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capmrp(at)cfu.net
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 06/27/08 |
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Jeff,
This is the kind of thinking that helps save lives and airframes and
all aviation communities need more of it.
The more exposure I get to this kind stand-down thinking, the safer I
am.
I'll be there if I make it to OSH this year.
R/
Mike P.
MM-1
F-1
Waterloo, Iowa
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capmrp(at)cfu.net
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 06/27/08 |
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Doug,
Are you reading this?
I thought you could inject some useful thinking along this guy's line.
When I get closer w/ my F-1, I'd like to visit w/ you and your F-1 for
some refresher time.
R/
pappy
On Jun 28, 2008, at 1:57 AM, Rocket-List Digest Server wrote:
[quote] *
==================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
==================================================
Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
version
of the Rocket-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-06-27&Archive=Rocket
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-06-27&Archive=Rocket
================================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
================================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Rocket-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 06/27/08: 8
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:05 AM - ACRO in Rockets (Jeff Linebaugh)
2. 06:05 AM - Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (Jeff Linebaugh)
3. 07:44 AM - Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (ACTIVE NZ -
Andrew)
4. 08:53 AM - Re: first10 hr report (Im7shannon(at)aol.com)
5. 11:04 AM - 8 versus 4 tail ? (Gerry Filby)
6. 02:09 PM - Re: 8 versus 4 tail ? (Tom Gummo)
7. 02:11 PM - Re: first10 hr report (Tom Gummo)
8. 07:59 PM - Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (Jim Stone)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 06:05:38 AM PST US
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: ACRO in Rockets
Andrew and all...
Tom and Danny did a nice job of trying to discourage acro without
Qualified
Instruction, but let me tag a few more things on to this...
1) Don't believe everything you read... (Insurance agents must be
horrified to read people learning about acro on the internet...!)
Example:
On the Rocket forum, on individual advised that recovering from an
inverted
spin is "basically the same" as a normal spin... Couldn't be more
untrue!
Falling out of a vertical maneuver, with crossed controls is a
recipe for a
spin...upright or inverted...depending on which way it goes... Do
you know
the source that you are receiving instruction from?
2) Most Acro CFIs teach in Citabrias/Decathlons or Pitts. Acro in a
rocket
is quite different due to low drag/high power. Techniques that work
in those
airplanes could be dangerous in a rocket without applying a healthy
dose of
knowledge/experience. An Extra is a better tool to learn by...
High
performance jet jocks (Smokey Ray and others here excepted! ;^)
typically
leave their feet flat on the floor and don't understand p-factor or
torque.
3) My oil pressure drops quickly on vertical up-lines! I have
inverted oil
in my Rocket (Christen system) and an audible warning when oil
pressure
drops below 30. I hate hearing that noise! As a result, I avoid
sustained
vertical lines, hammerheads, left knife-edge (right is OK!) and any
sustained "zero G" flight. (Inverted flight is fine, positive G is
fine, but
hanging around zero isn't.) If you are worrying about flying the
airplane
on that up-line, watching airspeed, etc, are you going to be good
about
checking your oil pressure too?!
I am all for fun...the Rocket is a great acro ship and I enjoy acro
nearly
every flight. I learn something every time I fly it. Risk assessment
is
something we all must do. Unfortunately, reading the accident
reports, we
don't do it well, especially when our egos are involved. What's the
number
one accident cause in "sport" aviation? Please don't just "give it
a try"!
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net
F1 Rocket "Sport"
Collierville, TN
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 06:05:38 AM PST US
From: "Jeff Linebaugh" <jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Anybody up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I
think it
would be good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas to
help each
other stay out of trouble.
About a year ago, I set up a deal with an insurer to give a 10%
discount for
taking a formal initial and annual recurrent training course in the
rocket.
To date exactly "NOBODY" has taken advantage of the program! Is it
because
we are all "better" than to need that? (I know I'm not that good...)
Is it
that the training program is worthless? (If so, I'd sure like
suggestions on
how to make it better!) Is it that the 10% discount won't even pay
for the
gas to do the training...probably? Oh well...
In any case, I know I could learn from others experiences in the
rocket.
Perhaps we could all come with one "there I was" rocket story to
share... ya
know...one that we could all benefit from? Flying or maintenance
related?
In the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and
incidents
I could find in those particular types. The hope was that if we knew
where
the trouble areas were maybe we could avoid repeating the same errors.
Perhaps it would be revealing to do the same for the Rocket? I think
it
would show that the airplane was not at fault in virtually all cases
for the
Rocket. Perhaps we should all look each other in the eye and remind
ourselves to be weary of the "control actuator" in our aircraft...
Whaddaya guys think? Could we find an hour during the week to
dedicate to
safety and accident prevention?
_________________
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net>
F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy...
Collierville, TN
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 07:44:55 AM PST US
Subject: RE: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew(at)nzactive.com>
Count me in, for sure if I actually make it to OSH.
And thx for the thoughts, Jeff. I hear ya. NB, I said most of my
"dual"
instruction was in the Citabria (10 hours or so of dual aerobatic
training) but I've also had a few sessions of dual aerobatic
"coaching"
in the Rocket, a little dual aero stuff in my RV-4....and have done
lots
of solo aeros in the Rocket, to the point that, as I have
embarrassedly
admitted, that I find it a bit boring. (And am therefore wondering
what
I'm doing wrong! It's a ROCKET!!) . So, while I think you guys are
basically correct, and I will, indeed, get some training sorted out
for
pushing on with more interesting manuevres, I do wonder if there's a
time and a place for extending your aerobatic envelope, very
carefully,
very gently, on your own. I mean, you can't get dual for every single
experience you'll face as a pilot, right? I'm certainly not proposing
jumping into aerobatics without training - I actually have quite a bit
of aerobatic training already. So presumably once you understand the
basic principles of aerobatic flying, and have a fair amount of time
in
type with the brown stuff up and the blue stuff down....well, I'm not
sure. I certainly agree, unreservedly, with the concept of taking
safely seriously, getting lots of training, and definitely NOT
believing
everything you read. And if there were any Rocket-qualified
instructors
in NZ I'd certainly get more instruction from them....and ditto, if I
knew anyone who could give dual in an Extra. Except I don't think we
have any in New Zealand. It's, um, a small country! The entire
population of NZ is about the same as San Diego.
I think the idea of an accident/incident summary for Rockets is an
excellent one, and would be happy to help, Jeff. I've personally
trawled
the NTSB records pretty comprehensively, for all sorts of aircraft,
and
it seems that aerobatics/inpromptu airshows/buzzjobs are an
extraordinarily high proportion of the total in many high performance
experimentals. (For a larger sample group, for instance, take a quick
squiz at the RV4 records on the NTSB database.) Pilot error can happen
to all of us - to err is human - and yes, it seems that most accidents
seem to be caused by pilot error, and we need to do our damndest to
avoid that, particularly in these high performance machines. Still, I
worry a little about the aircraft as well - Richard Van Grunsven
designed an extraordinary series of aircraft, but I understand that he
doesn't approve of his airframes being hotted up and hauled through
the
air a la Rocket....and he, surely, knows a fair bit about aeronautical
design. My main fear is overstressing my tail feathers. Was the
aircraft
REALLY designed to have a VNE as high as a Rocket? How about VNO and
VA?
Anyone know how many Rocket accidents have involved vertical or
horizontal stabiliser failure?
For the record, with 400 happy hours of Rocket time under my belt,
mainly mountain flying, I don't think there are unsafe aircraft, per
se.
I just wonder if they have any weak points, apart from the obvious
ones
like being a little nose heavy, and, um, well, that's it for weak
points. Rockets are great machines! But seriously, anyone care to
comment on the strength of the HRII tail, which as far as I know is
stock RV4? Was the tail beefed up for the F1???
Andrew
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Linebaugh
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:16 AM
Subject: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH
Anybody up for a "sit down and chat" style safety seminar at OSH? I
think it would be good to see if we could brainstorm some safety ideas
to help each other stay out of trouble.
About a year ago, I set up a deal with an insurer to give a 10%
discount
for taking a formal initial and annual recurrent training course in
the
rocket. To date exactly "NOBODY" has taken advantage of the program!
Is
it because we are all "better" than to need that? (I know I'm not that
good...) Is it that the training program is worthless? (If so, I'd
sure
like suggestions on how to make it better!) Is it that the 10%
discount
won't even pay for the gas to do the training...probably? Oh well...
In any case, I know I could learn from others experiences in the
rocket.
Perhaps we could all come with one "there I was" rocket story to
share... ya know...one that we could all benefit from? Flying or
maintenance related?
In the Yak community I compiled a summary of all the accidents and
incidents I could find in those particular types. The hope was that if
we knew where the trouble areas were maybe we could avoid repeating
the
same errors. Perhaps it would be revealing to do the same for the
Rocket? I think it would show that the airplane was not at fault in
virtually all cases for the Rocket. Perhaps we should all look each
other in the eye and remind ourselves to be weary of the "control
actuator" in our aircraft...
Whaddaya guys think? Could we find an hour during the week to dedicate
to safety and accident prevention?
_________________
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh(at)bellsouth.net
F1 "Sport" #33, 135 hours of shear joy...
Collierville, TN
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 08:53:57 AM PST US
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: first10 hr report
One other thing to consider about safety, you're all gonna think I
am a dumb
ass when you read this but take the rear stick out first before you do
anything other than straight and level. My back seat cushion went
wandering around
by itself in the cabin the other day and wound up lodged between
the stick
and the side of the fuse. I did not know what was going on until I
landed, I
thought I bent something in the airframe, but I had to fly home 30
miles
pushing the stick left very hard to stay level. It was an
interesting landing
too, lucky there was no wind!
I took the rear stick out and went flying again just to make sure my
airplane still worked!
be safe out there guys and make sure you have plenty of altitude to
recover
from anything you are unsure of.
Kevin Shannon
18 hours and the grin keeps getting bigger..
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction 
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com> wrote:
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com <Im7shannon(at)aol.com>
Subject: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007
)
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 11:04:51 AM PST US
From: "Gerry Filby" <gerf(at)gerf.com>
Subject: 8 versus 4 tail ?
Hi Folks,
Any of you flying the 8 tail on your HR rather than the 4's tail ?
Curious
if there's any experiences that will sway me beyond the price and
pre-punched convenience.
Regards,
Gerry.
(Flying an RV-9, was going to build an RV-10, but decided I could
put the
same IO-540 to better use  )
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 02:09:28 PM PST US
From: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: 8 versus 4 tail ?
Excellent, thinking.
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
---
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