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Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 05:05 AM 8/28/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I took a look at the new kitplanes article on how to build an elegant LED 

driver for aircraft.



Up until now I have been planning to use an off the shelf cheap constant 

current power supply from LEDDYNAMICs.   But people are reporting 

everywhere that these things are trashing the aircraft radios with RF noise.



That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article driver 

have over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise problem 

still exist with that driver as well?



 >From looking at the circuit, it looks similar to what one might think 

 the LEDDynamics one would look like inside.


	


   Without seeing the circuit, I'm not sufficiently informed

   to offer solutions for the noise issues. But know too

   that unless the appliance of interest is composed only

   of relays and resistors, it has a strong probability of

   generating some level of noise. The questions are always

   how much noise and at what frequencies?



   This is why we do the DO-160 investigations and subsequent

   modifications to a product to limit any noises to

   acceptable levels. There is a high order probability

   that any COTS (commercial off the shelf) device can be

   tailored with packaging and filtering to live harmoniously

   in the aircraft environment.



   If someone could point me to the schematics and

   perhaps data sheets for the power supply in question,

   we could ponder the options for integrating them into

   the system.



   Linear (non-noisy) constant current circuits are a dime

   a dozen but they are inefficient and unable to provide

   constant output over a wide range of input voltages. I

   suspect the Leddynamics device is a switchmode device

   that works over a wider range of input voltages and

   dissipates less heat (more efficient) in the process.



   Bob . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Bob,



I have emailed you a direct link to this Kitplanes article.  Please check it out.



Here is the data sheets for the LEDDYNAMICs driver:

http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/3021-BuckPuck.pdf



Thanks for any input you can share on this.



A few ideas on how to make the most efficient constant current driver (linear) would be great.  I know it is not the best but it would have to be better than a huge power robbing resistor....



I would like to think that the COTS drivers could be adapted to work with our aircraft with minimal work/expense.

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 09:01 AM 8/28/2008 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

<echristley(at)nc.rr.com>

Brantel wrote:

>That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article 

>driver have over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise 

>problem still exist with that driver as well?

>

Education.

   Jim's choice of silicon for an LED driver is curious. Perhaps

   he likes the part's package . . . it's a dual-inline-plastic

   which is easier for the neophyte to work with. There are

   some more modern, constant current LED driver devices that

   are electrically more suited to the task. An exemplar device

   is shown here:

http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3404.pdf

   This is one of a host of similar one to multi-channel dimmer

   controllers. The 3404 delivers up to of constant current

   to it's companion loads.

   It's a switcher. It hums at 1 to 2 Mhz with a butt-ugly

   wave-form rich in harmonics. This device needs to be

   a very compact layout (small antenna aperture) and be fitted

   with conduction filters on the input/output wires. It

   MIGHT be okay in a plastic enclosure . . . but a metal

   one never hurts.

   If folks are interested in an LED driver tested for

   radiated and conducted emissions, I might be able to

   add that to our catalog in the not too distant future.

   My consulting work is going to require me to spend a

   lot more time in an RFI lab. I can probably piggy-back

   some of my 'government jobs' on top of a paying task.

   I used to do this years ago by letting my little gizmo

   run in parallel with test articles in the chamber. As

   long as we were both cool, I could get two sets of test

   data with one scan. If we had an out-lying data point,

   I'd turn off my gizmo to see who was responsible

   for busting the limits. I think I'll be able to do

   this again pretty soon. I'm working three paying jobs

   that need to get into the lab soon.

        Bob . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 08:31 AM 8/29/2008 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<david.nelson(at)pobox.com>

Hi Bob,



I'm curious, why is such a high freq (1-2MHz) needed for an application 

such as this?  Rather, why not in high 100's of Hz given that the eye 

can't even discern above 30 Hz?



Thank you,



         /\/elson


	


  Great question. The problem of selecting an operating

  frequency comes from a trade-off in reactances . . .

  in the form of inductors and capacitors. The higher

  you go in frequency, the more energy can be stored on

  a given size inductor (assuming the core is loss less).

  The higher you go in frequency, the easier it is to

  couple energy via capacitors . . . both for the purpose

  of bypassing and transfer.



  In this case, the power supply is an energy conversion

  system that stores a short pulse of current on and inductor

  and then retrieves that energy at a different voltage level.

  Given no other considerations for efficiency of the switching

  devices and losses in the magnetics, one would LIKE to operate

  at the highest possible frequency to drive down the physical

  size of components.



  Example. Step down transformers for 60 Hz AC delivered to

  the house can handle about 60 watts per pound of transformer

  core and copper. Airplanes use 400 Hz and the same transformer

  weight and volume can handle over 6 times the power  . . .

  but the iron for the transformer must be tailored for low

  losses at the higher frequency.



  The high output LEDs need about 4v per lamp (whites) but

  they're CURRENT driven devices. The really cool thing about

  switchmode power supplies is that you can take energy in

  at voltages in a much below or above the desired output

  levels and bring the energy out as either a constant current

  or constant votlage. The LM3404 is designed to operate in

  the constant-current mode.



  Batteries are not constant voltage devices . . . so the

  most efficient flashlights will have a rather sophisticated

  voltage to constant current generator that accepts battery

  voltage over the full range useful output and delivers

  a constant current to the lamp until the batteries are

  truly drained. These converters need to be tiny and

  efficient . . . highest practical operating frequency

  is a strong consideration in meeting design goals.



  Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 10:44 AM 8/31/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



My two cents....



I think Jim Weir was not well-advised in publishing his article.  There 

are tons of DC-DC converters available for less than what it would cost 

you to build one, even if you forget the bench full of test gear and the 

years of education, and the labor required to do this job well.



My advice--



1) Buy the supply if you need one. www.Astrodyne.com,  etc. or Google 

"DC-DC switcher supply"


	


    Agreed. One is almost always $time$ ahead to "buy" rather than "make".



 	  Quote: 	
		  2) Don't use a switcher supply if battery voltage DC will do.


	


    The idea of "will do" needs defining. The thing that started this

    thread was a quest to drive a high-output LED. These tend to be

    in the hundreds of milliamps. Deriving a constant-current supply

    is impossible without resorting to active electronics. Linear

    drivers are as inefficient as resistors; energy -> heat



 	  Quote: 	
		  3) If you really MUST make one, sign onto National Semiconductor's Web 

Bench where they will design a supply to your specs, component list, PCB 

layout and all.


	


    Yeah . . . sorta. As I mentioned in the earlier post, LEDs like

    to be driven constant current. The web-design applications on

    most sites tend to be constant voltage supplies.



 	  Quote: 	
		  4) This is not a job for the amateur. Switchers supplies are hard work, 

especially the quiet ones.  Here's a free million-dollars-worth of 

education--"Spend the extra money for a four-layer PCB".


	


    Multilayer boards can be helpful in reducing conducted

    and radiated noise . . . but it's not essential nor is

    it terribly expensive. Expresspcb.com will fabricate

    4-layer boards for really cheap if you use their

    software and order over the 'net using credit card.

    However, I've not found it necessary to resort to multi-

    layer topology. Compact layout with good grounds combined

    with metallic enclosures drives your radiated emissions

    issues more than anything else. Filters in the input/output

    lines controls conducted emissions. NONE of the design-on-line

    software programs speak to EMC compatibility issues. You add

    the QUIET parts after you get the WORKING parts going.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

5) The fact is that the LED will almost certainly last longer than the 

power supply. This should give one pause....


	


    Yup, $education$ IS always expensive. Zach and I are

    taking on his first HVAC job in M.L. next Tuesday.

    We expect to salvage a new install that the only local

    guy attempted but fell short on some combination of skills,

    materials, or tools. We're not going to even break even

    on this effort due to spool up costs of nearly $1,000 in

    tools and supplies (with more to come) plus the fact that

    the job economics won't support paying what the service

    is REALLY worth. However, we're going to add to our

    $education$ while our customer is going to see a

    demonstration of do-it-right-the-first-time. I expect to

    add the contractor to Zach's further list of appreciative

    and confident customers.



    Risky? Yes. Give us pause? Yes . . . just long enough

    to figure out that it's but the beginning of a long-term

    goal. So if your short term goals are to get daylight

    under the wheels on a 99% complete project, by all means

    buy your LED drivers. But if figuring out how to DIY

    fits your combination of curiosity and willingness to

    add to a skill-set, go for it - and we'll help!



    See: http://tinyurl.com/6djl2y



    for a host of components and architectures for

    constant current supplies. If one wants to make it

    work first, then we'll tackle the make it quiet

    part later.



     Bob . . .

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Guys,



We already have a cheap OTS driver available, what I want to know is how to put it on an airplane and keep it from trashing my airband radio gear with RFI noise.....

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 03:03 PM 8/31/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I fully agree.  Describing this is the same as a handyman magazine

describing how to design wall studs.  Huh?  As a kitplane builder I don't

want to design and build fundamental electrical/electronic devices.  If I

did I'd be subscribing to ARRL or similar.



Instead, Kitplanes should have electrical articles that either describe

basic technique (for the steady stream of beginners) or higher-level issues

like connecting displays/autopilots/GPSs, maybe some of the APRS stuff,

maybe electronic ignitions...


	


   ????? I would REALLY like to see the OBAM aviation publications

   rise to the levels of expertise and pioneering spirit of say

   Contact magazine. Some of their stuff gets really technical but

   the articles have enough lay-speak to encourage the motivated

   and interested among us to pursue opportunities to learn.



   There are PLENTY of cook-book publications out there. I

   would expect many of the folks who hang out here on the

   List are intrigued with doing things that expand their

   understanding if not their core competencies while also

   being served with proofed recipes for success.



   There's room (and a need) for well written and practical

   articles in all disciplines and at levels of expertise in our

   craft.  I too would be delighted if folks with expertise in

   the arenas you've cited were members of this List . . .

   but what we have is what we have . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		  Given Mr. Weir's well-deserved reputation as an abusive hot-head in public

forums, and his poor reputation as a seller in VAF, maybe Kitplanes should

consider someone else writing the electrical articles.  Bob?


	


   I have spoken with the folk at Kitplanes but not in the last ten

   years or more. I think I even submitted an article or two but the feedback

   at the time suggested that their technical writing needs were

   covered.



   So without investing $time$ in discussion of how good/bad anyone

   else is, let us tend to our house for the purposes of

   enlightening our family . . . irrespective of how their goals might

   stack up the goals of others.



   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 03:03 PM 8/31/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Guys,



We already have a cheap OTS driver available, what I want to know is how 

to put it on an airplane and keep it from trashing my airband radio gear 

with RFI noise.....


	


   Which driver are you using. What currents flow in the

   leads that attach to the device. Which radios are

   being affected and have you determined whether the

   noise is getting in through audio, power or antenna

   leads?



   Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Bob,



Several others and I have tried the wired buck puck by LEDDynamics:



http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-1000.php



I think most if not all of these different types of drivers from LEDDynamics have similar circuits in them and similar noise issues.



I personally have the 1000mA version with two parallel runs of three K2 stars in series for 500mA on each series string of 3 LED's.  This 6 LED's total per side of the airplane.



I do not have a panel mounted radio yet to try but several others have tried them with the SL30 with no success.  I do however have a handheld with similar problems when used near these drivers.



The symptoms that most report with panel mount radios is noise over the headsets and reduced sensitivity (distant signals go quiet) when the LED driver is powered on.  Handheld goes nuts (tons of static/noise/inability to squelch it out) when within 50ft of these things while running the handheld on separate battery power.



The literature for the driver says to put a 220uF cap across the power leads to the driver when operating with long input leads.   Most report that this does nothing to help the noise issue.



Others have went a step farther and installed a 220uF cap and a .1uF cap in parallel across the input leads and this reduced the audible noise on the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.



Still another went a step farther and tried the same on the input and outputs of the driver with the same results.  Reduced the audible noise on the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.



And as a final straw, one guy put both the caps on the input leads and also added a loop thru some ferrite beads optimized for the airband on the input leads, output leads, and the wires going to and coming from his audio panel and panel mount radio.  This eliminated the audible noise on the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity (turn off the driver and distant stations come in loud and clear, turn on the driver and they go quiet, seems to trigger the active noise reduction circuits of the panel mount radio when the noise floor is raised).



The only thing we have not tried is to put this whole mess in a sealed aluminum box and ground it.



There are a bunch of us over on the VAF site that would love to get these things working with our airplanes.  The driver is just too simple and inexpensive.  There has to be some relativly simple fix for this.  These drivers have great constant current, run at wide voltage ranges, work great with the high power LED's, and produce little to no heat.  If it was not for this noise issue, the perfect thing for us....

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 07:15 PM 8/31/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



I and several others have tried the wired buck puck by LEDDynamics:



http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-1000.php



I think most if not all of these different types of drivers from 

LEDDynamics have similar circuits in them and similar noise issues.



I personally have the 1000mA version with two parallel runs of three K2 

stars in series for 500mA on each series string of 3 LED's.  This 6 LED's 

total side of the airplane.



I do not have a panel mounted radio yet to try but several others have 

tried them with the SL30 with no success.  I do however have a handheld 

with similar problems when used near these drivers.


	


   Aha! if a hand-held has the problem, we know it's radiated

   in through the antenna. That's what I would have guessed

   but there's risk in guessing.

 	  Quote: 	
		  The symptoms that most report with panel mount radios is noise over the 

headsets and reduced sensitivity (distant signals go quiet) when the LED 

driver is powered on.  Handheld goes nuts (tons of static/noise/inability 

to squelch it out) when within 50ft of these things while running the 

handheld on separate battery power.



The literature for the driver says to put a 220uF cap across the power 

leads to the driver when operating with long input leads.   Most report 

that this does nothing to help the noise issue,



Others have went a step farther and installed a 220uF cap and a .1uF cap 

in parallel across the input leads and this reduced the audible noise on 

the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.



Still another went a step farther and tried the same on the input and 

outputs of the driver with the same results.  Reduced the audible noise on 

the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.



And as a final straw, one guy put both the caps on the input leads and 

also added a loop thru a ferrite bead optimized for the airband on the 

input leads, output leads, and the wires going to and coming from his 

audio panel and panel mount radio.  This eliminated the audible noise on 

the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity (turn 

off the driver and distant stations come in loud and clear, turn on the 

driver and they go quiet, seems to trigger the active noise reduction 

circuits of the panel mount radio when the noise floor is raised).



The only thing we have not tried is to put this whole mess in a sealed 

aluminum box and ground it.



There are a bunch of us over on the VAF site that would love to get these 

things working with our airplanes.  The driver is just too simple and 

inexpensive.  There has to be some relativly simple fix for this.  These 

drivers have great constant current, run at wide voltage ranges, work 

great with the high power LED's, and produce little to no heat.  If it was 

not for this noise issue, the perfect thing for us....


	


   Okay, In another post I've offered to lay out a board that

   will mount the Buck Puck and bring leads out to the aircraft

   on a 9-pin D-sub. Are you using the Control or Reference

   connections? Also, I need to know if there is electrical

   continuity between Vin minus and LEDout minus connections.



   Bob . . .

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Bob,



I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to use the control or reference functions but it would be great if those "could" be used on this rig in the event someone wanted to strobe/dim/on-off control these things for other applications in the plane.



I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does have 100% continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter).



I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA (at) 12vDC using a wall wart powersupply.

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 12:14 PM 9/1/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to 

use the control or reference functions but it would be great if those 

"could" be used on this rig in the event someone wanted to 

strobe/dim/on-off control these things for other applications in the plane.



I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does 

have 100% continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter).



I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA (at) 12vDC using a 

wall wart powersupply.


	


   Very good. I've laid out a board that's 1.6" x 1.5" with a 9-pin

   d-sub and couple-capped, pi-net filters on both power+ in and

   LED+ out leads. I found a 100uH inductor in a 10mm x 10mm

   footprint that's good for an amp of DC current.



   The boards and inductors are on order. Capacitors and

   connnectors are in stock. If you'd like to mail me your

   Buck-Puck, I'll assemble it onto the board with the filter

   and check it against my hand-held before I return it to

   you for testing in your system.



   Bob . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Bob,



I'll just drop ship you a new one from the supplier.  How do you want it, flying leads or board mounted?

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 02:38 PM 9/1/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



I'll just drop ship you a new one from the supplier.  How do you want it, 

flying leads or board mounted?


	


  Board mounted.



  Bob . . .

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Bob,



The driver shipped direct to you on Tuesday.  Please let me know when you get it.



DO NOT ARCHIVE

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 08:04 AM 9/4/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



The driver shipped direct to you on Tuesday.  Please let me know when you 

get it.



DO NOT ARCHIVE


	


  Very well. the inductors got here today. The boards

  will be here tomorrow.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 08:04 AM 9/4/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



The driver shipped direct to you on Tuesday.  Please let me know when you 

get it.



DO NOT ARCHIVE


	


   Got all the parts in and assembled a WAG filter

   assembly. See:



http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Buck-Puck/Buck-Puck_1.jpg



http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Buck-Puck/Buck-Puck_2.jpg



   Don't have time to do the RFI tests so I'll just mail the

   whole thing back to you to see how well we did.



   Shoot me your return address right quick.



   Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Bob,



I sent you my address to the nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net



email account.

Brantel

Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

Bob,



Have not received the driver board yet.  Is it lost or ???



Thanks,



Brian Chesteen



DO NOT ARCHIVE

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver

At 04:53 AM 9/16/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



Have not received the driver board yet.  Is it lost or ???



Thanks,



Brian Chesteen



DO NOT ARCHIVE


	


  I was hoping I could get into the lab and look at

  DO-160 conducted . . . it's not in the stars

  this week.



  Shoot me an address to mail it to.



  Bob . . .

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