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Leaking VDO fuel sender seals
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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Actually it only takes about 0.5% water to cause phase separation of  

E10, so for 24 gallons of E10 you would need just about a pint of  

water. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that the gasoline will meet  

its stated octane rating without the alcohol. Higher octane gasoline  

is more expensive, so the oil companies will probably produce the  

lowest octane gas they can and bring it up to its stated rating by  

adding the alcohol. If your engine can run on regular gas and you use  

this method to remove alcohol from premium gas, you might get away  

with it. For me, if I can't find alcohol free auto gas, I will use  

100LL avgas. Since the state of Michigan mandated on January 1st this  

year that all auto gasoline sold here must be contaminated with at  

least 10% alcohol, I've been burning nothing but avgas in my plane.

On Sep 4, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 So to take the ethanol out of 24 gallons of gas you need 12 gallons  

 of water. That's not messy at all. And while you are correct that  

 ethanol laced gas has less power and efficiency it does increase  

 octane and when you take it out of gas the fuels octane is at best  

 questionable.

 Not to worry though I'm sure we will read all about it in an in- 

 depth accident investigation at some point.

 ashontz wrote:

> http://www.fuel-testers.com/instructions_alcohol_fuel_test_kit.html

>

> Check the test kit. The process for ethanol removal is the same as  

> the test kit. Apparently 10cc of water is enough to dissolve all of  

> the ethanol out of 20cc of E10. I'm sure this is the method the guy  

> at our local chapter was using to remove ethanol from gas. Makes  

> sense to me.

>

> http://www.fuel-testers.com/MPG_gas_efficiency_E10_ethanol.html

>

> And you're not really costing yourself any money either by getting  

> rid of that garbage ethanol, the ethanol just robs you of power and  

> fuel efficiency by a considerable amount.

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

That's what this chemical engineer guy was doing. And that's how the test kit is determining the amount of ethanol in the E10, by forcing it out of solution and then comparing the the level vs what the deliniation line SHOULD be between the 10cc of water and the 20 cc of pure fuel. With pure fuel, that deliniation line would be at 10cc. If there's 10% ethanol (E10) then the line would show up at 12cc. Correct? How's that silly? That's how the test kit works. You drain water out of the gascolator. Correct. and the water lays at the bottom of the tank so you can drain it, correct? So what's the difference between that and adding water to fuel, letting it settle and in the process soak the ethanol out of solution and then draining all that crap out? That's something your wife does every Thanksgiving when she takes the turkey drippings, lets them sit and then takes the baster and skins the fat off the top, except in reverse.



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  Andy, I know we have had our differences on this list. But comparing draining water out of the tanks to adding water too remove ethanol is without a doubt the silliest thing I have ever seen you post.



When I drain the sumps I'm not reducing the octane of the fuel. Also, if it ever takes me more than 2 or 3 testers full of fuel to get all the water out of a tank I'm having all the fuel drained and start from scratch. I've had to do that twice since I started flying and I was there when my Grandfather had them drain all the fuel out of a LearJet because of it.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Bryan, thanks for chiming in. It would indeed work. I knw what you're saying about the octane rating, but in one of those links it stated that certain high octane rated gasolines had their octane before the contaminant (ethanol) was added and hence would not effect the octane rating after separation.

 	  bryanmmartin wrote: 	
		  Actually it only takes about 0.5% water to cause phase separation of  

E10, so for 24 gallons of E10 you would need just about a pint of  

water. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that the gasoline will meet  

its stated octane rating without the alcohol. Higher octane gasoline  

is more expensive, so the oil companies will probably produce the  

lowest octane gas they can and bring it up to its stated rating by  

adding the alcohol. If your engine can run on regular gas and you use  

this method to remove alcohol from premium gas, you might get away  

with it. For me, if I can't find alcohol free auto gas, I will use  

100LL avgas. Since the state of Michigan mandated on January 1st this  

year that all auto gasoline sold here must be contaminated with at  

least 10% alcohol, I've been burning nothing but avgas in my plane.

On Sep 4, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 So to take the ethanol out of 24 gallons of gas you need 12 gallons  

 of water. That's not messy at all. And while you are correct that  

 ethanol laced gas has less power and efficiency it does increase  

 octane and when you take it out of gas the fuels octane is at best  

 questionable.

 Not to worry though I'm sure we will read all about it in an in- 

 depth accident investigation at some point.

 ashontz wrote:

> http://www.fuel-testers.com/instructions_alcohol_fuel_test_kit.html

>

> Check the test kit. The process for ethanol removal is the same as  

> the test kit. Apparently 10cc of water is enough to dissolve all of  

> the ethanol out of 20cc of E10. I'm sure this is the method the guy  

> at our local chapter was using to remove ethanol from gas. Makes  

> sense to me.

>

> http://www.fuel-testers.com/MPG_gas_efficiency_E10_ethanol.html

>

> And you're not really costing yourself any money either by getting  

> rid of that garbage ethanol, the ethanol just robs you of power and  

> fuel efficiency by a considerable amount.

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

I'd like to be able to safely burn whatever fuel is available.  If 100ll is available, that'll be my first choice.  



But what if it isn't available?  I'd like to have the flexibility to use auto gas (that might or might not have ethanol in it) if I need to.



We don't know what the fuel availability will be a few years from now.  We should build our fuel systems today for what we might encounter in the future.



- Pat

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:11 am Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

That's more the spirit. I just threw this out there because it came up in an EAA meeting of ours and I thought it was interesting. EAA = EXPERIMENTAL Aircraft Association. This was an experiment that a guy ran that he had luck with. It's worth further investigation for sure on the lines of exactly what octane is the result, but it certainly seems like a promising way to remove a known contaminant (ethanol). Ethanol poses a number of problems, not just phase separation and water retention in solution leading to a foul running engine. It obviously breaks down seals and gaskets, cleans varnish and sludge buildup that may clog a fuel filter in flight etc... Personally, if I was running mo-gas I wouldn't want ethanol in it up in the air. I've had this E10 stuff foul my boat engine, at least there you can just anchor up and try to repeatedly restart and let it fluff and fart for 10 minutes til it clears itself. That's not something you can do in the air. And when I had that happen and took the fuel/water separator off and drained it, there was nothing to see, the fuel appeared fine, that was just the water in suspension in the ethanol, before outright phase separation. If that was a plane, the fuel would have appeared to have been fine on a pre-flight gascolator drain check.



 	  PatrickW wrote: 	
		  I'd like to be able to safely burn whatever fuel is available.  If 100ll is available, that'll be my first choice.  



But what if it isn't available?  I'd like to have the flexibility to use auto gas (that might or might not have ethanol in it) if I need to.



We don't know what the fuel availability will be a few years from now.  We should build our fuel systems today for what we might encounter in the future.



- Pat

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Patrick, you can build your fuel system to run with ethanol laced gas. But it won't be easy. You are going to have to confirm that every single item from the fuel cap to the engine is capable of dealing with the stuff. I've spent a lot of time going through the various catalogs and product websites and many of them don't say if their product is ethanol safe or not so that means you have to test it yourself.



That said I think that will change over the next few years as it becomes more and more of an issue for us places like ACS will start marking the products they carry as ethanol safe.



The primary problems with ethanol though is that it will always absorb water and it will always have less energy than gasoline.



There are too many certified planes out there for 100LL or some successor of it to ever go away completely and I'd be willing to bet that in the foreseeable future we will be able to purchase something without ethanol in it. God only knows what it will cost but the same could be said for mogas.



 	  PatrickW wrote: 	
		  I'd like to be able to safely burn whatever fuel is available.  If 100ll is available, that'll be my first choice.  



But what if it isn't available?  I'd like to have the flexibility to use auto gas (that might or might not have ethanol in it) if I need to.



We don't know what the fuel availability will be a few years from now.  We should build our fuel systems today for what we might encounter in the future.



- Pat

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Andy, what part of "You don't know what the Octane is after the removal of the ethanol," don't you understand?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

I think it is a mistake to assume we will forever be forced to deal 

with adulterated gas.  The alcohol movement got a lot of political 

support in the beginning, but today there is a lot of resistance to 

this idea.



The political arena will determine the future of alcohol in our 

gas.  This could change in just a few years to return to the old 

tried and true notion that gas pumps should pump just gasoline and 

alcohol should be reserved for hangar flying.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 06:28 AM 9/5/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Patrick, you can build your fuel system to run with ethanol laced 

gas. But it won't be easy. You are going to have to confirm that 

every single item from the fuel cap to the engine is capable of 

dealing with the stuff. I've spent a lot of time going through the 

various catalogs and product websites and many of them don't say if 

their product is ethanol safe or not so that means you have to test 

it yourself.



That said I think that will change over the next few years as it 

becomes more and more of an issue for us places like ACS will start 

marking the products they carry as ethanol safe.



The primary problems with ethanol though is that it will always 

absorb water and it will always have less energy than gasoline.



There are too many certified planes out there for 100LL or some 

successor of it to ever go away completely and I'd be willing to bet 

that in the foreseeable future we will be able to purchase something 

without ethanol in it. God only knows what it will cost but the same 

could be said for mogas.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

I apologize everyone. Gig's always right, I'm always wrong. It's just easier that way. LOL

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  Patrick, you can build your fuel system to run with ethanol laced gas. But it won't be easy. You are going to have to confirm that every single item from the fuel cap to the engine is capable of dealing with the stuff. 	




My intent is to build my fuel system to be ethanol tolerant, but of course I have learned a lot more since I started (I say that because I overlooked the fuel filler cap seals).   



A lot of builders (including myself) are using Summit braided steel fuel line (Summit says "our hose is designed to handle any fuel including methanol and nitromethane, oil, or coolant").  Does "methanol safe" also means "ethanol safe"...?  It's been about 20 years since I took organic chemistry, but I think so.  But still, testing is the only way to know for sure.  Maybe put a piece in a jar of ethanol for a few months and see if anything happens...



What about carb parts?  Is it safe to assume newer materials are alcohol tolerant?.  I have an MA3-SPA that's freshly rebuilt.  Just now I read the documentation that came with it, but it doesn't say anything about ethanol. 



Has anyone tested the VW sender seals?



We already know about the filler cap seal.... 



Gig - You're a bit closer to being done than I am.  Given what you know now, do you think your airplane would tolerate ethanol laced gas if some were put in by mistake? (granted that you prefer 100ll)  



Is there anybody out there who has been flying with an ethanol tolerant fuel system who can shed some light on what works and what doesn't...?



- Pat

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Sorry I know this is off topic but:::

Wire tension gauge?  I dont want to buy a WTG at $899.  What are you guys 

doing to calibrate the tension on your control cables.  I found sailboat 

stay wire gauges on the internet.  Costing $99.  I asked the dealer about 

using them on airplanes and was told that it would work ok but the gauge is 

for stainless steel wire and the reads would be off.

I can handle $99 not the $899.



SW

601XL

---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Steve,

I made my cable tension gage 5 years ago and it still provides accurate 

direct measurement

for cable tension from 10 to 40 lbs.  You could build one for less than $25.

See link,

www.macsmachine.com/html/tjhcabletools.htm



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



steve wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Sorry I know this is off topic but:::

 Wire tension gauge?  I dont want to buy a WTG at $899.  What are you 

 guys doing to calibrate the tension on your control cables.  I found 

 sailboat stay wire gauges on the internet.  Costing $99.  I asked the 

 dealer about using them on airplanes and was told that it would work 

 ok but the gauge is for stainless steel wire and the reads would be off.

 I can handle $99 not the $899.



 SW

 601XL

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Thanks to all that responded.

Larry McFarland,  I purchased your tow bar and nose wheel collar for my XL 

and I love the thing.  Your quality and prices are absolutely the best.

I would buy a tension gauge in a heartbeat if you produce them...

How about a drawing (plans) that you could sell?????



Steve Weston

N 9554 Z



---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals

Patrick, I don't have a clue if the system I have is ethanol safe. That's why the stuff worries me so much. Can the system be made safe? Of course it can but there are just so many things other than just the fuel lines I'm not willing to take the chance and I certainly don't what to test every single item in the fuel system.



This thread alone has had people with VDO sender seals failing and people that have had fuel caps that are giving them problems.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

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