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dmasys(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: RV safety |
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| Quote: | From: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Conclusion, the RV-10 is significantly more
complex and challenging than our little brother RV-6, RV-7 or RV8.
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I can second John's observation as I continue to fly my RV-7A (more or less one of the last round gauge panel RV's to be built, with first flight in December 2003) and my RV-10 with its GRT dual EFIS coupled to GNS480 and TruTrak with GSVG.
The -7A requires more attention to airmanship, especially in slow flight where those short wings will bite you if a stall occurs close to the ground. The -10 is much more forgiving with respect to airspeeds and handling.
The -7A does have an approach certified GPS (UPS GX-60) that gives course guidance to a TruTrak with altitude hold, but I have to mind the altitude during IFR approaches just like in the days of hand-flown ILS's. One can either have the GPS fly the approach, or can abandon the approach and go missed; that's about it. So when things don't go according to plan on an approach, there is a real simple mindset of 'ok, let's climb, get out of here, and make some other plan'.
The RV-10, on the other hand, has a bunch of different autopilot modes: its own internal course guidance from the TruTrak, GPSS guidance which is coming from the EFIS and might or might not really be GPSS, since the EFIS generates its own course guidance. And the GNS480 has a mind of its own about what it calls discontinuities between enroute and approach configurations.
With the latest database update on the GNS480 it suddenly decided that approaches to my home airport in Nashville can only be flown via STARS (Standard Terminal Arrival Routes) and the last time I was in the muck trying to get home it suprised me by asking me to choose a STAR before it would load the approach. Not even knowing what approach fixes where in each STAR, I fiddled for a few minutes then just asked for a vector to final on the ILS from approach control, which they provided. Ended up just hand flying the ILS with traditional needle displays since the fancy WAAS GPS was completely rigid in its sequencing, and not useful at that point. Good thing I have hand flown that approach many many times.
So my assessment of the fancy electronics is that they are wonderful when everything is going according to plan, but have way too many subtle failure modes when the game changes and one has to make a new plan while hurtling along IMC at 200 mph. Yes, I will go back to school and figure out how to insert STARS into the flight planning, but remain suspicious of losing positional awareness when a surprise comes my way in an approach environment.
My friend Ham Cartwright put his superbly equipped RV-10 into the trees in Alabama last week, and took another friend of mine, Bob Lloyd to the great beyond with him. Ham's RV-10 had nearly identical avionics to mine: Dual GRT EFIS, TruTrak GSVG, though with a Garmin 430W instead of a 480. The sad radar track on flightaware.com of his last flight sure has the signature wandering of an IFR flight that has gotten seriously lost and disoriented. Sure hope he wasn't fiddling with the fancy boxes trying to reprogram them as they hit.
Stay safe, friends.
-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD
RV-7A N747DL
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wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: RV safety |
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Hi Dan,
I'm not familiar with the GRT system, but with the Chelton's when you are loading an approach into your flight plan it allows you to select VTF vectors to final. Does the GRT possible have that option somewhere inside it? Also I think on the Chelton you can temporarily select OBS or heading bug mode for vectors and then switch back to the approach at the appropriate time.
Wayne Edgerton N602WT
Time: 10:36:09 AM PST US From: Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net (dmasys(at)cox.net)> Subject: Re: RV safety
With the latest database update on the GNS480 it suddenly decided that approaches
to my home airport in Nashville can only be flown via STARS (Standard Terminal
Arrival Routes) and the last time I was in the muck trying to get home it
suprised me by asking me to choose a STAR before it would load the approach.
Not even knowing what approach fixes where in each STAR, I fiddled for a few minutes
then just asked for a vector to final on the ILS from approach control,
which they provided. Ended up just hand flying the ILS with traditional needle
displays since the fancy WAAS GPS was completely rigid in its sequencing, and
not useful at that point. Good thing I have hand flown that approach many
many times.
So my assessment of the fancy electronics is that they are wonderful when everything
is going according to plan, but have way too many subtle failure modes when
the game changes and one has to make a new plan while hurtling along IMC at
200 mph. Yes, I will go back to school and figure out how to insert STARS into
the flight planning, but remain suspicious of losing positional awareness
when a surprise comes my way in an approach environment.
[quote][b]
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: RV safety |
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Someone will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but Wayne, I think
the issue is that if you use a GRT, the approaches and
all of that stuff is not actually *IN* the EFIS, it's just
displaying things from a 430/530(W)/480 and flying it. So if
you want to play with course changes and stuff, you have to
do it on those instruments. And, as you've found by now, the
stuff you're using is very quick and intuitive, so things like
the VTF and HDG selection are very quick and easy to use and
you get the benefit of having the whole approach displayed
on the MFD to see it all happen. So where you had to spend
your time learning the EFIS, they have to focus on learning
the GPS/NAV/COM plus the methods to display it on the EFIS.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Wayne Edgerton wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Dan,
I'm not familiar with the GRT system, but with the Chelton's when you
are loading an approach into your flight plan it allows you to select
VTF vectors to final. Does the GRT possible have that option somewhere
inside it? Also I think on the Chelton you can temporarily select OBS or
heading bug mode for vectors and then switch back to the approach at
the appropriate time.
Wayne Edgerton N602WT
*Time: * */10:36:09 AM PST US/*
*From: * */Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net <mailto:dmasys(at)cox.net>>/*
*Subject: * /*_Re: RV safety_*/
With the latest database update on the GNS480 it suddenly decided
that approaches
to my home airport in Nashville can only be flown via STARS
(Standard Terminal
Arrival Routes) and the last time I was in the muck trying to get
home it
suprised me by asking me to choose a STAR before it would load the
approach.
Not even knowing what approach fixes where in each STAR, I fiddled
for a few minutes
then just asked for a vector to final on the ILS from approach
control,
which they provided. Ended up just hand flying the ILS with
traditional needle
displays since the fancy WAAS GPS was completely rigid in its
sequencing, and
not useful at that point. Good thing I have hand flown that
approach many
many times.
So my assessment of the fancy electronics is that they are
wonderful when everything
is going according to plan, but have way too many subtle failure
modes when
the game changes and one has to make a new plan while hurtling
along IMC at
200 mph. Yes, I will go back to school and figure out how to
insert STARS into
the flight planning, but remain suspicious of losing positional
awareness
when a surprise comes my way in an approach environment.
*
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rene(at)felker.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: RV safety |
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Wayne, I just started to really figure out my GRT system, but what I think is happening is that Dan and me are using the 480 (430 in my case) to enter the flight plan and “execute” the approach. I know on the 430 I just select the approach and then hit vectors to final, set the GRT to heading mod (heading bug) and arm the system for the approach. The only thing I have tested it on has been an ILS and once I get within 2.5 degrees of the localizer course, the system automatically switches to nav mod and tracks the localizer. Pretty cool for a guy who has never really had an autopilot before and never flown a coupled approach.
It looks like the way the 480 handles the approaches into Nashiville has changed in the 480?
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:19 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV safety
Hi Dan,
I'm not familiar with the GRT system, but with the Chelton's when you are loading an approach into your flight plan it allows you to select VTF vectors to final. Does the GRT possible have that option somewhere inside it? Also I think on the Chelton you can temporarily select OBS or heading bug mode for vectors and then switch back to the approach at the appropriate time.
Wayne Edgerton N602WT
Time:
10:36:09 AM PST US
From:
Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net (dmasys(at)cox.net)>
Subject:
Re: RV safety
With the latest database update on the GNS480 it suddenly decided that approaches
to my home airport in Nashville can only be flown via STARS (Standard Terminal
Arrival Routes) and the last time I was in the muck trying to get home it
suprised me by asking me to choose a STAR before it would load the approach.
Not even knowing what approach fixes where in each STAR, I fiddled for a few minutes
then just asked for a vector to final on the ILS from approach control,
which they provided. Ended up just hand flying the ILS with traditional needle
displays since the fancy WAAS GPS was completely rigid in its sequencing, and
not useful at that point. Good thing I have hand flown that approach many
many times.
So my assessment of the fancy electronics is that they are wonderful when everything
is going according to plan, but have way too many subtle failure modes when
the game changes and one has to make a new plan while hurtling along IMC at
200 mph. Yes, I will go back to school and figure out how to insert STARS into
the flight planning, but remain suspicious of losing positional awareness
when a surprise comes my way in an approach environment.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: RV safety |
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Guys and Gals...you may want to read that manual very carefully before launching and trying to learn by flying...you'll spend too much heads down time...most systems have a simulator mode or stand alone software simulators...you might want to find a way to plug in your system on the ground and use the simulator there so that when you get airborn spending fuel you're not waiting time and altitude cranking dials and flipping screens learning...and please consider taking along a safety pilot when out with your big screens practicing...hopefully someone with TAA experience.
P
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: RV safety |
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It may be about time to remind ourselves of a prime directive .
If I can't fly IFR/IMC without the Autopilot, then I can't fly IFR.
I agree with RV Safety; learn how to tell the electronics how to do what you want/need, don't depend on a working autopilot to do the job for you.
Take a look at www.flightaware.com (IFR plans and some flight following) and stick in an N number of interest. Watch the groundspeed and altitude excursions. Changes of 30-40 knots and 1000+ feet between minutes may indicate a hand flyer who is not current to fly IFR without an autopilot ( or less likely very turbulent air and the PIC has requested the block altitude).
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:05 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV safety
Guys and Gals...you may want to read that manual very carefully before launching and trying to learn by flying...you'll spend too much heads down time...most systems have a simulator mode or stand alone software simulators...you might want to find a way to plug in your system on the ground and use the simulator there so that when you get airborn spending fuel you're not waiting time and altitude cranking dials and flipping screens learning...and please consider taking along a safety pilot when out with your big screens practicing...hopefully someone with TAA experience.
P
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: RV safety |
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I know you're correct on being proficient on hand flying the approaches...but going out and learning new electronics while flying is a bit crazy to me...one spends way too much head down time reading, selecting and looking for buttons/switches/and moving screens about...sort not the time to learn with your head down...makes one run into the ground or another plane a real possibility.
It took me a couple of days in class, studying and sitting on the ground to learn the G 1000 and autopilot system plus all the new places for radio and phone on the audio panel presentation...if one were moving at 170kts you'll cover a few miles in a minute while you glance down...it's really hard to believe all the information you can go through quickly and what it takes to find exactly what you want get it displayed and inserted into your flight plan. It's pretty easy to fumble around for a few minutes...if you're going the Garmin approach..you may want to look at their FITS program.
P
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: RV safety |
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Does anyone know of a simulator for the GRT system? It would be great to
practice on the ground, without burning avgas!
Thanks
Sam Marlow
GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Guys and Gals...you may want to read that manual very carefully before
launching and trying to learn by flying...you'll spend too much heads
down time...most systems have a simulator mode or stand alone software
simulators...you might want to find a way to plug in your system on
the ground and use the simulator there so that when you get airborn
spending fuel you're not waiting time and altitude cranking dials and
flipping screens learning...and please consider taking along a safety
pilot when out with your big screens practicing...hopefully someone
with TAA experience.
P
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance
<http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850>.
*
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bcondrey
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: RV safety |
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There is apparently a way to interface it into MS Flight Simulator
called GRTBridge. I haven't done it but there's plenty of discussion on
the GRT Yahoo forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS/
Click on "Messages" and then search for "simulator" and pretty quick.
Bob
--
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