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Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

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markaire(at)gvtc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

Would anyone be interested in a  kit to install Precise Flight speed brakes on a RV-10?  These are the same  units available on the Mooney - there are also STC's for Bonanzas, 210's  etc.  They can be added after the wing has been constructed - I just  did it - but it is a lot of work (ie a LOT of rivets have to be drilled out,  doublers installed, 2 ribs replaced, etc).  If installed during  construction of the wing it would add about 25 to 30 hours to the job - doing it  after the fact would be about 3 weeks!!!  The kit would consist of all  doublers, brackets, access plates, ribs, etc plus instructions - I could even  supply the speed brake itself (I'm a Precise Flight dealer).  I'm guessing  that the cost, including the speed brakes from Precise Flight would be about $6K  but that is only a guess at this point.  Anyone interested contact me at markaire(at)gvtc.com (markaire(at)gvtc.com) or  830-439-2507.

  

 Ed Markline builder #  40675  

   [quote][b]

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

I've thought about installing speed brakes, however I never flown with them. While I understand the benefits of having them, I'm not sure if they would be necessary on the 10.

Could anyone with more experience share their thoughts?



Regards,

Lenny

#40803

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

There are a couple of instances where it would be nice to have the speed

brakes. (1) on top of an icy cloud layer and a descent is required through

it; (2) a IFR approach at 120+ for spacing and needing to slow 70kts to land

at the Class B airports; (3) a descent in rough air where the descent must

be rapid but there is a requirement to keep airspeed below Va. There are

occasional instances where  speed brakes would be nice but the cost and time

to install does not justify for my current flying. I will keep my $10000 and

exercise a little prior planning which will all know prevents PP

performance.  



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

I never thought it was something that was needed, but after thinking

about it and some traveling, I can see why SOME people might want

to add them.  If you have to stay high and then suddenly drop a lot

of altitude, especially in turbulence, they could be very handy.

The RV-10 picks up quite a bit of speed if you push it downhill...

and you will always end up well over Va and any reasonable turbulence

penetration speed trying to get down.  Now flying where I am from,

it's no big deal.  I live at 1000'msl and I can descend for many

many miles and take my time if I want.  But if you lived in an

area where you do things like cross a mountain and have to suddenly

drop lots of altitude to get to your home strip, I can see them

being real handy.  Necessary?  No, you can get by without them I'm

sure, but for a handful of individuals, they could be a nice

addition.  For most people, the cost alone would be good reason

not to, because I think if you're a flatlander you may not get

much use out of them.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Lenny Iszak wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I've thought about installing speed brakes, however I never flown with them. While I understand the benefits of having them, I'm not sure if they would be necessary on the 10.

 Could anyone with more experience share their thoughts?

 

 Regards,

 Lenny

 #40803

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0091#200091

woxofswa

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

Here's my dos centavos.



Speedbrakes were designed primarily around high speed / high altitude jets that have very little drag increase when the power is brought back.  A swept wing jet can go down or slow down, but can't do both at the same time without speedbrakes and/or dunlops.



At my day job there are instances where they are necessary, (the long final into LAX works out great with half boards )but they mostly get used when either the pilot or ATC screws up.  There is a reason why they are often referred to as "bozo boards".  



Bringing a propeller driven aircraft back to idle with the prop in flat pitch makes for a terrific speed brake.  Likewise, a quick 360 or a slip is a lot easier in an RV than a Boeing.



RV's are all about efficiency.  You burned money (fuel) to get that altitude and speed which is energy in the bank that you paid for.  Speed brakes dump that energy overboard.



I have nothing against those who want them and am all for cool new things, but for me personally, I would rather put the weight and expense into something else and manage my energy as efficiently as possible without dumping it overboard.

_________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

That efficiency issue was one of my big points of why I personally

wouldn't want them too....after climbing all the way up to 10-15K',

I want to do an efficient descent to use my fuel wisely, so I like

a longer more planned descent.  I do think, however, that there

are particular people who are based at particular fields or who

do certain types of flying where they may actually have some

benefit.  I really see it as something that only a very small

number of people would want, however...because not only is it

the efficiency of making the most of your descent, but the efficiency

of NOT spending tons of cash on something you won't use often.



You're right that pushing the prop forward does do a good job

of slowing you down and bringing you down quick, but depending

on the environment, you may not want that much shock cooling.



One thing I really like on the Cheltons is it's climb and

descent prediction...a curved green line showing up on your

track that lets you know at what point you'll reach your

new target altitude.  I often can adjust my descent speed

by a couple hundred fpm so that I arrive at pattern altitude

maybe 5 miles out.  Very handy little tool.



So yeah, I do agree for the most part.  For most people it's

a waste, but for a very few they might be a nice addition. I've

had a specific few flights where I thought they would have been

handy.  Considering the price though, I don't miss having them

at all.  May as well not beat the horse too hard, because it's

surely an item that will only attract a handful anyway.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

woxofswa wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Here's my dos centavos.

 

 Speedbrakes were designed primarily around high speed high, altitude

 jets that have very little drag increase when the power is brought

 back.

 

 At my day job there are instances where they are necessary, but

 mostly get used when either the pilot or ATC screws up.  There is a

 reason why they are often referred to as "bozo boards".

 

 Bringing a propeller driven aircraft back to idle with the prop in

 flat pitch makes for a terrific speed brake.  Likewise, a quick 360

 is a lot easier in an RV than a Boeing.

 

 RV's are all about efficiency.  You burned money (fuel) to get that

 altitude and speed which is energy in the bank that you paid for.

 Speed brakes dump that energy overboard.

 

 I have nothing against those who want them and am all for cool new

 things, but for me personally, I would rather put the weight and

 expense into something else and manage my energy as efficiently as

 possible without dumping it overboard.

 

 -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, legacy build fuse in

 progress

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0131#200131

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

Most GPS units also have a Vertical Navigation calculator to assist in your descent.  With the Avmap you just choose your glideslope  and it will continuously figure when to descend and at what FT/Min.   You can also set a point X number of miles out from endponit to get down to PA.  Of course using ones gray matter is another usesful way to calculate descent rate..........mmmmmmmm.......3 miles/min. and need to decend 9000 ft.  and I am 33 miles out.........nah..........use the GPS and EFIS.    

Dean 

805HL  (To Northern MN over Labor Day)  



____________________________________________________________ 

[url=_blank]Stop foreclosure.  Click here to stay in your home and rebuild credit.[/url]

  [quote][b]

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

I don't see any real downside to installing speed  brakes but in my case I wouldn't see any real advantage for my type of flying.  I've got around 200 hours on it now and I've not had any difficulty slowing it  down. If you want to descend and not pick up speed the old side slip works fine.  If you want to slow down quickly pull back the power and raise the  nose.

  

 I'm not saying speed brakes wouldn't be interesting  to have but for me they probably would be used much.

  

 Wayne Edgerton N602WT

  

 do not archive 

   [quote][b]

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

I forgot to say that I'm glider rated so I'm use to  using speed brakes and they are the life blood of the glider but the 10 is  definitely not a glider. Chop the power and she wants to come down.

  

 Wayne Edgerton

  

 do not archive

  

 ---

indigoonlatigo(at)MSN.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

To call them speed brakes on a sailplane is incorrect as mentioned before. To use them to reduce speed may cause real problems, as in very hard landing even at high speed. Correctly, they are for altitude loss and control, causing the glider wing to be less efficient.



A real speed brake....think of an A-1 Skyraider with those barn doors that come out of the side of the fuselage so they can point the nose straight down at the ground and not overspeed.



About to put the sailplane away and get back to building.



JOhn G.

________________________________

[quote] From: wayne.e(at)grandecom.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:05:12 -0500

 

 I forgot to say that I'm glider rated so I'm use to using speed brakes and they are the life blood of the glider but the 10 is definitely not a glider. Chop the power and she wants to come down.

 

 Wayne Edgerton

 

 do not archive

 

 ---

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Speedbrake installation kit for RV-10

..to continue down the OT glider discussion



I would submit that the devices used on glider wings serve to degrade 

the L/D performance of aircraft independent of whether they are called 

spoilers, dive brakes, or speed brakes.  Whether you spoil lift or 

increase drag - you will come down at a greater rate and everything else 

being equal, you will slow down.  Cases on point:

- The Schweitzer 1-34, a 60s vintage a metal glider had "terminal 

velocity" dive brakes.  You could point the ship straight down with what 

I assume you would call 'dive brakes' and you would not exceed Vne.  

There was nothing special about Vne, but just a good example of the drag 

created by what is now a typical glider  'spoiler' configuration.  I 

understand that more than a few modern sailplanes have spoilers capable 

of terminal velocity performance, but simply haven't been fully tested 

and certified as such.

- Trim a modern sailplane for a typical approach speed, apply the 

'spoilers', and try to maintain the same pitch attitude without losing 

speed.  Or conversely, apply spoilers and note the pitch change required 

to maintain speed.



I'm thinking the banking devices on an MU-2 would properly be called 

(lift) spoilers since their function is drop a wing with minimal drag.  

The landing approach devices on gliders do varying amounts of lift 

spoiling and drag increasing based on their design but few are primarily 

'spoilers' and most are very effective dive/speed brakes by design.  And 

some like those on the Schweitzer 2-22 are excellent side slip trainers 

because they barely do anything at all.



OK, I've returned home aboard the Maule on a very nice soaring day her 

in NC.  Now I'm ready to go do some building before this weekend  gets away.



John Gonzalez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 To call them speed brakes on a sailplane is incorrect as mentioned before. To use them to reduce speed may cause real problems, as in very hard landing even at high speed. Correctly, they are for altitude loss and control, causing the glider wing to be less efficient.



 A real speed brake....think of an A-1 Skyraider with those barn doors that come out of the side of the fuselage so they can point the nose straight down at the ground and not overspeed.



 About to put the sailplane away and get back to building.

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