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kuffel(at)cyberport.net
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 Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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Pat,
<< Thud could not be got out of a flat spin. Standard drill was
to take your hands and feet off, and wait >>
The IAC (International Aerobatics Club) division of EAA has
developed a "universal" recovery technique for all types of spins
(conventional, inverted, oscillatory, etc). In brief:
Power Off
Hands Off
Opposite Rudder
(Smoothly recover as rotation ends)
Haven't done any spin testing in a while so don't know how this
compares to "optimum" methods (which can be different for
different types of spins).
Enjoy your l'arning.
Tom Kuffel
Building Original FireStar
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:26 am Post subject: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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The IAC (International Aerobatics Club) division of EAA has
developed a "universal" recovery technique for all types of spins >>
Hi Tom,
perhaps the EAA can teach the military something. I am only retailing what
a pilot said happened to him in Vietnam in a series on TV called `Dogfight`.
It reconstructs real actions, with pretty good computer graphics,
interspersed with commentary by the pilots involved. I don`t think it
mentioned how much height was needed for the unaided recovery to take place.
I was taught `stick forward and opposite rudder` and I am too old to learn a
new technique. As the chances of me flying a Thud are not good so I dont
think I will worry about it.
Cheers
Pat
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JVanLaak(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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Kolbers,
I have been lurking here for a while since I built an original Firestar back in the mid 80's and have been thinking about getting another one. I don't think I have had as much fun in any airplane since.
I am moved to contribute on the subject of spins, having flown many airplanes from Hummers to Kolbs to the F-106, A-10 and F/A-18. I can tell you that high performance jets, particularly those with strongly swept wings and big engines in the tail, have entirely different spin characteristics than light airplanes. For example, the mass distribution along the length of the fuselage can result in strong inertial coupling that the flight controls simply cannot overcome, or the axis of rotation may not be inside the length of the airplane resulting in very high G forces that can incapacitate the pilot. In other cases like the F-106 the plane would eventually recover but the altitude required could be way more than what was available - like 30,000 feet.
The Air Force required all of the pilots who flew the T-37 to practice spins and had a very effective spin recovery technique. It simply does not work in the higher performance airplanes.
Also note that the IAC "universal spin recovery" probably works fine for straight wing light airplanes, but even it is a compromise. There was a great article about 15 years ago detailing the development of that technique indicating that one of its specific goals was to deal with disorientation and resulting incorrect control inputs. By teaching a compromise that would always work it was better than trying to teach how to recognize the confusing differences between variations of upright and inverted oscillating spins. In other words, some recovery power that would be available if the controls were in the optimum position was sacrificed to reduce the potential of the wrong inputs being made.
Fortunately Kolbs are sweet flying airplanes that will take care of you if you take care of them.
Fly Safely
Jim
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
[quote][b]
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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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Jim , Thanks for your input ! Its good to hear from a man that has flown some of the birds I have only dreamed of ,but understands the joy and pleasure of a Kolb. Hope you do get another one and have "as much fun " once again . Thank you for your service toour country. Chris
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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Has anyone here ever spun their Kolb ??? If so what was it like ?
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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| JetPilot wrote: | Has anyone here ever spun their Kolb ??? If so what was it like ?
Mike |
I did some incipient spin entry/recovery exercises in my FS II, tho didn't try to do any actual spins.
Seemed very conventional to me, wing dropped and it'd try to flip over onto its back into a spin. Recovery was just letting go of the back pressure on the stick an applying opposite rudder and it was flying again and going back to a level attitude.
Ailerons still kind of work even in a full stall....
Very no-surprise and docile. No idea about a developed spin tho...
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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Dave Bigelow
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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Jim's notes on spin recovery of high performance fighters brings back many memories. One of the famous Air Force aircraft of its time was the F-101. In a very high angle of attack situation, the T tail could become "blanked" by the wing's airflow, and it would pitch up into what was called a "departure". Not sure exactly why this term was used, but it was usually the pre-cursor to the pilot "departing" the aircraft via ejection seat.
One of the hazards of flying sail planes in mountain wave conditions is the clouds filling in below and trapping you above an overcast. Some Schweitzer 1-26 pilots advocate putting the glider into a spin and spinning through the overcast. They recover after popping through cloud base. Sounds pretty "iffy" but seems better than losing control in the clouds and suffering a structural failure. The idea is that a spin is self limiting in airspeed and G loads.
I've spun the 1-26 a number of times, and it's a pretty straight forward entry and recovery. A number of years back (in my younger and more foolish days), I was over a scattered to broken cloud deck with bases at 4,000 feet. A 1-26 is easily recovered in about 500 feet, so I decided to give the spin through the clouds plan a try.
I entered the spin at about 7,000 feet, stabilized with pro-spin controls (full rudder in the direction of rotation, and full back stick), and entered the clouds. It was horribly disorienting, and I nearly got sick. It seemed to take forever to get through that 2,000 foot thick cloud, and the whole time felt like death was imminent. It was a great relief to pop out of the cloud and recover. Haven't repeated that foolishness since!
Do Not Archive
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Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
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jvanlaak(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:11 am Post subject: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
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Dave,
The term departure is short for "depart controlled flight" as many times you were not going to get it back. The Voodoo was one of many airplanes to exhibit that.
Never tried spinning through the clouds though I too was told it was a potential life saver. I was offered the opportunity to ride through a spin while under the hood in a T-37. What a mistake! I have never been so dizzy in my life. Worst of all, it was on my instrument check ride. Fortunately I got over it in time to successfully complete the ride.
Jim
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