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sarg314(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: UV SmoothPrime progress |
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I recently posted about having very spotty results with UV smooth prime.
My trouble is that it usually dries with so much texture and tiny
bubbles that I have to sand it all off to eliminate the texture, and I'm
back where I started. I have read the instructions on the can, read the
polyfiber web page and talked to their technical help (all of which is
necessary since they don't list all the information in one place!).
I have finally, very late in the game, figured out how to put this stuff
on. I use the small foam roller they recommend (smallest cell size you
can find) but I DO NOT, contrary to directions, use it without dilution.
As it comes out of the can it's too viscous and that's why it dries
with so much texture. Maybe its because I live in a dry climate
(Arizona) and the stuff dries too fast. I don't know.
I just finished covering my old-style polyester RV-6A wingtip with it
diluted 20% with water. I mix 60 cc (~2 oz) smoothprime + 12cc water +
1cc hardener (covers 1 side of wingtip). Goes on smoother. I put 3 thin
coats, waiting 15 minutes in between coats. Then the next day I sand it
a bit (till it feels smoother to the touch) and then repeat the process
- 3 more coats. The next day I sand for real. While I sand, I very
frequently blow off the dust with compressed air and examine with a
small bright flashlight shined at a very low, glancing angle to see when
that spot is smooth and I should stop sanding there. I examine all
pieces this way before I prime. Extremely tedious, but it prevents
finding any surprise pinholes after painting. Did I mention that I hate
fiberglass?
With this method I am able to sand off all the texture and still have
some UV smooth prime left. For those unfamiliar with it, this stuff
isn't an ordinary pinhole filler that you use for spot filling -
Polyfiber says you should put it on thick enough so that when you are
done sanding you have not sanded thru the UV smoothprime at all,
anywhere. It's for making a new surface on the part. It also isn't
primer, contrary to its name. You still have to apply paint primer over
it (wait a couple weeks for it to dry out completely, though).
I'm happy I figured this out, but I'm P.O.ed that I wasted so much time
getting here. All my fiberglass parts except for the cowl and the
wingtips are already done. If I knew this 6 months ago, I would be 2
months ahead of where I am now, maybe 3. Needless to say, I don't have
a very high opinion of their technical assistance or their documentation.
This post is already twice too long. If anyone wants more details about
my process, I will gladly post.
--
Tom Sargent - RV-6A, getting ready to go to the painter.
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: UV SmoothPrime progress |
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|
Excellent post Tom!!!
You said " If anyone wants more details about my process, I will gladly
post." Please do. Those of us faced with all the FG parts will be
indebted to you. I'll bet you won't run out of beers!!!
Linn
do not archive
tom sargent wrote:
| Quote: |
I recently posted about having very spotty results with UV smooth
prime. My trouble is that it usually dries with so much texture and
tiny bubbles that I have to sand it all off to eliminate the texture,
and I'm back where I started. I have read the instructions on the
can, read the polyfiber web page and talked to their technical help
(all of which is necessary since they don't list all the information
in one place!).
I have finally, very late in the game, figured out how to put this
stuff on. I use the small foam roller they recommend (smallest cell
size you can find) but I DO NOT, contrary to directions, use it
without dilution. As it comes out of the can it's too viscous and
that's why it dries with so much texture. Maybe its because I live in
a dry climate (Arizona) and the stuff dries too fast. I don't know.
I just finished covering my old-style polyester RV-6A wingtip with it
diluted 20% with water. I mix 60 cc (~2 oz) smoothprime + 12cc water
+ 1cc hardener (covers 1 side of wingtip). Goes on smoother. I put 3
thin coats, waiting 15 minutes in between coats. Then the next day I
sand it a bit (till it feels smoother to the touch) and then repeat
the process - 3 more coats. The next day I sand for real. While I
sand, I very frequently blow off the dust with compressed air and
examine with a small bright flashlight shined at a very low, glancing
angle to see when that spot is smooth and I should stop sanding
there. I examine all pieces this way before I prime. Extremely
tedious, but it prevents finding any surprise pinholes after
painting. Did I mention that I hate fiberglass?
With this method I am able to sand off all the texture and still have
some UV smooth prime left. For those unfamiliar with it, this stuff
isn't an ordinary pinhole filler that you use for spot filling -
Polyfiber says you should put it on thick enough so that when you are
done sanding you have not sanded thru the UV smoothprime at all,
anywhere. It's for making a new surface on the part. It also isn't
primer, contrary to its name. You still have to apply paint primer
over it (wait a couple weeks for it to dry out completely, though).
I'm happy I figured this out, but I'm P.O.ed that I wasted so much
time getting here. All my fiberglass parts except for the cowl and the
wingtips are already done. If I knew this 6 months ago, I would be 2
months ahead of where I am now, maybe 3. Needless to say, I don't
have a very high opinion of their technical assistance or their
documentation.
This post is already twice too long. If anyone wants more details
about my process, I will gladly post.
--
Tom Sargent - RV-6A, getting ready to go to the painter.
|
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sarg314(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: UV SmoothPrime progress |
|
|
linn Walters wrote:
| Quote: |
Excellent post Tom!!! You said " If anyone wants more details about my
process, I will gladly post." Please do. Those of us faced with all
the FG parts will be indebted to you.
|
Well, OK, Linn, since you asked.
I don't claim to be any kind of expert with fiber glass, nor am I
convinced that Polyfiber's UV Smooth Prime is the best way to finish a
piece. But I seem to be well down this road and it's too late to change
horses. Were I doing another plane, I'd re-examine the whole approach.
A note on sand paper: All the sanding I do is with 400 grit "open coat"
sand paper. You could use coarser stuff to start with, but you
definitely want 400 when you get down to the latter stages of sanding.
Polyfiber would even suggest 600 grit. My painter says that's too fine.
Open coat sand paper loads up much less than the regular stuff. I buy
it at the auto body supply store. Some of sales personnel might not
know what "open coat" means (the grains of abrasive are further apart).
If it doesn't say "wet or dry" on the package is it probably open coat
and it will say open coat on the back of the sheets (well, the 3M stuff
does, anyway).
Polyfiber's recommendations, the ones I agree with:
1- use a small foam roller (3 or 4 inches long, ~1" diameter) with the
smallest foam cell size you can find. I bought mine in paint dept. at
home depot, plus a small "tray" to use with it. It's made for painting
woodwork, I think.
2- put on a large number of very thin coats rather than a small number
of real thick ones. I put 6 or 7.
3- Don't try to fill huge pits with this stuff. It's for pin holes and
surface roughness.
4- You want to put enough on so that after you have sanded it smooth you
have not sanded thru the UV smooth prime completely anywhere. UV Smooth
Prime is intended to completely re-surface a part, not spot fill it. You
can get away with sanding thru it as long as what's underneath is nice
and smooth.
My Process is all of the above plus:
1- dilute the stuff 20% with water. I find this reduces the texture and
the number of captive bubbles in the hardened product to manageable
levels. (Polyfiber says use it as it comes out of the can. I think
that is too viscous. It may be impacted by the fact that I live in dry
Arizona and that may make it dry too fast.)
2- After mixing it up, let it sit for a few minutes for the bubbles to
come out. Diluting facilitates this too. It has good pot life - several
hours. I hang the roller over the edge of the tray and cover the whole
thing with plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out while I wait.
3- Roll on the first coat. Cover the container and roller with plastic
wrap to prevent it drying out and wait at least 15 minutes. Do not try
to make it a thick coat. Thin is better. You want uniform thickness
over the surface. I suspect that rolling slowly produces less texture
than rolling fast, but I can't swear to it. Don't let any thick runs or
drips stay long enough to dry. After it hardens, it's impossible to sand
those away without sanding completely thru the adjacent UV smoothprime.
Which is another way of saying, make it uniform.
4- Apply second coat, cover tray & roller and wait at least 15 minutes
to dry, and then repeat with a 3rd coat. You could do a 4th coat if you
want or have enough of the stuff left.
5- Next day (or several hours later) I sand that a little. No more than
4 or 5 seconds in one spot. You don't want to remove much, just to
reduce the texture. Blow off all the dust carefully. Then apply 3 more
coats as above.
6- Next day I start sanding with the 400 grit. It produces massive
amounts of dust - use a filter mask. After the texture is greatly
reduced so that it is not obvious, I start checking the surface very
frequently as I sand. I sand for 5 seconds, blow the dust off with
compressed air and inspect the surface with a bright flashlight (1 watt
LED) aimed nearly parallel to the surface. This, combined with my
extreme near-sightedness that allows me to see clearly 4 inches from the
surface, reveals every tiny little pit and pin hole. If you are not
blessed with eyes that have optical infinity just off the end of your
nose, I recommend you get one of those dual magnifiers with a head
strap. Believe me you will see surface features so small that they do
not matter to the paint.
7- The surface won't be perfect. Generally you sand it until all the
pin holes are gone (you can actually partly see thru the UV smoothprime
at this point - if I have sharpie markings on the surface I can see them
pretty clearly at this stage), but there will be a few pin holes that
look deep even at this point. Leave those. They're probably too deep to
sand off. You can try to re-coat those with UV Smoothprime (I hear
that undiluted UV smooth prime squeegeed with a credit card works well,
but it's hard to mix a tiny amount). I use Polyfiber Superfill (Blue
goo). I mix a very small amount (2g filler + 1g hardener), put a small
dab on the pin hole with a popsicle stick and then use a safety razor
blade as a squeegee to squeegee it over the pin hole. Don't squeegee
real hard. Use moderate pressure so you leave a thin film over the area
of the pin hole. If you did it just right, you'll have a spot the size
of a nickel that you can spot-sand away easily leaving the filled pin
hole behind. Again, inspect with the flashlight and near-sighted eyes.
8- You spray primer over the UV smoothprime, but let it dry out for 2
weeks first. Painting too soon may produce bubbles in the paint months
later.
--
Tom S.
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jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: UV SmoothPrime progress |
|
|
I see the SmoothPrime debates continue. I've
been deleting most of the notes on this because I
made my inputs, long ago. However, I'll add one
response. I had one experience with the stuff
and would not recommend it to anyone. I have to
admit that I didn't dry sand mine because the manual
said nothing about having to dry sand it to make it
work. It made the tiny bubbles that when sanded
made little holes where the bubbles had been. I
ended up losing about a week's work on my glass
parts and sanded every bit of the stuff off my airplane.
I ended up with the Dupont fast fill primer that I think
was mentioned in this thread. It filled nicely, could
be worked into pinholes with the finger, etc. It just
worked so much better. With the first coat, that I
was able to sand with wet-dry sandpaper with no
little bubbles popping up, I got most of the pin holes.
A second coat in areas I missed got the rest. It took
very little time to do this, when compared to the mess
I got into with the SmoothPrime. As for letting the
stuff set for two weeks, this may not be good if one
has a paint shop tied up, as was my experience.
Each of us finds something that works for us; but, I
simply can't recommend SmoothPrime to anyone. I
prefer to recommend a fast fill primer like the Dupont
product that works well the first time. Since most of
us wet sand our paint, it's obvious we'd probably
prefer a primer product we can wet sand, as well. If
we were building a glass airplane, the story may be
different. Well, maybe not. I may still prefer the
Dupont product over what I went through with the
SmoothPrime process. Another nice thing about the
Dupont product is that it can also be used to fill in
those little dings you've done to the skins. It can
fill up to about a 1/16"; so, that would take care of
most of the problems. I don't think you can do that
with SmoothPrime.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS
EAA Tech Counselor
---
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bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: UV SmoothPrime progress |
|
|
Tom excellent post in how to apply Smooth Prime. My first airplane was of the plastic variety, during the course of which I was the national gathering host for two years. I put on a forum on Smooth Prime during both those gathering and several subsequent flyins. As you said, this stuff is to be used for filling pin holes only. Due to the makeup of this product two things are prevalent, use a roller no matter how much you think you "should" spray it on, what you are actually doing is forcing the product into the pin holds instead of possibly just skim coating a pinhole which could crack open in the future. When you dry sand this stuff, it is so much easier to sand and an epoxy/micro, the only material you want left is IN the pinholes . It does made a tremendous amount of dust but is very, very easy to sand.
It is still used quite extensively in the plastic world and their plastic is no different than our plastic...........just lots more of it.
Good luck.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying
O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackmagic.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
[quote] Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:33:06 -0700
From: sarg314(at)comcast.net
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: UV SmoothPrime progress
--> RV-List message posted by: tom sargent <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
linn Walters wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
>
> Excellent post Tom!!! You said " If anyone wants more details about my
> process, I will gladly post." Please do. Those of us faced with all
> the FG parts will be indebted to you.
Well, OK, Linn, since you asked.
I don't claim to be any kind of expert with fiber glass, nor am I
convinced that Polyfiber's UV Smooth Prime is the best way to finish a
piece. But I seem to be well down this road and it's too late to change
horses. Were I doing another plane, I'd re-examine the whole approach.
A note on sand paper: All the sanding I do is with 400 grit "open coat"
sand paper. You could use coarser stuff to start with, but you
definitely want 400 when you get down to the latter stages of sanding.
Polyfiber would even suggest 600 grit. My painter says that's too fine.
Open coat sand paper loads up much less than the regular stuff. I buy
it at the auto body supply store. Some of sales personnel might not
know what "open coat" means (the grains of abrasive are further apart).
If it doesn't say "wet or dry" on the package is it probably open coat
and it will say open coat on the back of the sheets (well, the 3M stuff
does, anyway).
Polyfiber's recommendations, the ones I agree with:
1- use a small foam roller (3 or 4 inches long, ~1" diameter) with the
smallest foam cell size you can find. I bought mine in paint dept. at
home depot, plus a small "tray" to use with it. It's made for painting
woodwork, I think.
2- put on a large number of very thin coats rather than a small number
of real thick ones. I put 6 or 7.
3- Don't try to fill huge pits with this stuff. It's for pin holes and
surface roughness.
4- You want to put enough on so that after you have sanded it smooth you
have not sanded thru the UV smooth prime completely anywhere. UV Smooth
Prime is intended to completely re-surface a part, not spot fill it. You
can get away with sanding thru it as long as what's underneath is nice
and smooth.
My Process is all of the above plus:
1- dilute the stuff 20% with water. I find this reduces the texture and
the number of captive bubbles in the hardened product to manageable
levels. (Polyfiber says use it as it comes out of the can. I think
that is too viscous. It may be impacted by the fact that I live in dry
Arizona and that may make it dry too fast.)
2- After mixing it up, let it sit for a few minutes for the bubbles to
come out. Diluting facilitates this too. It has good pot life - several
hours. I hang the roller over the edge of the tray and cover the whole
thing with plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out while I wait.
3- Roll on the first coat. Cover the container and roller with plastic
wrap to prevent it drying out and wait at least 15 minutes. Do not try
to make it a thick coat. Thin is better. You want uniform thickness
over the surface. I suspect that rolling slowly produces less texture
than rolling fast, but I can't swear to it. Don't let any thick runs or
drips stay long enough to dry. After it hardens, it's impossible to sand
those away without sanding completely thru the adjacent UV smoothprime.
Which is another way of saying, make it uniform.
4- Apply second coat, cover tray & roller and wait at least 15 minutes
to dry, and then repeat with a 3rd coat. You could do a 4th coat if you
want or have enough of the stuff left.
5- Next day (or several hours later) I sand that a little. No more than
4 or 5 seconds in one spot. You don't want to remove much, just to
reduce the texture. Blow off all the dust carefully. Then apply 3 more
coats as above.
6- Next day I start sanding with the 400 grit. It produces massive
amounts of dust - use a filter mask. After the texture is greatly
reduced so that it is not obvious, I start checking the surface very
frequently as I sand. I sand for 5 seconds, blow the dust off with
compressed air and inspect the surface with a bright flashlight (1 watt
LED) aimed nearly parallel to the surface. This, combined with my
extreme near-sightedness that allows me to see clearly 4 inches from the
surface, reveals every tiny little pit and pin hole. If you are not
blessed with eyes that have optical infinity just off the end of your
nose, I recommend you get one of those dual magnifiers with a head
strap. Believe me you will see surface features so small that they do
not matter to the paint.
7- The surface won't be perfect. Generally you sand it until all the
pin holes are gone (you can actually partly see thru the UV smoothprime
at this point - if I have sharpie markings on the surface I can see them
pretty clearly at this stage), but there will be a few pin holes that
look deep even at this point. Leave those. They're probably too deep to
sand off. You can try to re-coat those with UV Smoothprime (I hear
that undiluted UV smooth prime squeegeed with a credit card works well,
but it's hard to mix a tiny amount). I use Polyfiber Superfill (Blue
goo). I mix a very small amount (2g filler + 1g hardener), put a small
dab on the pin hole with a popsicle stick and then use a safety razor
blade as a squeegee to squeegee it over the pin hole. Don't squeegee
real hard. Use moderate pressure so you leave a thin film over the area
of the pin hole. If you did it just right, you'll have a spot the size
of a nickel that you can spot-sand away easily leaving the filled pin
hole behind. Again, inspect with the flashlight and near-sighted eyes.
8- You spray primer over the UV smoothprime, but let it dry out for 2
weeks first. Painting too soon may produce bubbles in the paint months
later.
It’s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live™ Messenger. Learn How. [quote][b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: UV SmoothPrime progress |
|
|
Many thanks for the info.
Somewhere in this thread one person mentioned leaving the dust in the
pinhole and capturing that as 'filler'. I'm not too sure that on a hot
day the air that's captured along with the dust won't bubble up the
paint as the air expands. Just a thought. I've used a variety of
finish products over the years ....... and pinholes haven't been a
problem ...... so I'm a little worried at this point. I have to think
that the Vans FG parts aren't the normal 'work of art' that I'm used
to. I'll just have to cross that bridge .....
Linn
do not archive
| Quote: |
Well, OK, Linn, since you asked.
I don't claim to be any kind of expert with fiber glass, nor am I
convinced that Polyfiber's UV Smooth Prime is the best way to finish a
piece. But I seem to be well down this road and it's too late to
change horses. Were I doing another plane, I'd re-examine the whole
approach.
A note on sand paper: All the sanding I do is with 400 grit "open
coat" sand paper. You could use coarser stuff to start with, but you
definitely want 400 when you get down to the latter stages of sanding.
Polyfiber would even suggest 600 grit. My painter says that's too
fine. Open coat sand paper loads up much less than the regular
stuff. I buy it at the auto body supply store. Some of sales
personnel might not know what "open coat" means (the grains of
abrasive are further apart). If it doesn't say "wet or dry" on the
package is it probably open coat and it will say open coat on the back
of the sheets (well, the 3M stuff does, anyway).
Polyfiber's recommendations, the ones I agree with:
1- use a small foam roller (3 or 4 inches long, ~1" diameter) with the
smallest foam cell size you can find. I bought mine in paint dept. at
home depot, plus a small "tray" to use with it. It's made for painting
woodwork, I think.
2- put on a large number of very thin coats rather than a small number
of real thick ones. I put 6 or 7.
3- Don't try to fill huge pits with this stuff. It's for pin holes
and surface roughness.
4- You want to put enough on so that after you have sanded it smooth
you have not sanded thru the UV smooth prime completely anywhere. UV
Smooth Prime is intended to completely re-surface a part, not spot
fill it. You can get away with sanding thru it as long as what's
underneath is nice and smooth.
My Process is all of the above plus:
1- dilute the stuff 20% with water. I find this reduces the texture
and the number of captive bubbles in the hardened product to
manageable levels. (Polyfiber says use it as it comes out of the
can. I think that is too viscous. It may be impacted by the fact that
I live in dry Arizona and that may make it dry too fast.)
2- After mixing it up, let it sit for a few minutes for the bubbles to
come out. Diluting facilitates this too. It has good pot life -
several hours. I hang the roller over the edge of the tray and cover
the whole thing with plastic wrap so it doesn't dry out while I wait.
3- Roll on the first coat. Cover the container and roller with
plastic wrap to prevent it drying out and wait at least 15 minutes.
Do not try to make it a thick coat. Thin is better. You want uniform
thickness over the surface. I suspect that rolling slowly produces
less texture than rolling fast, but I can't swear to it. Don't let
any thick runs or drips stay long enough to dry. After it hardens,
it's impossible to sand those away without sanding completely thru the
adjacent UV smoothprime. Which is another way of saying, make it
uniform.
4- Apply second coat, cover tray & roller and wait at least 15 minutes
to dry, and then repeat with a 3rd coat. You could do a 4th coat if
you want or have enough of the stuff left.
5- Next day (or several hours later) I sand that a little. No more
than 4 or 5 seconds in one spot. You don't want to remove much, just
to reduce the texture. Blow off all the dust carefully. Then apply 3
more coats as above.
6- Next day I start sanding with the 400 grit. It produces massive
amounts of dust - use a filter mask. After the texture is greatly
reduced so that it is not obvious, I start checking the surface very
frequently as I sand. I sand for 5 seconds, blow the dust off with
compressed air and inspect the surface with a bright flashlight (1
watt LED) aimed nearly parallel to the surface. This, combined with
my extreme near-sightedness that allows me to see clearly 4 inches
from the surface, reveals every tiny little pit and pin hole. If you
are not blessed with eyes that have optical infinity just off the end
of your nose, I recommend you get one of those dual magnifiers with a
head strap. Believe me you will see surface features so small that
they do not matter to the paint.
7- The surface won't be perfect. Generally you sand it until all the
pin holes are gone (you can actually partly see thru the UV
smoothprime at this point - if I have sharpie markings on the surface
I can see them pretty clearly at this stage), but there will be a few
pin holes that look deep even at this point. Leave those. They're
probably too deep to sand off. You can try to re-coat those with UV
Smoothprime (I hear that undiluted UV smooth prime squeegeed with a
credit card works well, but it's hard to mix a tiny amount). I use
Polyfiber Superfill (Blue goo). I mix a very small amount (2g filler
+ 1g hardener), put a small dab on the pin hole with a popsicle stick
and then use a safety razor blade as a squeegee to squeegee it over
the pin hole. Don't squeegee real hard. Use moderate pressure so you
leave a thin film over the area of the pin hole. If you did it just
right, you'll have a spot the size of a nickel that you can spot-sand
away easily leaving the filled pin hole behind. Again, inspect with
the flashlight and near-sighted eyes.
8- You spray primer over the UV smoothprime, but let it dry out for 2
weeks first. Painting too soon may produce bubbles in the paint months
later.
--
Tom S.
|
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sarg314(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: UV SmoothPrime progress |
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Jim:
Sounds interesting. Do you have a Dupont part number for this stuff.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jim Sears" <jmsears(at)adelphia.net>
| Quote: |
I ended up with the Dupont fast fill primer that I think
was mentioned in this thread.
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