Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Yak 52 Bad Habits?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Ben Marsh wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   *Incidentally, I had occasion to fly with my friend Brian Sanders on

 Saturday in the only flying T-MK-20 Sea Fury with a Bristol Centaurus. 

 This was my second flight in the airplane.  


	


Wow! You must be in the area. I haven't tried to get Brian to give me a

hop. Heck, I haven't been over to Eagle's Nest since I headed for the

islands.



If you are indeed in the area, let's get together and fly.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

ben(at)designselect.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

I've been working with Dennis on his N3N project for 3.5 year, nearly every

Saturday.  I've been working on my -55 project in the shop for over a year.

And, I've crewed for Sanders at the races now for 8 years.  The Sanders

family are kind and important friends.  I am blessed.



--

N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

In a message dated 2/27/2006 2:47:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoint.usmc.mil writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  ALL OF YOU "FLIGHT SUIT OR DIE" folks, GO READ THE ARTICLE IN SPORT    AEROBATICS 	


 

 Which month?????   

 Tom Elliott  

CJ-6 NX63727

Sandy Valley  NV

3L2

702-723-1223

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Well,

 See the flt suit issue is still alive. Damned horse won't stay in the hole!

 Ok, since it was brought up..one other reason to wear something with secure pockets, itsto keep unwanted objects from wondering around in the empenage.

 Flight suits have nice pockets that do that. Of course, the other option is empty all your pockets out before you fly. Lastly, the leg pocket is a great place for a wallet so you do not have to sit on it cross country or during your hour or so sortie for whatever. Now for those of you that carry a purse, well that is another matter.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Can anyone just scan it and include it  on the list. Since I am not an sport aerobatics subscriber.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

mjbjhf(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Great Idea Doc, somebody get busy so Doc and I can read it!

 Michael

 [quote]   ---

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

I've emailed IAC to see if they can email me an electronic version of the article or post it on IAC web site. 

Steve

On Feb 28, 2006, at 8:33 AM, Michael Bolton wrote:

[quote]Great Idea Doc, somebody get busy so Doc and I can read it!

Michael

[quote]---

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Take a look here http://www.beasafepilot.com/equipment.htm Spencer  posts basically the same information. He also, and I know I am going to regret  this, but he also tackles the flight helmet issue on the same page.  

  

 If the flight suits are  the dead horse then the helmets are the Hyracotherium (see  picture).

  

 Alternatively you could  join IAC.

  

 Gus



 [quote]         From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael    Bolton

Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:33 AM

To:    yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Yak 52 Bad    Habits?

   

   Great Idea Doc, somebody get busy so Doc and I can read it!

   Michael

   [quote]     ---

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

The flight suit portion of this piece is pretty much the same article word for word.

Steve

On Feb 28, 2006, at 8:48 AM, Fraser, Gus wrote:

[quote] Take a look here http://www.beasafepilot.com/equipment.htm Spencer posts basically the same information. He also, and I know I am going to regret this, but he also tackles the flight helmet issue on the same page. 

  

 If the flight suits are the dead horse then the helmets are the Hyracotherium (see picture).

  

 Alternatively you could join IAC.

  

 Gus



 [quote]      From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com   [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Michael   Bolton

Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:33 AM

To:   yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Yak 52 Bad   Habits?

  

  Great Idea Doc, somebody get busy so Doc and I can read it!

  Michael

  [quote]    ---

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Well, I read the article and it doesn't cite any studies - whereas the USAF states the following:



"Prior to the early 1970's, there was a 40% thermal morbidity and mortality due to post-crash fire in otherwise survivable rotary-wing mishaps. Intensive research and development followed by installation of crashworthy fuel systems and issue of Nomex clothing has reduced the thermal injury rate in survivable aviation rotary-wing mishaps to nearly 0%."



Who do you trust more?



Furthermore the article seems to focus on a fuel-soaked flight suit from a fuel tank rupture in the cockpit (in a Pitts or similar aircraft).  In this case there is no difference between nomex and cotton.



There is however a big difference in how they behave in a high temperature environment.  Ask any firefighter about that.



Bottom line is that you're better off with your $15 eBay nomex flight suit than your $55 worth of cotton jeans and t-shirt.

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Ok... I'm an idiot.  Just thought I would save everyone else the trouble of saying so.     

Scooter, ("Scooter" <yakk52(at)verizon.net>) said:    

Scooter:  Well, I read the article and it doesn't cite any studies -    

mgb replies: Excuse me, it cited studies that gave the specific safety rating of every single type of material used, and how long they would prevent a person from receiving a second degree burn.  It showed how the degree of fire protection could be vastly increased by the use of modern day and available materials.    

Scooter says:  whereas the USAF states the following: "Prior to the early 1970's, there was a 40% thermal morbidity and mortality due to post-crash fire in otherwise survivable rotary-wing mishaps. Intensive research and development followed by installation of crashworthy fuel systems and issue of Nomex clothing has reduced the thermal injury rate in survivable aviation rotary-wing mishaps to nearly 0%."\  

mgb replies: First, I do not fly a helicopter.  And excuse my sarcasm, but I am not aware of anyone on this list that owns a YAK or CJ helicopter.    

Scooter says: Who do you trust more?   

mgb replies:  I trust the most recent article that discusses the best method of protecting myself in the type of aircraft I fly.  I also admit that I never put blanket trust in anyone or anything, least of all articles written by the Air Force that discuss findings from rotary wing accidents, when I am not flying a rotary wing aircraft.    

Scooter says: Furthermore the article seems to focus on a fuel-soaked flight suit from a fuel tank rupture in the cockpit (in a Pitts or similar aircraft).  In this case there is no difference between nomex and cotton.  

mgb replies:  You took the words right out of my mouth.  I do fly an aircraft with the fuel directly between my legs.  Thus, I am concerned about the difference between urban legend and real world situations identical to the ones I experience.    

Scooter says:  There is however a big difference in how they behave in a high temperature environment.  Ask any firefighter about that.  

mgb replies:  I am not fighting fires.  I am not a firefighter.  Thus I do not need to ask them anything.  If the need for protection from heat becomes a factor in my airplane, it is not because the cockpit heating system "ran away".  The YAK-50 does not even have cockpit heat.  Instead it is because there is a source of heat from fire.  If there is a fire, there is a 99% chance that it is coming from fuel.. which is flowing all over me.     

Scooter says: Bottom line is that you're better off with your $15 eBay nomex flight suit than your $55 worth of cotton jeans and t-shirt.  

mgb replies:  It amazes me how the price of Nomex Flight Suits are continuing to drop on ebay as this whole discussion continues.  Scooter, find me a flight suit on EBAY that fits me for $15, and I will pay you $150... and you can keep the difference.   That's a public statement and you have my word on it.  Let me know when you need my measurements.    

And... my bottom line is that you are actually wrong.   My $55 cotton jeans and tea-shirt will protect me just as well as a Nomex Flight Suit from 30 gallons of fuel that burst into flame in my cockpit.  My jeans and tea-shirt will also go a lot further to prevent thermal stress and dehydration.    

And the only bottom line that really matters:  You and I and everyone else will continue to wear whatever we want when flying our own airplanes in these United States of America, and I think that is a good thing.   It is not my place OR YOURS, or ANYONE ELSE'S to point fingers at other people and imply they are less intelligent than the next guy or gal when it comes to what they wear when flying their own airplane.    

I will continue to reject any person or organization that tries to impose their will upon me (or anyone else) and then excuse their own behavior in the name of "safety", when legitimate direct published examples prove otherwise.

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Hey, this is fun.  I can't help but envision RPA events divided into two groups of combatants.  Little guys in nomex fighting big guys in "tea shirts" (whatever they are) who are ripping off their patches and trying to light their nomex on fire.  



First off, I read the article in the link that was posted which gave no evidence supporting his assertion that nomex and cotton gave equal protection.  He seems to think that the only post crash fire scenario involves a fuel-soaked pilot.  This is just not the case.  It's not the case in aircraft or in helicopters.  It's more likely in a Yak-50, etc. so why don't we just forget about them and focus on Yak-52's and CJ6's?  A Yak-50 pilot should probably wear additional protection like Gus in his Sukhoi.



Second, your cotton clothing is going to ignite at 482 degrees.  In a post crash fire (that doesn't engulf you) it might take you a few seconds to get away from the heat source.  You will burst into flames at 482 degrees whereas the guy in the nomex (with patches and cute nametag) will not.  Seems simple to me.  



Of course, there are a million scenarios.  But if it works for the armed services then it works for me.  And in the interest of promoting safety I don't think we should belittle pilots who wear flight suits - or trash organizations that enforce the wearing of flight suits.  As much as you hate to admit it a bunch of PHDs and statisticians working for Uncle Sam say it's a good thing.  If you can prove otherwise then I'll accept it.  If you can't then I won't.  We're not top gun wannabes; we just don't want to burst into flame at 482 degrees.



There are a bunch of flight suits on ebay for cheap for any of you that want them.  Search on "Flight suit".  You can get a decent used suit for $10 to $15 (might have an ink stain or a rip) - $40 for a premium suit.  The trick is to start bidding about ten seconds before the auction ends.



Now, let's be friends, I never called anyone an idiot.



 	  BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi wrote: 	
		  Ok... I'm an idiot.ï¿½ Just thought I would save everyone else the trouble of saying so.ï¿½    

Scooter, ("Scooter" <yakk52(at)verizon.net>) said:    

en legitimate direct published examples prove otherwise.ï¿½ï¿½ [/b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum