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Door Seals - Again
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jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

Over the weekend we finally installed the door seal per the instructions.  I was concerned that our door fit would change based on prior posts, and big surprise to me, the doors now fit poorly.  Before we started to rework everything to get back to a decent fit, or before buying new seals to replace the factory seals I decided to send an e-mail to Vans with the question (see copy below).  I received a response from Vans, also copied below.  I am shocked that Ken Scott not only couldn't provide a solution, but also said that this is the first they have EVER heard of this problem.  Not that it will do much good, other than to satisfy my own curiosity, but has anyone else asked Vans this question?  What gives???  I am proud to be a Van's customer, but they can be frustrating....  BTW, any pointers on a solution to the problem would be appreciated. 

 

Jason Kreidler 9/2/2008 

"A few days ago we installed the door seal that was supplied with our kit. Before installation of the door seal, our doors fit as close to perfect as we could have hoped for.  After installing the door seals, the doors fit terribly.  We attempted to move the seals while closing the door to insure they were placed in the channel of the cabin top, but even that did not help.  We are now considering different options, it seems as if the bulb on the seal is just too big.  Since this appears to be a common problem all builders are experiencing, do you have any ideas to solve this issue? I hate to buy after market seals to replace the stock seals without asking the question." 

 

Ken Scott Reply 9/2/2008 

"We've had no problems with the supplied seals on our airplanes, and I haven't heard any complaints from the field.  I took a poll of the tech help guys this morning, and none of us have had any questions that we can remember.  I'm not sure what to tell you." 

 

Thanks, Jason Kreidler 

4-Partner Build (Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elsner) 

Sheboygan Falls, WI 

#40617 Finishing [quote][b]

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

Jason

  6nbsp;

 Ken 7s reponse is troubling E A quick look at the a/c at KOSH shows that some have been better than others in fitting the doors E I just don 7t believe that absolutely no one has spoken to Van 7s about this before E  6nbsp;I spent quite some time with one builder at KOSH who fabbed fiberglass trim pieces and his own door seal for this very reason E

  6nbsp;

 That being said C a little help from the Van 7s team would have been nice - that is what tech support is for E  6nbsp;Hopefully some of the more experienced builders on this list can help you E I for one C would be lost without all the advice C guidance and support that this list provides E

  6nbsp;

 Cheers

  6nbsp;

 Les Kearney

  340643 - Some assembly required

 



---

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

Not what I would call overly surprising response from that particular Ken but also probably not inaccurate.  I think most people have accepted the problem and as such few, if any as Ken has said, have reported it.  One of the problems with having such a great community of builders is that we tend to try and solve things amongst ourselves, sometimes to a fault, and because of this the manufacturer may not hear about the problems.  If you want a better answer out of Van’s talk to Ken Krueger who actually is helpful and is the engineering minded Ken.  

   

  Given all the past complaints on this subject, I will be doing a rough fit and then put some “throwaway” seals on for final fit.  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com

 Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:49 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Door Seals - Again  

  

   



 Over the weekend we finally installed the door seal per the instructions.  I was concerned that our door fit would change based on prior posts, and big surprise to me, the doors now fit poorly.  Before we started to rework everything to get back to a decent fit, or before buying new seals to replace the factory seals I decided to send an e-mail to Vans with the question (see copy below).  I received a response from Vans, also copied below.  I am shocked that Ken Scott not only couldn't provide a solution, but also said that this is the first they have EVER heard of this problem.  Not that it will do much good, other than to satisfy my own curiosity, but has anyone else asked Vans this question?  What gives???  I am proud to be a Van's customer, but they can be frustrating....  BTW, any pointers on a solution to the problem would be appreciated. 

 

 Jason Kreidler 9/2/2008 

 "A few days ago we installed the door seal that was supplied with our kit. Before installation of the door seal, our doors fit as close to perfect as we could have hoped for.  After installing the door seals, the doors fit terribly.  We attempted to move the seals while closing the door to insure they were placed in the channel of the cabin top, but even that did not help.  We are now considering different options, it seems as if the bulb on the seal is just too big.  Since this appears to be a common problem all builders are experiencing, do you have any ideas to solve this issue? I hate to buy after market seals to replace the stock seals without asking the question." 

 

 Ken Scott Reply 9/2/2008 

 "We've had no problems with the supplied seals on our airplanes, and I haven't heard any complaints from the field.  I took a poll of the tech help guys this morning, and none of us have had any questions that we can remember.  I'm not sure what to tell you." 

 

 Thanks, Jason Kreidler 

 4-Partner Build (Jason Kreidler, Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elsner) 

 Sheboygan Falls, WI 

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jchang10

Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Door Seals - Again

I am working on the doors now. Before doing the last 10% of fitting on 

the doors, i considered what effect the door seals would have. From the 

plans, it seems like the door seals are installed on the door to get 

sandwiched between the door and the door frame flange. It seems like the 

door seals would cause the doors to stick proud of the cabin top, if 

anything. In that case, I will continue to follow the plans and get the 

doors to fit perfectly flush with the cabin top, even before door seals 

are installed. When the seals are installed, then continue to trim down 

the door frame flange until the door is flush with the cabin top again.



Does that seem reasonable?



Of course, i got the fit almost "perfect", then i installed the hinges. 

The hinges have enough slop or magin for error, that it seems like it's 

inevitable that your door will not STAY perfect once the hinges are 

installed. Fortunately, it looks like shimming one of the hinges should 

get things close to lined up again.



jae

#40533 - doors



jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Over the weekend we finally installed the door seal per the 

 instructions.  I was concerned that our door fit would change based on 

 prior posts, and big surprise to me, the doors now fit poorly.  Before 

 we started to rework everything to get back to a decent fit, or before 

 buying new seals to replace the factory seals I decided to send an 

 e-mail to Vans with the question (see copy below).  I received a 

 response from Vans, also copied below.  I am shocked that Ken Scott 

 not only couldn't provide a solution, but also said that this is the 

 first they have EVER heard of this problem.  Not that it will do much 

 good, other than to satisfy my own curiosity, but has anyone else 

 asked Vans this question?  What gives???  I am proud to be a Van's 

 customer, but they can be frustrating....  BTW, any pointers on a 

 solution to the problem would be appreciated.

 *

 *

_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Door Seals - Again

I saw quite a few different seals at OSH. From what I can gather, Vans is not the preferred seal. Thoug with those owners that have installed the Van's seal the seal seems to be working well and there is little complaint on noise or air intrusion. One big complaint aside from the lack of nice appearance is that you have to use pop rivets, and if you need to change the seal (drill out the pop rivets), you will have the rivet ends rattling around inside the door.



I did see seals from AIRCRAFT DOOR SEAL LLC called the "Incredible Aircraft door seal" see aircraftdoorseals.com



He did give me a sample, but I did not get any feedback from those who have installed it. any feedback on this product is appreciated.

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

rv(at)thelefflers.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: Door Seals - Again

Dick at AircraftDoorseals is a good guy to deal with.   I've used several of

his products on my Cherokee.   He answered questions quickly and did

whatever it took to help folks out.



I don't have experience with his door seals on a RV-10 yet, but based upon

my previous experience, I would go to him again.



We just need to convince Dick to trade in his Lance for a RV-10!  :^)

--

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Door Seals - Again

The Vans standard door seal is glued in place rather than rivetted.  My

doors sat a little proud after installation of the seal.  I'm with

Michael S. - I did not report the condition to Vans and just worked the

cabin top/door intersection to smooth the fit.  Just another issue with

the (less than fun) construction of the doors.  I have also noticed that

I have contacted Vans on build issues much less frequently during the

finishing activities, deferring to the collective experience of the

list.  But I am surprised that Van does not recognise the weaknesses in

the door design compared to the rest of the kit.



Cheers

Ron

187 painting



--

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Door Seals - Again

Hey Jason,



IMHO, FWIW, IIRC, YMMV, (sorry, I'm just practicing!)  We eventually got a perfect fit on the doors, then used good carpet tape (really sticky on both sides) to cut and temporarily mount the seals ... and they work just fine.  Our latch pins really pull in the doors so that there's not much wiggle room for the seals to effect the fit.  But it does make it a bit snug so that like everyone else, you have to be sure to pull in the rear.  After leaving the seals clamped tight with the door latches for a couple of days, it's still snug but not as hard to close.  The seals are marked for left, right and where to position them, and set aside until after painting and final installation.  With weather seal/emblem glue, I see no reason to pop rivet.



Are you sure you are orienting the seal correctly to the door per instructions?



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: Door Seals - Again

Hi Mike!

 Looks like you made is to Oshkosh this year after all. We saw your picture at the barbeque. Good luck on  finishing your 10 soon!

 Brian and Ruth Preston

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> 



[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "AirMike" 

 

 I saw quite a few different seals at OSH. From what I can gather, Vans is not 

 the preferred seal. Thoug with those owners that have installed the Van's seal 

 the seal seems to be working well and there is little complaint on noise or air 

 intrusion. One big complaint aside from the lack of nice appearance is that you 

 have to use pop rivets, and if you need to change the seal (drill out the pop 

 rivets), you will have the rivet ends rattling around inside the door. 

 

 I did see seals from AIRCRAFT DOOR SEAL LLC called the "Incredible Aircraft door 

 seal" see aircraftdoorseals.com 

 

 He did give me a sample, but I did not   get a  Same g  [quote][b]

PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Door Seals - Again

I used both the original seals and then those sold by Alex DeDominicis and found those sold by Alex vastly superior and well worth the money.The doors close passivly yet still seal better than those supplied by vans.Just my individual experience.    728DD-

**************

It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

      (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)  [quote][b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Door Seals - Again

Hi Fellow builders...



There seems to be two ways to go about this...I am at the crossroads...first...the Deem's method of the seals on the FRAME of the door opening and an alternative that I am pursuing...the seals on the door but attached with aluminum strips held to the door edge with rivenuts, not tape...this allowed for the seals to be adjusted in or out to fit the door channel. This was done by a builder who I can't recall, but I think he had the Oregon Aero logo on the tail, not sure though,  Deems has it on his OSH 08 pics...he used the bulb seal, aftermarket product I presume ...very trick and very easy to replace the seals if needed...Deems, the rental car check is in the mail...promise...been slammed at work..hope Parker and Judy didn't miss Dinner!!! 



Rick Sked

40185

Goin to the hangar this weekend!!

do not archive

---

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

That would be Don O (for some reason his last name escapes me at the moment).  But he had his interior done by Abby so she might have some good info on it.



Michael



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msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

This looks to be the same stuff that Alex sells.  Not sure who is cheaper. If anyone has a quote from Aircraft Door Seals let us know.  I know Alex is $68 but not sure if that is per door or for the set.  Another $45 for the baggage door.



Michael



--

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

That is $68 per door.  I like them......



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Door Seals - Again

Here's a picture of Don Orrick's door seal.

DSC02917.JPG

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_________________
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs

chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

I installed mine as instructed.  I could barely close the  doors then from the outside.  I'd probably have pulled the interior door  handles off from the inside to close.  Pulled the seals off and am too now  looking for a suitable replacement seal.  Perhaps our door tolerances are  too close?

 Chuck

 Engine hung, prop installed, working on engine cowl  fitment.

 [quote]   ---

Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

Lenny

  6nbsp;

 That is the one that I saw at KOSH E It was a asterful job - although David mentioned that making the fiberglass trim pieces was quite a bit of work E He had Abby of Flightline *I think* make the seals out of the same material used in the interior E

  6nbsp;

 Cheers

  6nbsp;

 Les 6nbsp;



---

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Door Seals - Again

I had looked at Don's seals a while back.  This is one of the options we are considering since Abby also did our interior.  I was just hoping to drive to, and fix the root cause of the problem.  In my opinion, since many people experience this same problem, and have provided many different solutions, Vans should provide a 'factory' solution.  In talking with Don about his seals, he said the 'bulb' is smaller, and this is what he thinks fixed the problem.  If I remember correctly he also said that Van's factory airplane used a seal with a smaller bulb than what is supplied in the kit.



Our seals were installed per the plans, although orienting the seal in the opposite direction may help.



While placing the seal on the cabin top instead of the door may work, I wonder what the long term durability of the seal will be with people grabbing the door frame to enter and exit.  Would it matter if same seal were placed on the door?



Thanks, Jason

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

I do like the seal on the door, not the frame, just for

your reason of grabbing it accidentally.  I also like

that my seal is very tight and waterproof, but I sure

wouldn't argue if it had a slightly smaller bulb as you

noted that Don talked about.  I think the silicone seals

like what come with the kit would seal about as good

as you could ever find....but the size is just a tiny

bit thick to make the door close easily.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

jkreidler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com>

 

 I had looked at Don's seals a while back.  This is one of the options

 we are considering since Abby also did our interior.  I was just

 hoping to drive to, and fix the root cause of the problem.  In my

 opinion, since many people experience this same problem, and have

 provided many different solutions, Vans should provide a 'factory'

 solution.  In talking with Don about his seals, he said the 'bulb' is

 smaller, and this is what he thinks fixed the problem.  If I remember

 correctly he also said that Van's factory airplane used a seal with a

 smaller bulb than what is supplied in the kit.

 

 Our seals were installed per the plans, although orienting the seal

 in the opposite direction may help.

 

 While placing the seal on the cabin top instead of the door may work,

 I wonder what the long term durability of the seal will be with

 people grabbing the door frame to enter and exit.  Would it matter if

 same seal were placed on the door?

 

 Thanks, Jason

 

 -------- RV-10 Quick Build 4 Partner Build - Finishing

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2350#202350

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Door Seals - Again

If anyone is curious I requested a quote from Aircraft Door Seals and they came back at $69.95 each door and the baggage is $39.95 each plus S & H.  Alex is a couple bucks cheaper but if you have to order stuff from Alex anyway you would be better off getting them from him to save shipping.



Michael



--

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