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planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

.hmmessage P{margin:0px;padding:0px}body.hmmessage{FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma}.hmmessage P{margin:0px;padding:0px}body.hmmessage{FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma}Well folks I'm not a happy camper C



Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10 C and there is crazing where some clamps were on the sides C photo & details below. So here are my questions:



1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?



1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?



2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it doesn't keep creeping.



The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no problems using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield  was installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only rubbing alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit sand paper.



The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing process. At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's C he has requested pictures.



Any help or suggestion would be appreciated C



Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)

See how Windows Mobile brings your life togetgo/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now

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AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

I am not flying yet, but had the same thing happen to me with one of my side windows. It is really frustrating and it seems 10x as big a deal with the front windscreen. It has not spread on mine, but it is not really subject to vibration yet. I am leaving it, but on the main windscreen, I would have to think about it. Stop drilling is always an option and works well on plexi. I did it on an old Piper Archer that I had.



My three big beefs with the basically superb RV10 design are: 1)the structural windows that cannot be removed and replaced easily  2) the riveted down floors in the back with no inspection holes (I made some)  and  3) electric pitch trim w/o manual backup

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Same thing happened to me.  I have seen no growth since I have been flying…..~50 hrs.  

     

Rene' Felker  

RV-10 N423CF Flying  

  

801-721-6080      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith

 Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 10:58 PM

 To: RV 10 list

 Subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing  

  

  

   

Well folks I'm not a happy camper,

 

 Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below. So here are my questions:

 

 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?

 

 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?

 

 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it doesn't keep creeping.

 

 The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no problems using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield  was installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only rubbing alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit sand paper.

 

 The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing process. At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's, he has requested pictures.

 

 Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,

 

 Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)      

  

See how Windows Mobile brings your life togetgo/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now  

       [quote][b]

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Mike, You forgot the gull wing door design that can depart the aircraft

when the latch is disengaged.



Robin

Do Not Archive

--

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Why does the crazing occur?   Is it the product?  Or process?

I plan on using 3M 2216 for my windows. 



Dave Leikam

RV-10 #40496

N89DA (Reserved)

Muskego, WI



---

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Amen on the Gull Wing Door

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

My very uneducated guess......heat/compression.  It only happened where I

had the windshield clamped and extra Weldon under the clamp.



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing

with window installation is the use of clamps.  I did use some

clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have

only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.

Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to

hold position. I had no crazing.



I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't

maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps

not spreading the force out enough on the windows.



I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than

necessary to hold the window in position.  Don't try to

squeeze out excess glue, just position it.  I don't

know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,

but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person

said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least

that they had used clamps.  I'm betting this is the cause

somehow.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



Vernon Smith wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well folks I'm not a happy camper,

 

 Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is 

 crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below. So 

 here are my questions:

 

 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?

 

 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?

 

 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from 

 creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it 

 doesn't keep creeping.

 

 The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no problems 

 using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield  was 

 installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks 

 with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only rubbing 

 alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no 

 nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit 

 sand paper.

 

 The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing process. 

 At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's, he 

 has requested pictures.

 

 Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,

 

 Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 See how Windows Mobile brings your life 

 togetgo/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Don't know for sure, but just assuming that the clamping pressure increases

the temperature of the Weldon during the curing process.  It would not take

much initial clamp pressure to do that once the Weldon starts to expand

during the curing process.  I would add that in my case I wiped off the

excess Weldon except for the area under the clamp. 



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

I think I wiped off mine too....tried to fillet the inside, and

get rid of gobs on the outside.  That stuff dries so tough

that you wouldn't want to have to do all the work after

it cures.  You're probably right....heat, pressure, and

probably the chemical makeup, probably all acting together

when clamped.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Rene Felker wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Don't know for sure, but just assuming that the clamping pressure increases

 the temperature of the Weldon during the curing process.  It would not take

 much initial clamp pressure to do that once the Weldon starts to expand

 during the curing process.  I would add that in my case I wiped off the

 excess Weldon except for the area under the clamp. 

 

 Rene' Felker

 RV-10 N423CF Flying

 801-721-6080

 

 --

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Hi Tim C

 I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during install of your window.  All clamps were padded with layers of masking tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after clamping C but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an interesting idea.

 I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on) and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water) to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.

 As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.

 Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:

 Vern C Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on both of our RV-10's. 

Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had is that the crazing does 

not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are removed. scott at van's

 Thanks C

 Vern Smith (#324)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu C 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500

 From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>

 You know C the common thread I see when people bring up crazing

 with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some

 clamps C but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have

 only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.

 Either way C I didn't use tons of pressure C just used them to

 hold position. I had no crazing.

 I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't

 maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps C or perhaps

 not spreading the force out enough on the windows.

 I'd say C pad the clamps C and don't clamp any tighter than

 necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to

 squeeze out excess glue C just position it. I don't

 know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem C

 but I do notice that in almost all cases C the person

 said it either crazed where the clamps were C or at least

 that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause

 somehow.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 Vernon Smith wrote:

 > Well folks I'm not a happy camper C

 > 

 > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10 C and there is 

 > crazing where some clamps were on the sides C photo & details below. So 

 > here are my questions:

 > 

 > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?

 > 

 > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?

 > 

 > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from 

 > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it 

 > doesn't keep creeping.

 > 

 > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no problems 

 > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was 

 > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks 

 > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only rubbing 

 > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no 

 > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit 

 > sand paper.

 > 

 > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing process. 

 > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's C he 

 > has requested pictures.

 > 

 > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated C

 > 

 > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)

 > 

 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > See how Windows Mobile brings your life 

 > togetgo/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now

 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > 

 > 

Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!

There aren't that many things you can clean it with.  Kerosene

is one.  There IS one thing that I used that I can't endorse, but

can report on.  During painting we used PPG DCX330 degreaser

extensively in prep of things, INCLUDING all the window edges,

and we tested it on the windshield scraps to make sure it wouldn't

craze.  So maybe that is an option.  But yeah, NO SOLVENTS on

the windshield for cleaning....that's definitely not a good idea.



mild soap and water, maybe...but I'd be careful of anything

else.  kerosene obviously wouldn't be good pre-cleaning for

paint....but might not be so bad pre-installation.  Also,

I'd leave any plastic on windows as long as possible.



Tim



Vernon Smith wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Hi Tim,

  

 I used the same hand type clamps as shown on your web site during 

 install of your window.  All clamps were padded with layers of masking 

 tape. There is no sign of deflection of the acrylic during or after 

 clamping, but maybe hand springe clamps are not the best choice. The 

 thought that direct pressure on the Weld-on cause it to set off is an 

 interesting idea.

  

 I am in contact with IPS technical service (they manufacture Weld-on) 

 and they have the pictures also. It was suggested to try using a diluted 

 detergent (two drops on non ammonium based dish soap in gallon of water) 

 to clean the mating surfaces instead of the rubbing alcohol. Also there 

 may be a need to anneal the acrylic before installing to normalize the 

 internal stresses of the plastic. They also said Weld-On 10 was a good 

 choice for gluing acrylic to fiberglass.

  

 As for repair they are working on it & I will pass along anything I learn.

  

 Van's did get back with me and here is Scott's reply:

  

 /Vern, Thanks for the photos. This looks very similar to what we saw on 

 both of our RV-10's.

 Spoke with the rest of the tech crew here and all input that we've had 

 is that the crazing does

 not 'move' significantly after the weld-on sets up and clamps are 

 removed. scott at van's/

 // 

 // 

 /Thanks,/

 // 

 /Vern Smith (#324)/

  

  

  > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:16:38 -0500

  > From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com

  > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

  > Subject: Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing

  >

  > 

  >

  > You know, the common thread I see when people bring up crazing

  > with window installation is the use of clamps. I did use some

  > clamps, but not very tight clamps on mine....I think I may have

  > only used those squeeze clamps that you open with your hands.

  > Either way, I didn't use tons of pressure, just used them to

  > hold position. I had no crazing.

  >

  > I'm starting to wonder if the people having crazing aren't

  > maybe using a bit more pressure on their clamps, or perhaps

  > not spreading the force out enough on the windows.

  >

  > I'd say, pad the clamps, and don't clamp any tighter than

  > necessary to hold the window in position. Don't try to

  > squeeze out excess glue, just position it. I don't

  > know WHY clamping with pressure would add to the problem,

  > but I do notice that in almost all cases, the person

  > said it either crazed where the clamps were, or at least

  > that they had used clamps. I'm betting this is the cause

  > somehow.

  >

  > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

  >

  >

  >

  > Vernon Smith wrote:

  > > Well folks I'm not a happy camper,

  > >

  > > Just finished installing my windshield with Weld-on 10, and there is

  > > crazing where some clamps were on the sides, photo & details below. So

  > > here are my questions:

  > >

  > > 1: How common is crazing at the glue joint?

  > >

  > > 1: If left as is will the crazing run across the window?

  > >

  > > 2: Is there anything (other than replacement) that will keep it from

  > > creeping? The crazing is small and can easily be hidden as long as it

  > > doesn't keep creeping.

  > >

  > > The fine print: I have installed all the other windows with no 

 problems

  > > using foam blocks and straps to clamp it in place. The windshield was

  > > installed at 80 degrees. Main pressure was from a strap & foam blocks

  > > with additional clamps on sides (the area of the crazing.) Only 

 rubbing

  > > alcohol was used for cleaning. Edges sanded completely smooth with no

  > > nick or scratches. The gluing surfaces were roughed up with 240 grit

  > > sand paper.

  > >

  > > The crazing was noticed 1 1/2 hours after I started the gluing 

 process.

  > > At which time I removed the side clamps. And called Scott at Van's, he

  > > has requested pictures.

  > >

  > > Any help or suggestion would be appreciated,

  > >

  > > Vern Smith (#324 finishing sort of)

  > >

  > >

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Mineral spirits are recommended by one of the windscreen companies.



Michael



--

pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

I work with acrylics every day in my job as an engineer in the medical

device industry.  Acrylics in general can stand stress, or exposure to

alcohol (or other solvents) but not at the same time. They, like many

plastics, are subject to a phenomenom known as "stress cracking", which

starts as crazing.  It is caused by the material having stress (either

molded in or induced by a load, such as a clamp) while being exposed to a

chemical, and the result is a crack at a stress far lower than would

normally cause a crack to start.



The good news is that once the solvent and/or the stress is removed, the

crazing stops and is not likely to spread, so if the crazing doesn't show,

you probably won't have to replace the windshield.



Jack Phillips

#40610

Wings



--

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

I knew acetone was out and now nix the rubbing alcohol. Though rubbing alcohol was OK because it is recommended by Lancair. But they don't use Weld-On. 



At least 4 out of the 5 windows turned out. Oh well it's only time and money.



Rene C Tim C Dave and Michael thanks for the feedback.



Vern 

do not archive 



[quote] Date: Thu C 11 Sep 2008 15:29:06 -0500

 From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Weld-on 10 & crazing

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>

 

 Ahhhhhh!!!! You used rubbing alcohol!!! That's a definite no-no!

 There aren't that many things you can clean it with.  Kerosene

 is one.

See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home C work C or on the go. See Now   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol? If there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.  Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil content. How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?



Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in the edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic, chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved by scuffing it for a better bond.



I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on" joint, any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a smaller scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and rejoined with the curing of the weld-on.



This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber my explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made sense and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but it sounds good huh?



Prove me wrong...  



Rick Sked

40185



do not archive



 

---

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Rick BTW



461?

462?

463?



Do not archive



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

seipel(at)seznam.cz
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Not sure exactly what type of "plastic" our windows are made of, but the 

list at the link below gives the effects of using various 

solvents/substances on acrylic plexiglass and I figure ours is pretty 

close.  It's a pretty inclusive list, and I used it as a guide for 

figuring out what substances to avoid (anything with an "N" in both 

columns).  Isopropyl alcohol is not so good.  Ethyl alcohol is better if 

you can find it without any additives. 



http://www.ridoutplastics.com/plexiglas-chemical-resistance.html



PJ Seipel

RV-10 #40032



Rick Sked wrote:

[quote] 



 Are we talking industrial grade (Lowes) Isopropol alcohol or rubbing alcohol? If there was a solvent that was the least invasive, least etching, least anything in so far as damaging polystyrene/acrylic products it's Isopropol alcohol.  Kerosene or JP-4/8 is a petrol based solvent, "diesel fuel" that has an oil content. How could kerosene be used to degrease and make ready for an adhesive when it leaves an obvious oil film/residue behind?



 Also consider the finish on the edge of your plastic. I used a series of polishing grits to make the edge of the transparencies almost as optically clear as the rest of the material..My thinking was if you leave microscopic lines in the edge of the material and your using an expansive (and under pressure), thermic, chemical bond, why leave the adhesive an entry point to work on the lateral surface where the surface tension of the area has already been weakened/relieved by scuffing it for a better bond.



 I really think that if you don't polish the edges just like the aluminum, apply pressure and an adhesive that attacks the material to create the "weld-on" joint, any small void will crack or "craze" just like a stress riser but on a smaller scale, hence the "crazing" FWIW yes the crazing stops, becasue the adhesive has entered the void and has cured. The microcracks have been formed and rejoined with the curing of the weld-on.



 This all just Bu#$ $h*T...I barely passed chemistry, (don't ask but rememeber my explosive safety background) I ace'd physics/trig and geometry, that made sense and hated anything else that wasn't represented by material evidence...but it sounds good huh?



 Prove me wrong...  



 Rick Sked

 40185



 do not archive



  

 ---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

64 then 62 I don't even know what the new AFSC's are do you?

---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: Weld-on 10 & crazing

Any thoughts on using Dawn dishwashing detergent to clean prior to glueing?



Rick Sked

40185 moving to the airport this weekend!!

---

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