that can have a look and maybe do some measuring ?  

    

   

    

I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just need some facts  

    

   

    

I have written to Vans to the engieering department to see what they say  

    

   

    

regards Chris  

   	  Quote: 	
		     	
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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Doors coming off

It's interesting that this thread is sticking around so long this

time...that's good, it breeds awareness.

First, in regards to the problem, those (I've read this a.m.'s

posts already) who are saying that the issue is an alignment

issue, are correct.  The problem is, the door handle is forward

on the door, and when you pull in to close it, the front of the

door pulls in, but the back doesn't pull in as far.  So, then

you go to latch it, and the back pin hits the nylon block or

the door frame.



Thinner door seals might help.  I can't say I'm unhappy with

the ones that came with the kit though, because they seal very

well...never had a plane with such well sealed doors.  But,

yes, with thinner seals this issue could be helped a bit.



One of the big improvements would be to have a pull handle

centered on the door, or a secondary pull handle on the aft

part of the door.  The problem there is that, while I'm

a chunky monkey, I'm still under 40, and yet it isn't

super easy to twist around with the seat in the way, to

pull a handle in.  So you're still going to have to take

care.



In short, this problem exists because of the way you pull

the door shut, and requires that you pull it shut nicely

before you try to engage the pins. To me, if you still

have all of the OTHER components left the same, you're

still going to have a hard time regardless of if you use

the rivethead pins or the standard, because you NEED to

get the alignment good before you try to latch, or the

pins hit the block and you get a nasty noise.  This is

NOT a dig on them, because I see benefits to their system.

But, the video that was originally put out, where they

dropped the door in place and latched it, is a little

misleading, because if you have nice tightly sealed

door seals, latching it won't be as easy as pictured.

I'd love to fly in a plane with alternative door seals to

see how tight they seal, and then perhaps I'd consider

them, but I am thus far happy with the standard ones

because of the sealing.



John A, thanks for your description of the installation.

Very much appreciated.  I'm still not 100% comfortable

with having the threaded area anywhere near the spot

that if cracked, would cause the major failure, but at

least it gives me a little more comfort.  Ideally, to me,

those pins would be very long and done before you build

the door completely.  But, I would have a harder time

installing those anyway.



John C, I appreciate your discomfort with the taper, but

really, I think the pins at least need a bullet nose to

aid in centering. The taper is probably overkill, but I

don't think an opposite taper would do any more than cause

more damage...a bullet tip is probably the ideal.  Certainly,

without the taper I have now, given the standard install,

I would not have had good luck with an opposite taper...I

would have even worse paint chip issues.



Wayne H, You're right on with the reasons...good job.



Now, a couple other topics....



1) RE: front hinges.   Not a bad concept. But, I think

it would be much harder to design a robust strong and

light door with strong enough hinges, and you'd have

to be really careful when the door sags or you could crack

it.  Better?  From a door flying off standpoint, sure, but

it definitely would require more care, and a totally overall

stronger design, more expense, and all that.  So I can see

why Van's opted for what they did.



2) Re: Closing Doors.  Personally, other than my wife, I

try never to ALLOW anyone else to close and latch my doors.

On one of my earlier flights, a co-worker reached up, grabbed

the door, and SLAM! Slammed it down...thinking it was auto

latching like a car door.  That sent shivers down my spine,

so after that I decided to inconvenience my passengers and

insist on me latching it.   Also, one of the nice things I

did during the build was go real slow in trimming that drip

edge on the sides of the door.  What this did for me is

make the side gap almost NOTHING if the door is closed

tightly.  So, in my plane, it's ABSOLUTELY visible by

a quick glance if you have the door in the proper position

to latch, and it's closed tight.  If the pin is out of the

hole, you'd have a HUGE gap.  So yeah, some really

sloppy door checks are what caused the door departures.



3) Latching:  The latching mechanism itself I'm plenty

happy with.  If someone wanted to add a secondary latch,

fine, not a bad idea for the most part.  Ideally I'd

rather see a vertical pin in the door bottom as a 3rd

latch point, that latches along automatically with the

other points.  But, as I said before, if you have a

positive "click" latching system, and you latch it right,

you should be good to go.



For what it's worth, once mine is latched, I don't detect

any for/aft or other movement.  They're just tight.

The latching is positive and I have zero worries of a

properly latched door being released because of the

handle being pulled.



Whatever you do, try to use your utmost craftsmanship when

you do the door latches.  From time to time I see RV-10's

where you can tell they didn't take the care on some of

the glass-related items.  But the doors, try to do a

great job at least on the latches.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



John W. Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The original prototype door on N410RV incurred damage during a x-cnty 

 airshow trip to Colorado.  As I remember the canopy and door assemblies 

 off N220RV were removed as a quick fix and integral completed “total 

 unit” as a Second Iteration prototype build and used to repair N410RV. 

  All of the early kits going back to Randy s/n 006 and John Nys s/n 047 

  were the 220RV Gen II  type.  I believe 416EC s/n 416 was still this 

 same type.  Since then, several improvements (alternations have been 

 included) aftermarket which is the thrill of this group, the open 

 discussion, the talent of the individuals and the desire to pursue 

 excellence in build.

 

  

 

 Tim did an excellent explanation on the Taper.  I am opposed to what I 

 believe is in the plans (that should be nothing new to anyone).  The 

 Strike plate idea is a corrective measure for the high likelihood that 

 operators will try to close a door with the aft pin partially extended. 

  My review of the 416EC pictures shows an alignment and strike issue 

 with the Pilot’s plate.  I believe that other than in Tim’s “safety 

 locked” scenario this system might allow an opening or movement at a 

 critical point in time.  The Rack systems should not allow continued 

 retraction of an engaged pin during flight.  I believe the taper needs 

 to be oriented to the interior never the exterior.  I believe the pin 

 needs to be “fully” engaged into the metal door pillar.  I believe the 

 UMHD is not adequate for a long term receptacle.  The view of 416EC 

 showed significant stress forces on the mounting hardware.  I believe a 

 handhold which pulls the door down and closed positively even with a 

 door ajar “in-flight” is a wise design change.

 

  

 

 Within this body of personal opinion are several quality improvements 

 which need universal  illumination.  For those with the second 

 generation door & latch (220RV).  I would like to see 416EC the last 

 RV-10 to ever suffer latch release and premature door departure in flight.

 

  

 

 Pilots are human, mistakes happen, the door handle might not always get 

 “safety latched” and remain so.  The secondary latch on the leading edge 

 or a boldly relocated hinge set like on Cirrus can sure get the 

 discussion stirred.

 

  

 

 Let’s keep the sharp eyes focused at SNF and less mud on the field. 

  There is lots to learn.  Think Safety, Fly Safe.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Doors coming off

I don't see the point, in a plane.  yeah, I get your

point on an auto-latching house door latch....you HAVE to

have the taper inward to push in the latch when you close

it.  So sure, there it makes perfect sense.



On the RV-10, the taper helps correct slight misalignment

and bring the door tighter....that's not a bad thing.

I think a bullet tip is even better, but you're never

going to be able to pull the door TOO far in, so the

taper on the inside of the pin will never assist you

in doing anything.



So I guess we disagree here.  The taper itself isn't

an, or THE issue....the issue is you NEED to have plenty

of pin sticking through the door frame...and you would

want at least some of the pin captured by the frame

to NOT have a taper on it, so you have the full

strength of a complete round section of tubing.  If it

weren't for the fact that the alignment would suck,

a square cut tubing piece would work ok too...and would

probably be ideal.  A solid round rod, like a dead

bolt.



So I guess I don't think the taper is something to

make an issue of, other than to keep it fairly short

so you have plenty of length of full-strength tubing.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John W. Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I’m sure they will say Yes.  Check any lockset or latchset for the logic 

 of tapered pins on any door of a residential or commercial building. 

  The only exception I can think of is an armory or bank vault door.  I 

 still stand my the logic for the taper to go opposite the plan.  Oh yeh, 

 and the pins to be fully retracted before a closure attempt.  Just think 

 of a deadbolt doing damage if not retracted.

 

  

 

 John C

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

How about a bungee?  LOL  

   

Gary  

40274  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil

 Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:31 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

  

   

I'm starting to think of a simple and inexpensive design.  Like our co-builder Mr. Leffler, I'm still a ways away from reaching this point.  

   

However I've heard of a few RV-10's with handles that allow the door to be pulled down when you're sitting in the seat.  I'm thinking of making this pull down strap out of some higher strength material and actually hooking it inside the cabin to a fixed point.  

   

If it's done correctly, the handles will be functional and a open-door scenario could result in only a couple of inches worth of opening.  

   

Sure it would be a distraction if you had to fly the plane with a door that was cracked open a few inches, but it sure beats having the door remove your Horizontal Stab and tear up your airplane.  

   

It's cheap, simple, fool proof, and practical.  

   

Phil  

   

   

   

   

       

  

From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net] 

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:40 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

One other idea we had was the placement of a knob on the door inside, back near the pin. this will allow complete control (two hands pulling) of positioning the door for closure.  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:24 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Doors coming off  

Vans did have an issue with a door early on with 410RV.  I don’t know the specifics but I think John C might.  Hopefully he will chime in.  I don’t know if the door came off or not but they did have a door related issue.  I think it was while going to/from Osh or some other eastern states flyin.  

   

Ben Westfall  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie McGough

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Doors coming off  

  

     

Guys are we 100% sure that the doors that have come off were latched corectly where they go into the fuse frames.  

    

   

    

Are we sure that the door handles were closed properly and in the locked position?  

    

.   

    

Remember the tunnel heat problem, some have the problem but most do not.  

    

   

    

I would think Vans 10 would have close to 1000 hours on it , why has the door not come off?? Does someone live close to Vans that can have a look and maybe do some measuring ?  

    

   

    

I am absolutely not saying there is no problem just need some facts  

    

   

    

I have written to Vans to the engieering department to see what they say  

    

   

    

regards Chris  

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ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: Doors coming off

LOL...sure Gary....how bout we just slip a prefabricated rope loop between the door handles, installed after the doors are down and ummmm....  locked. 

Rick Sked

---

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: Doors coming off

After reading all the posts on doors coming off I  went to the hangar yesterday to recheck mine to be sure they were doing what I  thought they were. I have installed the Rivet Head conversion and I read someone  saying that bullets don't go past the guide into and past the door frame. On  mine they are going through the guide and through the door frame. Ok  there.

  

 I also heard several post say to reach back and  feel that the pin has gone through the door guide. If you have a full interior,  like I do, you obviously can't do that because the area is covered. I have the  door warning lights installed and I check religiously to be sure the light has  gone off after the door is closed. I also will not let passengers close the  door. I usually stay outside the plane until the passenger is buckled in and  then I close the door.

  

 I can and would highly recommend the Rivet Head  type of conversion. I think Steven DiNieri also has this type of  conversion as well as Rivet Head. 

  

 Boy the damage done to the latest door off incident  surely gives you the incentive to double check that the doors are closed  properly before takeoff.

  

 Wayne Edgerton N602WT

  

  

   [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: Doors coming off

Wayne, with your beautiful paint job, that extra degree of respect for passenger and aircraft are a smart Checklist item.  

   

John  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton

 Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 5:54 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Doors coming off  

  

  

     

After reading all the posts on doors coming off I went to the hangar yesterday to recheck mine to be sure they were doing what I thought they were. I have installed the Rivet Head conversion and I read someone saying that bullets don't go past the guide into and past the door frame. On mine they are going through the guide and through the door frame. Ok there.  

    

   

    

I also heard several post say to reach back and feel that the pin has gone through the door guide. If you have a full interior, like I do, you obviously can't do that because the area is covered. I have the door warning lights installed and I check religiously to be sure the light has gone off after the door is closed. I also will not let passengers close the door. I usually stay outside the plane until the passenger is buckled in and then I close the door.  

    

   

    

I can and would highly recommend the Rivet Head type of conversion. I think Steven DiNieri also has this type of conversion as well as Rivet Head.   

    

   

    

Boy the damage done to the latest door off incident surely gives you the incentive to double check that the doors are closed properly before takeoff.  

    

   

    

Wayne Edgerton N602WT  

    

   

    

   

  [quote]  [/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution [b]

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: Doors coming off

Question?  How much does the door bow outward in flight.  I am going flying in about 30 minutes and will check mine, but just wondering if any of the other flyers have tried to measure the flex.  I have looked at it in flight before and do not remember any noticeable increased gap in the door.  The reason I am interested is that I did cut my rods down to have the pins be just long enough to go through the AL blocks.  With the tight fit of the doors, I do not think that a racking motion could pull the pin out of the block, outward flex of the door could have some affect.  

     

Rene' Felker  

RV-10 N423CF Flying  

801-721-6080  

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james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Doors coming off

Being a lurker, I've read this thread with interest. Just to make a

general comment, for good structural "retention" of the door, I feel

the best set-up is for the door pins to pass completely through the

opening frame on the fuselage. Of course, I'm basing this on the

pictures I've seen so far. How does the warning light system "sense"

full locking with the "blueprint" set-up for the door? Seems to me it

would be a simple matter to add a couple micro-switches to the back

side of the door frames so they light up (or better turn off a light)

when the pins are fully engaged into the frames therefore indicating

proper lock.



On 4/11/08, Wayne Edgerton <wayne.e(at)grandecom.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   After reading all the posts on doors coming off I went to the hangar

 yesterday to recheck mine to be sure they were doing what I thought they

 were. I have installed the Rivet Head conversion and I read someone saying

 that bullets don't go past the guide into and past the door frame. On mine

 they are going through the guide and through the door frame. Ok there.



 I also heard several post say to reach back and feel that the pin has gone

 through the door guide. If you have a full interior, like I do, you

 obviously can't do that because the area is covered. I have the door warning

 lights installed and I check religiously to be sure the light has gone off

 after the door is closed. I also will not let passengers close the door. I

 usually stay outside the plane until the passenger is buckled in and then I

 close the door.



 I can and would highly recommend the Rivet Head type of conversion. I think

 Steven DiNieri also has this type of conversion as well as Rivet Head.



 Boy the damage done to the latest door off incident surely gives you the

 incentive to double check that the doors are closed properly before takeoff.



 Wayne Edgerton N602WT

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Doors coming off

That's what the door sensors van's provides do...they're magnetic

sensors, and there are magnets in the tips of the pins.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

James K Hovis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Being a lurker, I've read this thread with interest. Just to make a

 general comment, for good structural "retention" of the door, I feel

 the best set-up is for the door pins to pass completely through the

 opening frame on the fuselage. Of course, I'm basing this on the

 pictures I've seen so far. How does the warning light system "sense"

 full locking with the "blueprint" set-up for the door? Seems to me it

 would be a simple matter to add a couple micro-switches to the back

 side of the door frames so they light up (or better turn off a light)

 when the pins are fully engaged into the frames therefore indicating

 proper lock.

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