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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Lucien



Hey join in.



When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was 

VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had 

dual VORs with DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it. 

At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best 

a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME 

but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. 

A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just 

teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power 

goes out.



When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type 

writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable 

with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to 

use E-Mail.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Rick Â 

  I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...

  Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points

  and Clock is telling me..

  

 

  The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements  Distance and speed is

  right in your face.....Â 

  

 

  BUT here again youÂ should already have Â numbers before leaving the Â ground...

  

 

  If the GPS fails for what ever reason Â and yourÂ 50 miles out Â the last thing you wantÂ 

  is a Panic attack at 3k...... Â Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ options than

  the GA experience gives ya....  Â But landing in someone back yard to ask

  WHERE AM I Â just isnt cool hahahaha

  

 

  

 

  Mark

  

 

  

 

  

 --

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

This thread is getting interesting -- OK  now, how many of you will admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too)Anyone gonna fess up?

do not archive





On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne(at)aol.com (knowvne(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]Rick  

 I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...

 Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points

 and Clock is telling me..

 

 

 The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements  Distance and speed is

 right in your face..... 

 

 

 BUT here again you should already have  numbers before leaving the  ground...

 

 

 If the GPS fails for what ever reason  and your 50 miles out  the last thing you want 

 is a Panic attack at 3k......  Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ options than

 the GA experience gives ya....   But landing in someone back yard to ask

 WHERE AM I  just isnt cool hahahaha

 

 

 

 

 Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 --

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

For some reason during my flight back from a Fly-in today...



My GPS was shutting off....???  I checked the connections but it did it again...



 I do fly with current charts...and I have them in a plastic Sleeve so they

don't blow around....



 But it got me thinking...What if I'm on one of my longer cross country flights...

.

 Glad I had the training while getting my Private ticket...

.

.

 Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

.

.

.

My X country flight to Baraboo WI 001.jpg

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jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I  can honestly say I have never been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned  my location", & using all my "tools, have  confirmed my position, but  never been "lost".   Jim

 [quote]   ---

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Jim and all



    Reminds me of story attributed to Daniel Boone..Someone asked him after his long exploration of the wilds of Kenturcky ..if he had ever been lost...He responded : "no, but I was bewildered once" .    Herb 



 At 05:11 PM 6/21/2008, you wrote:

 [quote]Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I have never been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my location", & using all my "tools, have  confirmed my position, but never been "lost".   Jim

   ---

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

It doesn't just happen to Kolbers, Brother  Kinne....one fine summer Sunday morning in 1955 an Eastern Air Lines Martin  404 did that very thing at Bowman Field in Louisville... hazy, milky calm  morning... he was talking to Standiford tower 5 miles away, but landed at  Bowman... I heard the commotion and looked up when he reversed the props to stop  it...  I stood there with my skinny lineboy mouth hanging open as he  taxiied up...  the "company"  refused to let him take off again and  hop over to Standiford... he had to shut 'er down in front of the old  airline terminal and I chocked him... in about 2 hours they sent busses to get  'em all...  I am pretty sure he had plenty of compasses, clocks and no  tellin' what all in there... it sat there all that day and a crew came to fetch  it the next morning.  Paperwork...? 

  

 Do Not archive

  

 Beauford

 FF076 

  

 [quote]   ---

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Flying back from an aeronca convention at Middletown, Ohio in the mid 80s with a friend/passenger.  Lovelyday, flying high enuff to see landmarks, yakking it up....    Funny thing about those little 

towns in Ohio, they all look the same.  Have to admit I got somewhat behind on my navigation

and wasn't sure where I was on the marks-a-lot line.  Well that won't do, I like to be on top

of things even if it's perfect flying conditions.  About then I saw a runway below and headed 

down.  Taxied up, and sectional in hand asked the folks standing there where I was.

Great trip, tailwinds at 7000 both ways, but my bud had  some evil gas in the tent one night.

Shouldn't a gone across the street to that redneck bar.

BB

do not archive

On 21, Jun 2008, at 4:23 PM, Russ Kinne wrote:

[quote] This thread is getting interesting -- OK  now, how many of you will admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too)Anyone gonna fess up?

do not archive





On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne(at)aol.com (knowvne(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]Rick  

 I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...

 Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points

 and Clock is telling me..

 

 

 The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements  Distance and speed is

 right in your face..... 

 

 

 BUT here again you should already have  numbers before leaving the  ground...

 

 

 If the GPS fails for what ever reason  and your 50 miles out  the last thing you want 

 is a Panic attack at 3k......  Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ options than

 the GA experience gives ya....   But landing in someone back yard to ask

 WHERE AM I  just isnt cool hahahaha

 

 

 

 

 Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 --

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Lucien



Hey join in.



When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was 

VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had 

dual VORs with DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it. 

At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best 

a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME 

but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. 

A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just 

teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power 

goes out.



When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type 

writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable 

with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to 

use E-Mail.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



--- 	




Well I'm ambivalent about GPS personally. I'm all for anything that reduces pilot workload, but at the same time I get really nervous hanging multi-thousand buck airplanes on little crappy electronic devices (especially digital ones). Note tongue is a little in cheek here but....



It's sort of like the debate about putting new technology on engines - electronic fuel injection, electronic spark advance and all this stuff. Fact is, you don't need 95% of that stuff in an aircraft applications for a variety of reasons. 



A good friend of mine back in TX once told me that the Lycosaurs and continentals were so exactingly refined for aviation that they havn't changed since the late 1940's. Or was it that they quit adding new features in the 1940's and then it's merely been refining them for aviation that's gone on since... 



Can't remember, but I think his point was quite well made .

I'd say CDI is the best innovation that's come to aircraft engines in the last 50 years and really the only one that truly improves an a/c engine's situation.



This may or may not be true of GPS in avionics. GPS has lot of downsides - it's little crappy digital semiconductors, 100 bucks worth of parts being sold for 100 times that with the single-point failure problem in most cases, the GPS is owned by the military and they frequently intentionally degrade the signal (like they do here) with very little notice and on and on.



For reasons like this, I don't like the idea of GPS as _sole_ means of aviation. I think it's fine as one of several and it's absolutely grand in that regard. It adds so much simplicity to navigation and helps so much with situational awareness and so on. 



But I'm not convinced that it's reliable enough to justify pitching the "old technology" out altogether. An analogue VOR or even two in good working condition can by itself get you out of all kinds of jams even absent anything else (This is how I found myself again on my private long xcountry for example when I got lost). 



I don't think FnAA agrees tho and they seem to be pushing it as sole means. So who knows.



Like I said, if I could fit a good VOR in the titan I'd definitely install one...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

I have Nav/Com.... it has VOR....Which is a good backup for my GPS

.

.

Gotta Fly...

.

.

.





[quote="lucien"] 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Lucien

Like I said, if I could fit a good VOR in the titan I'd definitely install one...



LS

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

just a humorous comment -- many Bahamian natives fish in  small smacks, rocks for ballast, no compass, no lights,  no nothing. Good sailors, but the navigation is near-nonexistent.After a storm, when they fetch up on an  unknown coast or harbor, their first call is "HELLO DIS PLACE' -- then someone ashore will yell

"WELCOME TO ABACO", and then they'll say "HELLOOOO ABACO!" and go on  from there. It works.

do  not archive

 

On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne(at)aol.com (knowvne(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]Rick  

 I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...

 Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points

 and Clock is telling me..

 

 

 The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements  Distance and speed is

 right in your face..... 

 

 

 BUT here again you should already have  numbers before leaving the  ground...

 

 

 If the GPS fails for what ever reason  and your 50 miles out  the last thing you want 

 is a Panic attack at 3k......  Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ options than

 the GA experience gives ya....   But landing in someone back yard to ask

 WHERE AM I  just isnt cool hahahaha

 

 

 

 

 Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 --

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Thanx Jim. I can't make that claim!

On Jun 21, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Jim Kmet wrote:

[quote]Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I have never been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my location", & using all my "tools, have  confirmed my position, but never been "lost".   Jim

[quote]---

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

On my second Solo XC I land at a little dirt strip so to find out where I was...Â  BUT I wouldn't haveÂ landed had they painted the name in the Dirt ..

  Oh and I wasn't lost hahahaha 

 

  

 

   Never have landed at the Wrong Airport..Â 

  Mark

    

 

 --

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

The last GA airplane I flew regularly, until 2004, had a VOR and an ADF. The VOR worked most of the time and the ADF worked only when I could find an NDB still in service, which was not all that often. The slow death of VOR and NDB is a certainty because as the ground facilities become disabled or fail, the FAA is no longer fixing them except those for which there is no reasonable alternative, yet.



On May 19, 1967, I found myself a bit "mis-placed" on a night flight from Atlanta to Opa-Locka, FL. I was talking to Opa-Locka Tower but in the MIA traffic pattern, about 7 miles south of Opa-Locka. I'd never flown into either one before even during day time. It did not take long for the controller to figure out what had happened and I was vectored north with no further problems. If GPS had been invented back then that slight "misplacement" would not have occurred. If transponders had been required back then, it would not have occurred. 



As soon as the Cessna 162 SkyCatchers become available, a friend who owns/operates a local flight school wants me to do their SP instruction. The 162 will have all glass Garmin G300 multifunction and primary flight displays sort of like a junior version of the G1000. He now operates three 172s, all with Garmin Glass. I've flown one of them once. It is a lot of new stuff to learn but once I get a handle on it, there will be no going back, at least not in modern GA. Just wait until the new ADS-B stuff becomes a requirement! 



And yet, for pure joy of flying, simple is much better. Nothing like a Kolb for that.... but I do like the EIS, compact reliable and accurate!

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

 	  Quote: 	
		  On my second Solo XC I land at a little dirt strip so to find out where I 

was...BUT I wouldn't have landed had they painted the name in the Dirt ...


	


Mark,



I was taught to circle a town water tower.  At that time most had the town 

name painted on them.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

vicsv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

All

 Why not just get a backup GPS

 Vic

 N740VP

   [quote][b]

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Jack Good Tip, but dont the locals get upset using those things for Race Pylons 

  

 

  Back home in CA were I got lost we use to joke about flying low enough to read Â 

  Free way signs hahaha

  Today I use a compass Â most flights and the GPS as my confirmation..Â 

  

  

 

  BTW Â I have family in Winchester and Nabb IN..

  

 

  Know any Vaughns or Johnsons Â down there?

  

 

  Mark

 

 

 --

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

Hi Vic 

   

 

  Here is some interesting Reading on Why ...

  Lost reception isn't always a power issue....

 

  

 

  

 

   http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Sept06/solar.flares.gps.TO.html

 

  

 

 

   Â 

     

 

  

 

  IMO Â 

  Knowing how to deadrecon with a compass and clockÂ 

  is the way all XC flights should be conducted...Â 

  

 

  The GPS should be viewedÂ as a confirmationÂ device to

  preflight planning .... Â  Â 

  

 

                  All

   Why not just get a backup GPS

   Vic

   N740VP

     	  Quote: 	
		  

	
  

      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! 

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

knowvne(at)aol.com (knowvne(at)aol.com):

  

 Was wondering how much flight experience you base  your opinion on?

  

 Do you do a lot of cross country  flying?

  

 BTW would be nice if we knew who we were talking  with, what you are flying or building, and where you live.  Not much fun  talking to an email address we know nothing about.

  

 In addition to pilotage and dead reckoning, I am  assuming you also use a sectional to navigate.

  

 Take care,

  

 john h

 mkIII

 titus, al

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff

I have NEVER been Lost!  I’ve been powerful confused for 30 to 45 min at a time, but ain’t ever been lost!  (to those of you with no since of humor that was a joke!)  

   

I do remember on my short cross country into a small town airport Eagle Lake Texas.  I went to the FBO to have someone sign my logbook, they guy behind the counter said, “Welcome to Katy!” I admit I did have to think for a sec before I realized he was pulling my leg…   

   

Fun times..  

Mike  

Mark III  

Oak Grove MO.  

         

  

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russ Kinne

 Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:24 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff  

  

   

This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too)    

Anyone gonna fess up?  

    

do not archive      

   

    

   

    

On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne(at)aol.com (knowvne(at)aol.com) wrote:  

  



 

     

Rick   

    

I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...  

    

Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points  

    

and Clock is telling me..  

    

   

    

The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements  Distance and speed is  

    

right in your face.....   

    

   

    

BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the ground...  

    

   

    

If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the last thing you want   

    

is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ options than  

    

the GA experience gives ya....  But landing in someone back yard to ask  

    

WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha  

    

   

    

   

    

Mark  

    

   

    

   

    



 --

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

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