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billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.



Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always override the rudder trim.  Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.  



I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with  my feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.



The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a brick wall and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.



Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose when I  encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort.  In the future, I do not know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this situation.



The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking  motion with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.

   

  The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind does adapt.



Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.

   

  Bill and Sara DeRouchey

N939SB, flying

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msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Bill, very simple and crude indeed but it’s a bit refreshing to see a straight forward approach to this problem.  Being a very visual person, it’s the first design in a while I could picture in my head just from reading the description of it.  I may shamelessly steal this idea. J  Do you feel you can “override” the clamping force with a firm push if need be?   

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

     

After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.

 

 Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always override the rudder trim.  Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.  

 

 I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.

 

 The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a brick wall and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.

 

 Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort.  In the future, I do not know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this situation.

 

 The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Michael, 

Afet to talking to Bill this weekend and seeing the setup, you would bend the tunnel before overriding the clamp...Bill seelmed to think you couldn't do it but I may be speaking out of turn and should wait for him to reply. 

Rick Sked

---

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Bill  

   

I think it is a great idea but I think it has some safety issues that need to be discussed.  Being some one who has been just about inverted by clear air turbulence, I don’t like the idea of any flight control being locked in flight.  If you have ever had a serious up set in flight it is all you can do to react correctly let alone unlocking a flight control during the upset.  

   

Any one thinking about this mod might want to think about this seriously.  

   

That’s my 2 cents worth.  

   

   

     

John G. Cumins  

President  

   

JC'S Interactive Systems  

2499 B1 Martin Rd  

Fairfield Ca 94533  

707-425-7100  

707-425-7576 Fax  

   

Your Total Technology Solution Provider  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 11:18 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

   

   Bill, very simple and crude indeed but it’s a bit refreshing to see a straight forward approach to this problem.  Being a very visual person, it’s the first design in a while I could picture in my head just from reading the description of it.  I may shamelessly steal this idea. J  Do you feel you can “override” the clamping force with a firm push if need be?   

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

     

After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.

 

 Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always override the rudder trim.  Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.  

 

 I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.

 

 The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a brick wall and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.

 

 Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort.  In the future, I do not know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this situation.

 

 The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.  

    

   

    

The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind does adapt.

 

 Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.  

    

   

    

Bill and Sara DeRouchey

 N939SB, flying  

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VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Bill 

        thankyou for  sharing your info with us. I am a bit concerned about the safety factor of it  being locked in as even the auto pilot can be over ridden with force. I think  there are to many "what ifs" for a critical control to be locked in even one  side.

 I would definitly take it out if you sold the  plane. 

 On our 6 we just riveted a simple bent piece of  aloy set up for cruise speed and painted the same as the rudder. Worked fine and  failsafe.

  

 Thanks again Bill and I am sure others will have  ideas to and will probably disagree with me but thats what the list is for ,  throwing ideas around.

  

 regards Chris 388

  

 VH-ICY waiting to be signed off

 [quote]   ---

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

I wouldn't discard the idea/design too soon. Bill and I also discussed 

the 'locking' issue. He's well aware of  it. I believe he said that in 

his admittedly limited experience flying with it, that he felt that the 

ability to 'unlock' the control was so direct and immediate as to make 

it less of a risk/concern for him. Additionally, I would expect that 

after your plane is tested and rigged  the need for variable rudder trim 

only occurs during limited portions of the flight. reducing (but NOT 

eliminating the risk factor).  I suppose it to be similar to the 

friction lock on the throttle.  Electrically activated trim systems also 

have a risk factor associated with runaway.

Now with that said, I'm sure there are those that will still be 

uncomfortable with a 'locked' control.  There are at least to viable 

spring biased designs I've seen, (Al Gardners & Jason Kreidler plus the 

'Vic Syracuse solution.  I'm only speculating, but _conceptually_ I 

believe that it should be possible to work with Bill's design to achieve 

a variable clamping force sufficient to hold the desired amount of trim, 

and still allow for some 'breakout force' to overcome the friction. 

During our discussion Bill mentioned that he had machined/fabricated a 

slightly curved surface between the to clamp halves to act in somewhat 

of a rocker fashion to enable the clamping action. It may mean 

experimenting with some different clamping material, and different 

amounts of 'curve'. Another idea would be to incorporate a compression 

spring on the end of the other bolt and nut. Some epxerimenting with the 

size and strength of the spring would be required, but it would allow 

for the clamp to 'float' under variable pressure?????????  I've got to 

believe that the right combination of materials and camber would allow 

for setting enough friction to hold the desired trim and still override 

if necessary.  Anybody got any suggestions?  I also believe that the use 

of a finer thread on the control knob may allow for more precise control 

of the clamping pressure.



My 2 cents.



Deems Davis # 406

'Its all done....Its just not put together'

http://deemsrv10.com/

 	  Quote: 	
		   *



 *

n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Bill, after seeing this at the NW RV-10 dinner, I'd say  it's an interesting idea for a gust lock, but I would recommend against it  as a rudder trim mechanism.  God forbid you got into an unusual attitude  quickly, such as might happen when you have your friendly 757 fly over you as  you transit B airspace.  I was traveling in a 757 two weekends ago and  got rocked, and I mean thank goodness I had my seatbelt on type of rocked, by  what I think were wing tip vortices.  If I were in an RV at the time, no  matter which type, it might have been flipped in seconds.  No, I'd want my  rudders available at all times.  

  

 Just my 2 Pfennig's worth.  

  

 John Jessen

  

 do not archive



 [quote]         From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill    DeRouchey

Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 11:22 AM

To:    rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Low Tech Rudder    Trim

   

   After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a    while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex    designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various    reasons.



Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering    solution is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small    trailing tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder    pedals can always override the rudder trim.  Secondly, I expect my    idea to be rejected many in the list because it will be judged    as crude, however, a simple design can be elegant in its    simplicity.  



I chose to not cut into my beautifully    painted rudder and opt for a less proper engineering solution. What I    have devised is to modify the rudder cable nylon fairleads just in front of    the fuel switch valve to also pinch the cable when a screw clamp is tightened.    I set the rudder trim with my feet then pinch one or both cables.    See attachments for a visual. There are some tricks to get this very    simple design to work properly.



The big negative (in my mind) with this    approach is I did not want to get caught with the rudder locked when I needed    it. The imagined solution was to handle it with procedures kicking the rudder    before takeoff and when beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue    became moot since my feet instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to    the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately. My feet feel    they are pushing against a brick wall and the release knobs are    within inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are    tightened.



Two additional good features were observed. When parked it    becomes a great gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10    dinner the yaw ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the    cable locks were loose when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north    of Redding CA. We yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per    cable). The yawing diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting    effort.  In the future, I do not know if I will lock the rudder during    turbulence or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this    situation.



The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got    it about right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a    AN3 anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable    tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard    nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector    switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n    KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the    mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down .015    to .020. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its fulcrum to    create the pinching force.

    

   The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version    by maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is    not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind    does adapt.



Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman    and others for a delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I    see Deems.

    

   Bill and Sara DeRouchey

N939SB,  flying



[b]

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

There is a certain minimalist elegance to this that frees up the brain 

cells a bit.  I'm thinking of it as a gust lock for a personal, 

experimental aircraft that happens to work quite well as an ad hoc 

rudder trim.  The '10 does need a gust lock it seems...



We've got a floppy rudder that needs a lock and a trimmer.  Hmmmm.  I 

think I'm going to tear the floorboards out of the Maule and take a look 

at it's trim system just for grins.



Bill "door bonding" Watson

Durham NC



Bill DeRouchey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a 

 while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several 

 complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various 

 reasons.



 Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution 

 is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing 

 tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals 

 can always override the rudder trim.  Secondly, I expect my idea to be 

 rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude, 

 however, a simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Many of you folks have the same concern as I have with this implementation. Yet I made this modification to our RV-10 to observe the good and bad things and hopefully design out the bad in the next revision. So far, its worked better than I anticipated and other unforseen good features have arisen. When this happens I get encouraged.

   

  A few comments:

   

  Only one screw needs to be tightened during cruise. The clamp is not used for climbing nor decending.

   

  I carefully choose a strong metal star wheel with deep tangs that fit my fingers to apply force if necessary. The range between tight and loose is approximately 1.5 turns and in a normal cockpit situation I tighten or release it in just under 3 seconds. 

   

  I have not determined if the screw can be tightened such that the rudder will not move and still be overridden by the  pedals.

   

  I am very interested in Bill Watson's investigation of his Maule, as it has a rudder locking mechanism of some sort.

   

  The RV10 may roll like the RV7 or 8. My guys tell me they routinely perform acrobatics with their feet on the floor so I wonder how much of the rudder would be actually needed with turbulence. I keep my feet on the pedals during turbulence but don't know if I really need the rudder.

   

  Lets use our energy to address the main issue and add pilot override into the design.  Revision B could be designed with an automatic slip or limited tension or something else I have not thought of. This is where knowledgable people and good thinking can work.  

   

  I will pursue this with or without the Matronics folks. For me, experimental is fun. Thanks for the comments and cares. I am not a wild man and do care  about my health, my passengers health and everyone flying.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

   



MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: MauleDriver 



There is a certain minimalist elegance to this that frees up the brain 

cells a bit. I'm thinking of it as a gust lock for a personal, 

experimental aircraft that happens to work quite well as an ad hoc 

rudder trim. The '10 does need a gust lock it seems...



We've got a floppy rudder that needs a lock and a trimmer. Hmmmm. I 

think I'm going to tear the floorboards out of the Maule and take a look 

at it's trim system just for grins.



Bill "door bonding" Watson

Durham NC



Bill DeRouchey wrote:

[quote] After showing Deems this setup [quote][b]

mikedoble(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Interesting idea.  Just a note, the Cessna 400 (former Columbia 400) has a “rudder hold” switch next to the flap lever.  I flew the 400 twice last week for a total of about an hour and the “rudder hold seems to work nice.  How did they do it?   Anyone know?  

   

Mike  

   

Do not archive  

   

Mike Doble  

Builder 40691  

Working on my tail.....STILL  

Waukesha, Wisconsin  

   

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

     

After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. I thought of several complex designs using spring bias and scrapped them all due to various reasons.

 

 Lets start with two statements. First, the proper engineering solution is cutting into the rudder and installing a servo and a small trailing tab. This approach has a built-in failsafe in that the rudder pedals can always override the rudder trim.  Secondly, I expect my idea to be rejected many in the list because it will be judged as crude, however, a simple design can be elegant in its simplicity.  

 

 I chose to not cut into my beautifully painted rudder and opt for a less proper engineering solution. What I have devised is to modify the rudder cable nylon fairleads just in front of the fuel switch valve to also pinch the cable when a screw clamp is tightened. I set the rudder trim with my feet then pinch one or both cables. See attachments for a visual. There are some tricks to get this very simple design to work properly.

 

 The big negative (in my mind) with this approach is I did not want to get caught with the rudder locked when I needed it. The imagined solution was to handle it with procedures kicking the rudder before takeoff and when beginning decent. As I began to fly, this issue became moot since my feet instantly sensed the lock when they are applied to the pedals and my mind learned how to react immediately. My feet feel they are pushing against a brick wall and the release knobs are within inches of my hand. Typically, only one of the knobs are tightened.

 

 Two additional good features were observed. When parked it becomes a great gust lock for the rudder. Also, on my way to the NW RV-10 dinner the yaw ball was centered, my feet were on the floor, and the cable locks were loose when I encountered turbulence as the terrain rose north of Redding CA. We yawed around a bit then I locked both clamps (one per cable). The yawing diminshed about 80% and reduced my piloting effort.  In the future, I do not know if I will lock the rudder during turbulence or use my feet. Need more experimentation in this situation.

 

 The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.  

    

   

    

The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind does adapt.

 

 Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.  

    

   

    

Bill and Sara DeRouchey

 N939SB, flying  

  

       [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would we

consider it in the experimental? Vic is correct that the proper way to do it

is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all

times with your feet flat on the floor. If you can accept using your feet

during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab

riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise

airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots

use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Michael, when I first heard Bill tell of them, they were to serve as Rudder locks.  they are simple and easy to retro.  Here is the picture I stole as Deems was still cornering Bill on the sideline.  

   

John C.  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 12:18 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

  

   

   Bill, very simple and crude indeed but it’s a bit refreshing to see a straight forward approach to this problem.  Being a very visual person, it’s the first design in a while I could picture in my head just from reading the description of it.  I may shamelessly steal this idea. J  Do you feel you can “override” the clamping force with a firm push if need be?   

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:22 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

     

After showing Deems this setup at a great RV-10 NW dinner and flying a while to prove its worth I am ready to go public. 

 The original design is pictured in the attachment and I got it about right. After these pics were taken I replaced the Nylox nut with a AN3 anchor nut (AN366F style probably best) to adjust the clamp loose cable tension without removing the tunnel cover. Also, I reduced the outboard nylon block thickness to 3/8" to route the cable around the fuel selector switch. Probably should have been 5/16". The knob is a Reid Supply Co p/n KA-1. Clamp the two nylon blocks together and drill an 1/8" hole through the mating surface. Then mill the thick block with the half hole surface down .015 to .020. This will create a rocking motion with the cable as its fulcrum to create the pinching force.  

    

   

    

The pedal force will be heavier than the incredibly light stock version by maybe two times due to the drag of the fairlead. After 3 or 4 flights it is not noticable because the nylon fairlead begins to smooth out and the mind does adapt.

 

 Thanks to John Jessen, John Cox, Rob & Jenny Hickman and others for a delightful afternoon. Of course, its always a good day when I see Deems.  

    

   

    

Bill and Sara DeRouchey

 N939SB, flying

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

One other note about the worries of runaway trim with a servo controlled

trim tab....  If you build the tab as Vic did, it's very unlikely that

you'll get enough force and deflection to do anything but adjust the

trim....and if it ran away on you, it would be very easy to hold pedal

pressure against full out-of-trim.  This is a huge contrast to the

elevator, where you may not be able to hold the plane in control if

you had runaway elevator trim.  A plain old bendable trim tab, or

tapered block is an acceptable basic trim alternate for those who

are squeamish of doing anything to the rudder.  And, rudder gust locks

are cheap and easy to fashion.



Regarding locking the rudder in place....keep in mind the extent at

which some people even argue against using a seatbelt as an elevator

gust lock....and the not-too-far in the past crash at a flyin that

happened because someone "forgot" to remove the belt.  I'd really

hate to see someone rolling down the runway in a crosswind or even

just taxiing in a row of planes, and suddenly realize that they have

their pedals locked.  But, to each his own I guess...we're allowed to

build to a higher or lower standard of safety as we see fit.  At

least there are options.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

David McNeill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would we

 consider it in the experimental? Vic is correct that the proper way to do it

 is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all

 times with your feet flat on the floor. If you can accept using your feet

 during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab

 riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise

 airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots

 use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

I agree with Bill,  

We spoke quite a bit Saturday evening about the downside of the design, he is well aware of the things that could go wrong with the system and has thought out the problems that could arise. He is not one to go off half cocked, as a matter of fact he was getting ready for the flak about the shortcomings of his design after it became public. It is a checklist item for him, this is experimental. I'm not sure anyone else could come up with a horror scenario that he has not already thought through. I watched he and his wife take off that evening, after seeing them together there is no way he would jeopardize his safety, let alone that of his wife and family. 

Rick Sked 

40185 

do not archive

---

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:54 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment ..... like mine.  Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off because of the fires in Palm Bay (FL).  It was just a hotter day for me!   

 David McNeill wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> (dlm46007(at)cox.net)



This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would we

consider it in the experimental? 	
 Because that's where all the innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an 'original' idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and friction stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved.

    	  Quote: 	
		   Vic is correct that the proper way to do it

is the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at all

times with your feet flat on the floor. 	
 	
 Proper???  Whose doing the rating???  I think 'one way' or 'a complex way' or some other description would be better than 'proper'.  This suggests that all other solutions are 'improper'.

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		   If you can accept using your feet

during takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab

riveted to the rudder trailing edge will do the job at your standard cruise

airspeed. If you want to be driver try a ferrari or a jet, airplane pilots

use their feet. We have settled on the rudder fixed trim tab.

  	
 	
 Well, good for you.  I, for one, don't want to be an aeronautical engineer nor test pilot, nor play one on TV  because TV is a possible place to end up when the test pilot finds out that that extra mass of the moveable rudder trim effected the flutter speed.  If Vans thought it was 1:  necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an option at the very least.  Don't get me wrong here, this isn't a flame ..... just another point of view.  I don't have enough experience to know how many four place airplanes in our size/weight category have or don't have rudder trim.  I do know that the few four place airplanes I've flown didn't have rudder trim.   Now I'm in the spot of trying to decide whether I want to cut up my already-completed rudder to install rudder trim.  Along with trying to figure out what I want in the panel.

 

 Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!!  :-\ 

 Linn

 do not archive .... too opinionated

 [quote]   [quote] --

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

“If Vans thought it was 1:  necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an option at the very least.”  

   

I chose to cut up my already completed rudder and install Vic’s solution.  Although I have not done a lot of cross country it is nice to be able to adjust the rudder for various speeds.  You don’t get much authority out of the trim, but it is enough to deal with the various cruise configurations.  

   

Now to get to the 1, 2, 3……..I have not put a lot of creditability into what Vans thinks is “necessary.”  I flew 410RV for my transition training and I am under the belief that an attitude indicator is necessary, really useful and a great idea to have in every airplane, even day VFR………but 410RV does not have one??  

   

As we march forward in our goal to make our perfect airplane each one of us must decide what is “necessary” for our flying.  I know I focused on two areas and put in a little redundancy….stalls and fuel.  I installed the standard stall warning, an AOA, the EFIS of course (2 ea), and a Trutrak ADI…..they all provide stall warning.  Fuel……float type fuel gages, flow meter and low fuel sensors in each tank.  If I inadvertently stall this airplane or run out of fuel………I deserve whatever I get…..  

   

Now, as far as the rudder trim…….I would say it is a great idea, but not necessary.  I may change my mind after a few long cross countries.  

   

I think the part of the building process I liked the most was being able to make the airplane fit my needs.  For example, my wife can not fly above 10K without getting airsick and since I live in Utah there are not to many places we can go and not get above 10K, so I put in a built in O2 system.  Not necessary, but a real great idea.  

   

The great thing about this forum is that we can freely express our ideas and each one of us can take away what we want and need.  People on the list do not want to start “wars”, but I think the “wars” are where the most divergent of ideas are expressed.  I am normally more of a lurker than a contributor but that is normally because the war is normally over before I even read the shot that started it.   

   

I for one, would not want to “lock” down my rudder cables, but that design has lead me to thinking about other options I did not consider before……….on my next plane maybe I can………  

     

Rene' Felker  

RV-10 N423CF Flying  

  

801-721-6080      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters

 Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:32 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

  

   

I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment .... like mine.  Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off because of the fires in Palm Bay (FL).  It was just a hotter day for me!  

 David McNeill wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would weconsider it in the experimental?Because that's where all the innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an 'original' idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and friction stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved. 	  Quote: 	
		   Vic is correct that the proper way to do itis the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at alltimes with your feet flat on the floor. 	
	
  

Proper???  Whose doing the rating???  I think 'one way' or 'a complex way' or some other description would be better than 'proper'.  This suggests that all other solutions are 'improper'.

 

    	  Quote: 	
		   If you can accept using your feetduring takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3  

Well, good for you.  I, for one, don't want to be an aeronautical engineer nor test pilot, nor play one on TV  because TV is a possible place to end up when the test pilot finds out that that extra mass of the moveable rudder trim effected the flutter speed.  If Vans thought it was 1:  necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an option at the very least.  Don't get me wrong here, this isn't a flame ..... just another point of view.  I don't have enough experience to know how many four place airplanes in our size/weight category have or don't have rudder trim.  I do know that the few four place airplanes I've flown didn't have rudder trim.   Now I'm in the spot of trying to decide whether I want to cut up my already-completed rudder to install rudder trim.  Along with trying to figure out what I want in the panel.

 

 Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!! :-\ 

 Linn

 do not archive .... too opinionated

 

    	  Quote: 	
		   	
4[quote]--

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Â  I think most people are having the â€œjust walked into a fartâ€ reaction (sorry but the analogy works ) and as such are dismissing it outright.Â  Nothing wrong with that as everyone has their own comfort level.Â  What I see is a very simple mechanical design that just needs a way to have a breakaway force release the cable and you have a system that is probably no more unsafe than electric trim but may have a few additional benefits.Â  I wouldnâ€™t recommend that anyone locks their rudder in flight as a matter of everyday use but as Bill has said, this is a Mark1 design for the testing and evolution of the design.Â  He knows the risks and is testing it to discover ways to mitigate them shortcomings.Â  So I think the goal here is to try and figure out the magic bullet to the design and Bill has been nice enough to share with us to hopefully benefit the group.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sked

 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:37 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV10-List: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

  

   

I agree with Bill,   

We spoke quite a bit Saturday evening about the downside of the design, he is well aware of the things that could go wrong with the system and has thought out the problems that could arise. He is not one to go off half cocked, as a matter of fact he was getting ready for the flak about the shortcomings of his design after it became public. It is a checklist item for him, this is experimental. I'm not sure anyone else could come up with a horror scenario that he has not already thought through. I watched he and his wife take off that evening, after seeing them together there is no way he would jeopardize his safety, let alone that of his wife and family.  

Rick Sked  

40185

 ---

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

I believe someone earlier in the thread had mentioned that Ken, not sure which, at Van’s said they didn’t add it because of concern over balance of the rudder.  So yes , there is some concern over adding an in rudder electric trim.  Whether or not it’s a well founded concern we don’t know.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters

 Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:32 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Low Tech Rudder Trim  

  

  

   

I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment .... like mine.  Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off because of the fires in Palm Bay (FL).  It was just a hotter day for me!  

 David McNeill wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would weconsider it in the experimental?Because that's where all the innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an 'original' idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and friction stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved. 	  Quote: 	
		   Vic is correct that the proper way to do itis the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at alltimes with your feet flat on the floor. 	
	
  

Proper???  Whose doing the rating???  I think 'one way' or 'a complex way' or some other description would be better than 'proper'.  This suggests that all other solutions are 'improper'.

 

    	  Quote: 	
		   If you can accept using your feetduring takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3  

Well, good for you.  I, for one, don't want to be an aeronautical engineer nor test pilot, nor play one on TV  because TV is a possible place to end up when the test pilot finds out that that extra mass of the moveable rudder trim effected the flutter speed.  If Vans thought it was 1:  necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an option at the very least.  Don't get me wrong here, this isn't a flame ..... just another point of view.  I don't have enough experience to know how many four place airplanes in our size/weight category have or don't have rudder trim.  I do know that the few four place airplanes I've flown didn't have rudder trim.   Now I'm in the spot of trying to decide whether I want to cut up my already-completed rudder to install rudder trim.  Along with trying to figure out what I want in the panel.

 

 Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!! :-\ 

 Linn

 do not archive .... too opinionated

 

    	  Quote: 	
		   	
4[quote]--

pascal(at)rv10builder.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Good points Rene.. I think there is some great  features in Bill's concept.. Scott mentioned the need for a good "rudder lock"  Bill's serves this well. Bill has a DR plan for unusual activity and in the  end  seems his concept fits his needs.

 I am still thinking less evasive rudder wedge at  this point as Scott S has said it fits his needs and it gives me the "feel" of  what works or doesn't when I finally get the plane off the ground but I am open  to ideas.

 I say kudos to Bill for thinking through a new  design.

 Pascal

  



  From: Rene Felker (rene(at)felker.com) 

 Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:26 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: RE: Low Tech Rudder Trim

 



  

“If Vans thought it was 1:  necessary 2: really useful  3: a great idea ...... then I think it would have been an option at the very  least.” 

  

I chose to cut up my already completed rudder and install  Vic’s solution.  Although I have not done a lot of cross country it is nice  to be able to adjust the rudder for various speeds.  You don’t get much  authority out of the trim, but it is enough to deal with the various cruise  configurations. 

  

Now to get to the 1, 2, 3……..I have not put a lot of  creditability into what Vans thinks is “necessary.”  I flew 410RV for my  transition training and I am under the belief that an attitude indicator  is necessary, really useful and a great idea to have in every airplane,  even day VFR………but 410RV does not have one?? 

  

As we march forward in our goal to make our perfect airplane  each one of us must decide what is “necessary” for our flying.  I know I  focused on two areas and put in a little redundancy….stalls and fuel.  I  installed the standard stall warning, an AOA, the EFIS of course (2 ea), and a  Trutrak ADI…..they all provide stall warning.  Fuel……float type fuel gages,  flow meter and low fuel sensors in each tank.  If I inadvertently stall  this airplane or run out of fuel………I deserve whatever I get….. 

  

Now, as far as the rudder trim…….I would say it is a great  idea, but not necessary.  I may change my mind after a few long cross  countries. 

  

I think the part of the building process I liked the most was  being able to make the airplane fit my needs.  For example, my wife can not  fly above 10K without getting airsick and since I live in Utah there are not to  many places we can go and not get above 10K, so I put in a built in O2  system.  Not necessary, but a real great idea. 

  

The great thing about this forum is that we can freely  express our ideas and each one of us can take away what we want and need.   People on the list do not want to start “wars”, but I think the “wars” are where  the most divergent of ideas are expressed.  I am normally more of a lurker  than a contributor but that is normally because the war is normally over before  I even read the shot that started it.  

  

I for one, would not want to “lock” down my rudder cables,  but that design has lead me to thinking about other options I did not consider  before……….on my next plane maybe I can……… 

   

Rene'  Felker 

RV-10  N423CF Flying

 

801-721-6080   

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn  Walters

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:32 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Low Tech Rudder  Trim



 

  

I'm sure there will be more opposing views for this comment  .... like mine.  Sorry for the slow reply, but they shut the power off  because of the fires in Palm Bay (FL).  It was just a hotter day for me!   

David McNeill wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> (dlm46007(at)cox.net) This solution would never be approved in the certified world so why would weconsider it in the experimental?Because that's where all the innovation is occurring. There hasn't been an 'original' idea in the certified aircraft (OK, I'll give you composites and friction stir welding)arena since the FAA (or CAA) got involved. 	  Quote: 	
		   Vic is correct that the proper way to do itis the electric trim in the rudder if you have to be able to fly at alltimes with your feet flat on the floor. 	
	
 

Proper???  Whose doing the rating???  I think 'one  way' or 'a complex way' or some other description would be better than  'proper'.  This suggests that all other solutions are  'improper'.



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you can accept using your feetduring takeoff and climb and during descent and landing then a fixed tab 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 

Well, good for you.  I, for one, don't want to be an  aeronautical engineer nor test pilot, nor play one on TV  because TV is a  possible place to end up when the test pilot finds out that that extra mass of  the moveable rudder trim effected the flutter speed.  If Vans thought it  was 1:  necessary 2: really useful 3: a great idea ...... then I think it  would have been an option at the very least.  Don't get me wrong here, this  isn't a flame ..... just another point of view.  I don't have enough  experience to know how many four place airplanes in our size/weight category  have or don't have rudder trim.  I do know that the few four place  airplanes I've flown didn't have rudder trim.   Now I'm in the spot of  trying to decide whether I want to cut up my already-completed rudder to install  rudder trim.  Along with trying to figure out what I want in the  panel.



Back in a minute .... I need something for my migraine!!! :-\ 

Linn

do not archive .... too  opinionated



 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4[quote]--

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Low Tech Rudder Trim

Along these lines I feel you should at least order two rudder wedges from Avery Tools and give it a try before trying anything more drastic. 

I never believed the plane would fly centered along such a wide range of airspeeds as it does.  

I now have over 25 hours using two full wedges and it works great.  If two wedges are too much for your aircraft simply cut them down until the ball is centered, then paint and you can attach them with silicon rubber.  Just tape them on overnight with silicon and they hold great and are still removable if you want to do something different down the road.  



The rudder lock has some promise, it is much like a throttle lock on a motorcycle that allows you to twist the throttle but takes all the pressure off your hand.

It really does not take  much force to keep the ball centered. In fact with the two wedges from Avery and with the little drag that the stock system has you can kick a little rudder and move the ball around in cruise flight.  



I got to fly for a couple hours with Steve Darton (Utah RV-10 Builder) in a new Cirrus G3 and was amazed they did not have rudder trim.

 

Scott Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

---

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