Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

More Fuel prices

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

I'll leave the politics alone other than to say that Money is the mother's milk of politics and the Oil companies have plenty of money...



When we talk of fuel prices, we are really talking about operations cost. HOW the airplane is operated and maintained can have an important effect on cost-of-operation. Good flight planning can work wonders, on cross counties, I call ahead for fuel prices, hours of operation, etc. NOT doing this has screwed my long cross countries more than once on ferry flights. Working winds aloft, etc, has always benefited my flights. standard stuff.



Now, pertaining to the Yak/CJ, I know from experience that there are tuning and operations tips that improve the CJ-6's miles-per-gallon. read my stuff in the RPA store for some of those tips. However, I don't know how much the Yak could benefit but I would love to work hands-on with a -52 to see what is possible. 



Craig Payne

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Craig,

The only thing that will make a YAK 52 more economical is to fold the feet into wells in the wings. So instead of having three huge parasites sitting there under the belly you have a clean air frame. Flush riveting would also streamline the airframe some too. Find a way to cool the engine without the gills being open is another way to speed her up to. Stripping a lot of the weight in the form of inverters, RU radios and instruments would also lighten her up. The glass panels like Dynon and Chelton's would offer a lot of info in a more compact unit for one tenth the wt. Pulling that 45 lb generator and all the miles of electrical wiring out would also lighten up the A/C to. Installing a fuel flow monitor would also help you determine the best throttle setting for the best fuel economy.

My Yak 50 weighs nearly 1000 lb less than the 52. I've done most of the above to her. Have not stripped out the wiring yet but waiting for an excuse. She is one of the flush riveted models. Although her feet do not fold completely into the wing, they are a hell of a lot more streamlined than the 52's. Close the gills almost shut on a really cold day and she cruises 5-6 knots faster. While the 52s chug along at 65% and 700 mmHg indicating 130 kts, I'm throttled back at 60% and 600 mmHg still having to do S turns to stay with them. The whole time they are burning 15 gal/hr at those settings, I'm showing a fuel flow of 11.3 gal/ hour at the above settings. The FS 450 has been a huge asset in monitoring fuel consumption along with increasing the gallons per mile!

Those are just my humble observations on things that could clean up the 52 and make her more "green".

Doc



--

pilko2(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

I'd like to see the weigh check that proves your '50 is 1000 lbs less than a 

'52 !

---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Actually, according to specs, the 50 is 893 LBS, (US) or 405 kg lighter than 

a 52.  Not that far off.

Dennis



---

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Ok guys... Lets be honest..  You own a warbird.. They are not fast, they are

not economical , they are fun and we love them.



We can kid ourselves all we want.. "If I buy that JPI ( $800 ), then I will

know the best power setting to save fuel ( $800 worth? Hehe ) , Like doc

said.. If I install $3000 worth of newer electronics, the weight savings

should save me... Errrr... $3000 of gas...



Just enjoy the damn things, but the fact that you could justify a Yak/CJ to

yourself/spouse in the first place, means you don't REALLY care.. Otherwise

you would have bought a damn Mooney.. Hehe



The gentleman from Canada ( forgot the name, sorry! ) made the most sense..

Plenty of places to save money, but trying to do it with your plane, is

throwing good money after bad..  Ride your bike or quit the $7 freaking

coffees.. Hehehe..  I know I could save a lot, without spending anything!

That concept does not seem to work on my planes..



Anyway, back to the humorous justifications....





On 5/22/08 9:43 AM, "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Craig,

 The only thing that will make a YAK 52 more economical is to fold the feet

 into wells in the wings. So instead of having three huge parasites sitting

 there under the belly you have a clean air frame. Flush riveting would also

 streamline the airframe some too. Find a way to cool the engine without the

 gills being open is another way to speed her up to. Stripping a lot of the

 weight in the form of inverters, RU radios and instruments would also lighten

 her up. The glass panels like Dynon and Chelton's would offer a lot of info in

 a more compact unit for one tenth the wt. Pulling that 45 lb generator and all

 the miles of electrical wiring out would also lighten up the A/C to.

 Installing a fuel flow monitor would also help you determine the best throttle

 setting for the best fuel economy.

 My Yak 50 weighs nearly 1000 lb less than the 52. I've done most of the above

 to her. Have not stripped out the wiring yet but waiting for an excuse. She is

 one of the flush riveted models. Although her feet do not fold completely into

 the wing, they are a hell of a lot more streamlined than the 52's. Close the

 gills almost shut on a really cold day and she cruises 5-6 knots faster. While

 the 52s chug along at 65% and 700 mmHg indicating 130 kts, I'm throttled back

 at 60% and 600 mmHg still having to do S turns to stay with them. The whole

 time they are burning 15 gal/hr at those settings, I'm showing a fuel flow of

 11.3 gal/ hour at the above settings. The FS 450 has been a huge asset in

 monitoring fuel consumption along with increasing the gallons per mile!

 Those are just my humble observations on things that could clean up the 52 and

 make her more "green".

 Doc

 

 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

(Yak 52) 2838 lbs vs. 2002 lbs (YAK 50) = 836 lbs difference. Add the additional ~30lbs I pulled out in RU instruments, radio, and inverter, it comes out to 836 lbs. I believe that is "almost a 1000 lbs". Sorry I was precise but my airframe logs are at the hanger and I'm in my office this morning.

Doc



--

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Yes, $800 worth Dave.  $500 if you buy it at Gulf Coast Avionics.  Certainly 

not on one flight, but depending on the number of hours you fly a year, it 

could easily pay for itself if it helps you to reduce your fuel consumption 

by 1 gallon per hour by helping you manage your power settings.  Installing 

one for myself proved that it was quite easy to reduce the fuel consumption 

by 1 gallon an hour and most importantly, increase the miles per gallon. 

Increasing miles per gallon is the key.  Yes, it does require interfacing to 

your GPS though.  But that's easy too.  One wire, possibly two if there 

needs to be a ground.



I have heard many people tell me what manifold pressure they are developing 

at WOT with their stock 360 HP M14P's.  Most were high.  Very few were low. 

My first question to them is, when was the last time you calibrated or had 

your MP gauge calibrated?  If the MP gauge is calibrated and the tach is 

reasonably close to being accurate, your engine should produce the book 

specs fuel flows at given manifold pressures and RPM.  BTW, it is easy to 

calibrate the MP gauge as there is an adjustment at the rear (inside) of the 

instrument.  Using a recently calibrated altimeter, read the barometric 

pressure in the Kohlsman window and convert that to millimeters.  29.92" at 

sea level is 760 mm.  Adjust the MP gauge to read the barometric pressure as 

read on the calibrated altimeter.



I wonder how many people flying behind an M14P know if the barometric 

chamber on the carburetor is properly adjusted for their specific field 

elevation?  Since we can not manually lean our engines, I believe it is 

something that when properly preset, can help reduce your fuel consumption. 

Isn't that what leaning is suppose to do as we increase altitude?  I believe 

every little bit does help.



FWIW (and that's not much),

Dennis

After

---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Talon,

It's that fighter mentality pilot thing...I can't seem to get my balls off

my forehead when I'm playing with my YAK 50!

Doc :>))



--

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Yak 55M

1517 lbs empty,  about 1865 lbs with me, oil and aerobatic fuel load.

Makes the 52 feel stuck in the mud (for you southerners)



Herb



On May 22, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 (Yak 52) 2838 lbs vs. 2002 lbs (YAK 50) = 836 lbs difference. Add  

 the additional ~30lbs I pulled out in RU instruments, radio, and  

 inverter, it comes out to 836 lbs. I believe that is "almost a 1000  

 lbs". Sorry I was precise but my airframe logs are at the hanger and  

 I'm in my office this morning.

 Doc



 --

Dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

He is mostly talking about not having me in the back seat.  That saves a 1/2 

ton of weight



DaBear

---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Stuck aint da word! Draggin' da anchor woood be mo likes it! 

Flying the 50 vs the 52 is like driving a Porche vs a Cadillac. There is

really no comparison.

Doc



--

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Is this a straightforward DIY install for tthe JPI?



Herb

On May 22, 2008, at 10:40 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 Yes, $800 worth Dave.  $500 if you buy it at Gulf Coast Avionics.   

 Certainly not on one flight, but depending on the number of hours  

 you fly a year, it could easily pay for itself if it helps you to  

 reduce your fuel consumption by 1 gallon per hour by helping you  

 manage your power settings.  Installing one for myself proved that  

 it was quite easy to reduce the fuel consumption by 1 gallon an hour  

 and most importantly, increase the miles per gallon. Increasing  

 miles per gallon is the key.  Yes, it does require interfacing to  

 your GPS though.  But that's easy too.  One wire, possibly two if  

 there needs to be a ground.



 I have heard many people tell me what manifold pressure they are  

 developing at WOT with their stock 360 HP M14P's.  Most were high.   

 Very few were low. My first question to them is, when was the last  

 time you calibrated or had your MP gauge calibrated?  If the MP  

 gauge is calibrated and the tach is reasonably close to being  

 accurate, your engine should produce the book specs fuel flows at  

 given manifold pressures and RPM.  BTW, it is easy to calibrate the  

 MP gauge as there is an adjustment at the rear (inside) of the  

 instrument.  Using a recently calibrated altimeter, read the  

 barometric pressure in the Kohlsman window and convert that to  

 millimeters.  29.92" at sea level is 760 mm.  Adjust the MP gauge to  

 read the barometric pressure as read on the calibrated altimeter.



 I wonder how many people flying behind an M14P know if the  

 barometric chamber on the carburetor is properly adjusted for their  

 specific field elevation?  Since we can not manually lean our  

 engines, I believe it is something that when properly preset, can  

 help reduce your fuel consumption. Isn't that what leaning is  

 suppose to do as we increase altitude?  I believe every little bit  

 does help.



 FWIW (and that's not much),

 Dennis

 After

 ---

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Well put Dennis, we can make modest improvements in how we fly etc.. Point

taken..



But, I still think, that gal you described, is lost by 99% of us, because we

decided to do one low approach at full power ( just because it is fun!)



Like in my mountain biking.. $1000 for carbon fiber, save 2 lbs..  Should I

put down my 1/2lb whopper while I order that?  I know where I can get weight

out of the picture cheaply... My ass! Hehe..



Also, good point on the base calibration on the carb, will have to look at

that.



David



On 5/22/08 11:40 AM, "Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Yes, $800 worth Dave.  $500 if you buy it at Gulf Coast Avionics.  Certainly

 not on one flight, but depending on the number of hours you fly a year, it

 could easily pay for itself if it helps you to reduce your fuel consumption

 by 1 gallon per hour by helping you manage your power settings.  Installing

 one for myself proved that it was quite easy to reduce the fuel consumption

 by 1 gallon an hour and most importantly, increase the miles per gallon.

 Increasing miles per gallon is the key.  Yes, it does require interfacing to

 your GPS though.  But that's easy too.  One wire, possibly two if there

 needs to be a ground.

 

 I have heard many people tell me what manifold pressure they are developing

 at WOT with their stock 360 HP M14P's.  Most were high.  Very few were low.

 My first question to them is, when was the last time you calibrated or had

 your MP gauge calibrated?  If the MP gauge is calibrated and the tach is

 reasonably close to being accurate, your engine should produce the book

 specs fuel flows at given manifold pressures and RPM.  BTW, it is easy to

 calibrate the MP gauge as there is an adjustment at the rear (inside) of the

 instrument.  Using a recently calibrated altimeter, read the barometric

 pressure in the Kohlsman window and convert that to millimeters.  29.92" at

 sea level is 760 mm.  Adjust the MP gauge to read the barometric pressure as

 read on the calibrated altimeter.

 

 I wonder how many people flying behind an M14P know if the barometric

 chamber on the carburetor is properly adjusted for their specific field

 elevation?  Since we can not manually lean our engines, I believe it is

 something that when properly preset, can help reduce your fuel consumption.

 Isn't that what leaning is suppose to do as we increase altitude?  I believe

 every little bit does help.

 

 FWIW (and that's not much),

 Dennis

 

 

 

 

 

 

 After

 ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Yes, definitely.

Dennis



---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: More Fuel prices

Not a good argument Dave.  You would have made the high speed low pass 

regardless.  And you would have already saved the 1 gallon (example) of gas 

before you made the low pass.



My whole point is we're not going to see avgas prices going down.  But we 

can find ways to reduce fuel consumption without giving up our fun flying. 

And at reasonable cost justifications.  Spending $3000 or more to reduce the 

weight by "X" number of lbs will be a much, much smaller rate of return. 

When you have the ability to control how much fuel the airplane burns, now 

you will see a much faster rate of return on the investment of $500.  100 

hours per year at $5/gallon pays for the instrument.  Plus the other 

benefits that come automatically with using this instrument.

Dennis



---

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum