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Spacer for Wing Top

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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Good day All,

  

 I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded  their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks  as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount?  If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick.

  

 Thanks in advance.   

 Mike Duane  A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300  

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable  Prop





Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

  [quote][b]

rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

My tongue depressors are the same thickness as yours and did the job exactly as expected.  

   

     

Best regards,  

   

Rob Housman  

Irvine, CA   

Europa XS Tri-Gear  

A070  

Airframe complete  

  

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly(at)aol.com

 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:47 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Spacer for Wing Top  

  

  

     

Good day All,  

    

   

    

I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick.  

    

   

    

Thanks in advance.     

   

    

Mike Duane A207A

 Redding, California

 XS Conventional Gear

 Jabiru 3300 

 Sensenich R64Z N

 Ground Adjustable Prop  

  

  



 

         

  

Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.  

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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Thanks Rob,

  

 So off I go.....

  

 Do Not Archive

  

 Mike Duane  A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300  

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop



Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Mike-

  

 I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week.  If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons.  I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron.  If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps.  To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place.  When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place.

  

 Gotchas:  Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end.  Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed.  It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief.  Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing.  You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun).  Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well.  We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine.   

  

 Let us know how it goes.   

  

 Jim Puglise A-283

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

  Good day All,

  

 I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick.

  

 Thanks in advance.   

 Mike Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300 

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop





   Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

keithhickling(at)clear.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Mike,

 Neville Eyre recommends using strips  floor  linoleum or vinyl under the flaps and ailerons - I found that easier than the  mixing sticks to manipulate. And having done it relatively recently, I  agree that you do need the spacer under the ailerons too or you won't get enough  clearance.

  

 Keith Hickling,

 New Zealand.

 [quote]   ---

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Thanks Jim,

  

 I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added  some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the  wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or  exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts &  bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy  today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of  my dive weights to insure good contact.

  

  Mike Duane  A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300  

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop



  

  In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  jimpuglise(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Mike-

    

   I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last    week.  If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't    use the pacers under the ailerons.  I didn't and I will need to trim more    skin than I want to to get the required up aileron.  If I was going to do    it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps.  To    attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow    hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each    depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in    place.  When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of    packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in  place.

    

   Gotchas:  Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in    the last rib on the outboard end.  Also, it does not mention it in the    manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard    end of the wing that will also be sealed.  It is rather small, so    may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too    for pressure relief.  Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on    the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people    confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing.  You    may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will    "stick to your ribs" (bad pun).  Last, don't forget to scuff sand both    surfaces well.  We just used bricks for weights and it all went    fine.   

    

   Let us know how it goes.   

    

   Jim Puglise A-283

    

    	  Quote: 	
		  --------------      Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

          Good day All,

      

     I have a quick question.......would those people that have already      bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using      stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the      right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070"      thick.

      

     Thanks in advance.       

     Mike      Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300      

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable      Prop





               Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	




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.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




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  [quote][b]

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Let me know how it comes out Mike.  I have quick-build flaps and after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long.  I checked it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been spent shortening it.  I filled the outside ends of the flaps and ailerons.  

  

 Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding?  Bob Berube suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did. 

  

 Jim 

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

  Thanks Jim,

  

 I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact.

  

  Mike Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300 

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop



  

  In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Mike-

  

 I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week.  If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons.  I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron.  If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps.  To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place.  When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place.

  

 Gotchas:  Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end.  Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed.  It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief.  Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing.  You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun).  Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well.  We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine.   

  

 Let us know how it goes.   

  

 Jim Puglise A-283

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -------------- Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

  Good day All,

  

 I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick.

  

 Thanks in advance.   

 Mike Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300 

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop





   Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	




f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




   Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Pre-close? Other than setting the top skin on and shaping for a good fit,  I'm not sure what you are speaking of.

  

  Mike  Duane



  

  In a message dated 4/10/2008 11:45:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  jimpuglise(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Let me know how it comes out Mike.  I have quick-build flaps and    after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long.  I checked    it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been    spent shortening it.  I filled the outside ends of the flaps and    ailerons.  

    

   Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding?  Bob Berube    suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did. 

    

   Jim 

    

    	  Quote: 	
		  --------------      Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

          Thanks Jim,

      

     I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added      some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at      the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering      or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts      & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas.      Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing,      clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact.

      

          Mike      Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300      

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop



      

          In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,      jimpuglise(at)comcast.net writes:

      	  Quote: 	
		         Mike-

        

       I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last        week.  If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you        don't use the pacers under the ailerons.  I didn't and I will need to        trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron.  If I        was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron        and flaps.  To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating        tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the        flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape        across it to hold it in place.  When they were all on, we ran a        couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold        the spacers in place.

        

       Gotchas:  Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure        relief in the last rib on the outboard end.  Also, it does not        mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped        area on the inboard end of the wing that will also        be sealed.  It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd        probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure        relief.  Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the        aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people        confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing.         You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so        it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun).  Last, don't forget to scuff        sand both surfaces well.  We just used bricks for weights and it all        went fine.   

        

       Let us know how it goes.   

        

       Jim Puglise A-283

        

        	  Quote: 	
		  --------------          Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

                  Good day All,

          

         I have a quick question.......would those people that have already          bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual          using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their          thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks          measure about .070" thick.

          

         Thanks in advance.           

         Mike          Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru          3300 

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable          Prop





                           Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	




f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




               Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	




f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




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  [quote][b]

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

Mike-

  

 You mix the redux a little on the thick side using flox, then coat the ribs only.  You then put strips of visqueen over them and install and weight the skin.  In 24 hours you remove the weights, the skins, the plastic, scuff sand the redux, fill the voids, apply another tyhin coat of redux and re-apply the skins and weights.  The reason for this is that some people have opened their wings for one reason or another and found there are voids between the ribs and skins.  In my particular case, when we removed the skin after the pre-close, we found very few voids, so I would have been OK without it.  I understand that the skins produced relatively recently fit much better than some of the earlier ones, so it may or may not be a step worth doing for you.  My kit is A-283 and I don't know at what point they began doing a better job of fitting.    

  

 Jim 

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

  Pre-close? Other than setting the top skin on and shaping for a good fit, I'm not sure what you are speaking of.

  

  Mike Duane



  

  In a message dated 4/10/2008 11:45:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Let me know how it comes out Mike.  I have quick-build flaps and after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long.  I checked it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been spent shortening it.  I filled the outside ends of the flaps and ailerons.  

  

 Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding?  Bob Berube suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did. 

  

 Jim 

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -------------- Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

  Thanks Jim,

  

 I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact.

  

  Mike Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300 

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop



  

  In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Mike-

  

 I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week.  If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons.  I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron.  If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps.  To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place.  When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place.

  

 Gotchas:  Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end.  Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed.  It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief.  Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing.  You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun).  Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well.  We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine.   

  

 Let us know how it goes.   

  

 Jim Puglise A-283

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -------------- Original message -------------- 

From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com 

  Good day All,

  

 I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick.

  

 Thanks in advance.   

 Mike Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300 

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop





   Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	




f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




   Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	




f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




   Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

rowil(at)clara.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

At 2008-04-10 19:50 +0000 jimpuglise(at)comcast.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  You mix the redux a little on the thick side using flox, then coat 

the ribs only.  You then put strips of visqueen over them and 

install and weight the skin


	


Folks - see my journal entry & linked pictures for 16 November 2007 

for a graphic illustration of this on my port wing - go to 

<http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/200711.html>



I've just done the starboard wing in the past week and it displayed a 

different set of rib height variations, so pre-bonding was definitely 

worthwhile for me.



I endorse Neville's advice about using the strip of vinyl as a spacer 

too - anything thinner would have needed excessive trimming to get my 

aileron travel up to spec.



Hope this helps.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 990 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

On Thursday, Apr 10, 2008, at 14:28 US/Pacific, Rowland Carson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I endorse Neville's advice about using the strip of vinyl as a spacer 

 too - anything thinner would have needed excessive trimming to get my 

 aileron travel up to spec.


	


Rowland,



Your journal is quite something...thank you for the reference.  By any 

chance, could you give us a thickness measurement of the vinyl strips 

you're using?



Fred

A194

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

rowil(at)clara.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: Spacer for Wing Top

At 2008-04-10 17:24 -0700 Fred Klein wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

On Thursday, Apr 10, 2008, at 14:28 US/Pacific, Rowland Carson wrote:



>I endorse Neville's advice about using the strip of vinyl as a 

>spacer too - anything thinner would have needed excessive trimming 

>to get my aileron travel up to spec.



Rowland,



Your journal is quite something...thank you for the reference.  By 

any chance, could you give us a thickness measurement of the vinyl 

strips you're using?


	


Fred - thanks for the kind words - I try to make it as useful as I 

can to me, and if in the process it helps others, that's a bonus!



The vinyl was 1.36mm (see the entry for 2007-11-25) but I would guess 

that anything up to about 1.5mm would be OK. The vinyl does tend to 

compress a bit if you get the recommended amount of weight on the 

joint.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 990 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

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