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toe in/toe out

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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: toe in/toe out

one more thing to keep the discussion going.   Camber = toe in while in the three point position, true?



when I am moving the plane around, into to the hangar etc, rolling backward causes the wheels to spread....toe out rolling backward.  Rolling forward causes the wheels to move in tight against the frame....toe out rolling forward.  When I am in the plane landing, taxing etc, I don't get any sense of "darting" one way or the other and I often touch down with one wheel then the other.



on the sight picture for straight ahead, my CFI/Cropduster couldn't get it right until I made a mark up by the appropriate "rocker arm" blister for alignment, then there were no more chirps on touch down..



any thoughts.



John Kerr

-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> 



[quote] 

 

 Bradley, 

 I am a strong advocate of toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't be 

 achieved. I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have? 

 

 Lowell 

 ---

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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: toe in/toe out

Correction  "toe in rolling forward"



John Kerr



-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: kerrjohna(at)comcast.net 



[quote] 

 

 one more thing to keep the discussion going. Camber = toe in while in the 

 three point position, true? 

 

 when I am moving the plane around, into to the hangar etc, rolling backward 

 causes the wheels to spread....toe out rolling backward. Rolling forward causes 

 the wheels to move in tight against the frame....toe out rolling forward. When 

 I am in the plane landing, taxing etc, I don't get any sense of "darting" one 

 way or the other and I often touch down with one wheel then the other. 

 

 on the sight picture for straight ahead, my CFI/Cropduster couldn't get it right 

 until I made a mark up by the appropriate "rocker arm" blister for alignment, 

 then there were no more chirps on touch down.. 

 

 any thoughts. 

 

 John Kerr 

 

 

 -------------- Original message -------------- 

 From: "Lowell Fitt" 

 

 > 

 > 

 > Bradley, 

 > I am a strong advocate of toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't be 

 > achieved. I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have? 

 > 

 > Lowell 

 > ---

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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: toe in/toe out

Mine does the same thing. After pushing it back into the tie-down, I lift

the right gear and put the wheel 1-2" in to relieve the bungies.



As for straight on landing, I glance at the slip/skid ball on short final,

and mentally mark the nose position based on that. I haven't side-loaded the

tires, yet (!).



Bradley



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janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: toe in/toe out

My Series 5 with spring gear seems the same when moving around the hangar 

but no tendancy to wander in anger. John A.





From:  kerrjohna(at)comcast.net

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: toe in/toe out

Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 2006 04:10:52 +0000




one more thing to keep the discussion going.   Camber = toe in while in the 

three point position, true?



when I am moving the plane around, into to the hangar etc, rolling backward 

causes the wheels to spread....toe out rolling backward.  Rolling forward 

causes the wheels to move in tight against the frame....toe out rolling 

forward.  When I am in the plane landing, taxing etc, I don't get any sense 

of "darting" one way or the other and I often touch down with one wheel then 

the other.



on the sight picture for straight ahead, my CFI/Cropduster couldn't get it 

right until I made a mark up by the appropriate "rocker arm" blister for 

alignment, then there were no more chirps on touch down..



any thoughts.



John Kerr

-------------- Original message --------------

From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



[quote]



Bradley,

I am a strong advocate of toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't be

achieved. I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have?



Lowell

---

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: toe in/toe out

John,



Mine also - wheels out going backward and in going forward and I know for 

sure it is slightly toed out.  I put spring gear on as a retrofit and paid 

particular attention to wheel alighnment.  I tweeked the tube gear to 

correct a significant toe in before the spring gear installation.



Lowell

---

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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: toe in/toe out

Lowell,

Did you make a typo here? You described toe-in, and called it toe-out.

Bradley



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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: toe in/toe out

Bradley you ask a good question.  I made an attempt to check the alignment 

for accuracy's sake this morning, but got erratic results.  I tried to use 

the magnetic laser pointer against the rotor method suggested, but found 

that my laser level beam is not parallel to the magnetic base.



I then tried to find the documents I generated when aligning the tube gear 

and failed at that, but  found the Tubo Cad drawing I made to digest the 

measurements I made when I installed the aluminum spring gear.  If you have 

Turbo Cad or any of the other drawing programs it is easy to determine 

angles simply by drawing the mesurements and asking the program to show the 

angles.



I followed the alignment procedures discussed in one of the issues of the 

old "Kitfox Times" and bent the tube gear to give a fraction of a degree toe 

out.  It was with the tube gear that I saw the gear tracking phenomenon 

described.  It was obvious with the bungee gear as you could see the stretch 

of the bungees and the sag of the cross arms when pulling backward and the 

opposite forward.



The drawing of the AL gear shows only an unloaded measurement which gives a 

toe in of nearly 4 degrees. This after installation and with the airplane 

still supported on jacks.  I was alarmed at this and contacted Hammerhead - 

at the time an offshoot of Grove simlilar to Kitfox spinning off from Avid 

and now defunct - and they said the bends in the gear were designed to give 

toe in unloaded, but would track parallel or slightly toe out on loading.  I 

was not totally thrilled with the response as first contact on landing is 

with the gear in the  fully unloaded position - toed in at 4 degrees.  As I 

think about it now, this may be the all too frequent brush off  comment we 

hear, but at the time it tended to satisfy me.  And has since as the 

tracking on landing is quite benign.



I always had used the method of wheels off and using a square on the axles 

to determine data points for determining toe in or out and with the bungee 

gear this was possible due to the positive stop with the bungees fully 

retracted.  With the spring gear, this method won't work as the gear doesn't 

have a positive  stop, hence my unloaded measurements.  I will have to give 

this a little thought.



Another method that works with the bungee gear is to put a piece of masking 

tape on the rear center of the tire and mark the center of the tire with a 

pen.  Using a square or laser level transfer that mark to the floor.  Do the 

same with the other tire. Then push the airplane forward to rotate the tires 

so the mark is in the same relative position  forward and mark the spots on 

the hangar floor, again using the square or laser level.  This assumes that 

the gear are fully stopped against the fuselage belly for both measurements. 

Measuring the distance between the marks will give a quick rough idea of the 

alignment and approximate angles can be calculated.  Again this won't work 

with spring gear due to the tracking phenonemon.



So in short, I don't know what to say about my spring gear.  However, I was 

very careful with the tube gear alignment as I hadn't flown yet and it was a 

topic of discussion on the list and was, as most, somewhat fearful of my new 

creation.  It did track as described, though, when moving it around the 

hanger or ramp.  And to be strictly accurate, I don't really have reference 

points to accurately describe tracking with the spring gear



Lowell

---

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