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RED ALERT - Safety Review
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tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Got my Fall 2008 issue of RPA's Red  Alert Magazine today.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

I enjoyed reading Alan Cockrell's  extensive review of Safety starting on page 11. 

  

A few comments from my experience on  the insurance side: 

1)  The graph of Total Mishaps  on page 11 is daunting:  73 Yak accidents and 26  Nanchangs. 

Yak 55, Yak 54 (Competition and  Airshow), Yak 3, 7, 9 and 11 (Fighter) aircraft are included in that 73  total. 

The numbers look quite a bit  different if you exclude those significantly different airplanes and  operations. 

Removing the Airshow for Hire  aircraft, along with the Fighters presents a more meaningful  comparison. 

Insurance is obviously handled  differently for Airshow and big Fighter airplanes for just this  reason. 

  

2)  NTSB type statistics  unfortunately do not include A LOT of accidents that never get  reported. 

Some involve completely destroyed  aircraft, some are minor mishaps. 

The insurance claims people may or  may not get involved in all of these. 

  

3)  I noticed a few accidents  got double reported.   

2 airplanes in a taxi mishap each  get an NTSB record that might tend to over report the history as 2 versus 1  mishap. 

  

4)  Jammed Elevators - Way to  go RPA!  Really turned that situation around. 

In fact, why don't we all make a  plan to shine a light in the tail cone this very week and do a  "FOD-Check". 

  

5)  Landing Gear continues to  be the #1 source of damage to RPA type aircraft. 

My Yak has a Landing Gear Warning  Buzzer (blares in the intercom)... does yours?  It only cost me a couple  hundred bucks. 

Yes it goes off once in a while in  formation as I retard the power to idle, but usually only when climbing out with  a Cj...  

  

Thanks Alan for taking the time to  collect all of this data. 

Tj 

  

---------------------------

Thomas  Johnson, Airpower Insurance, LLC 

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />36 West Ocotillo  Road,  Phoenix, AZ  85013-1235 

Tel:  602-628-2701     or    Toll Free: 866-475-9199

E:  tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net)   or  Fax:   623-321-5843            

Free Quote:   www.airpowerinsurance.com

  

*  Privacy  Information 

** NO insurance can be started or  changed by email until confirmed in writing. 

 

  

  

  

   [quote][b]

ByronMFox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

In a message dated 10/6/08 5:48:48 PM, tomjohnson(at)cox.net writes:

 

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 5)  Landing Gear continues to be the #1 source of damage to RPA type aircraft.

  My Yak has a Landing Gear Warning Buzzer (blares in the intercom)... does yours?  It only cost me a couple hundred bucks.

 	


 

 Please describe how your gear horn works, Tom, and tell us where it can be obtained.   I assume there's a micro switch on the throttle activated when the gear handle is in the up position. Thanks, Blitz

**************

New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!

      (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001)  [quote][b]

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Yessir.  

Direct from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty.

Part #:  11-01943



Simple, cheap.



Tj

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

TJ:



The device allows for single or dual input.  How did you wire it for the CJ?



Craig

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Craig:

Since my YAK lacks both flaps and intercom, I only used one of the inputs.



Senses a throttle position switch, and power applied to the GEAR DOWN lights.  If there is no power to the gear down lights and throttle retarded it puts a tone into the headset (also powers a warning light if desired).



For a Yak 52 it can sense gear down indications, or flaps out before gear down.  Throttle retarded with gear not down OR flaps out with gear not down = WARNING.



A few quick flights and I adjusted the throttle switch so I get very few False Alarms.



I think Tom Elliot devised a similar system?

One could make a home-made system with a switch and a little warning horn.  



TJ

bhancock(at)worldwidewarb
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

On Oct 7, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

For a Yak 52 it can sense gear down indications, or flaps out before gear down. 

Throttle retarded with gear not down OR flaps out with gear not down = WARNING. 	




In the L-39 the gear warning horn sounds if the gear are up with full flaps retracted.  This type of circuitry would seem to be ideal and eliminate any false warnings created by the throttle setting.  What, in my opinion, you don't want to create is familiarity with a warning system through false alarms.  On the L-39 it most often happens on a go-around when gear up is selected before flaps 25...gets your attention every time!   AND, it is EXTREMELY loud and uncomfortable which motivates you to deal with it right away.

Just a thought,

Barry



 

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

office (909) 606-4444

cell (949) 300-5510

www.worldwidewarbirds.com





This email message and any attachment(s) are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain proprietary and/or confidential company information which may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe you are not the intended recipient(s), please contact us at info(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (info(at)worldwidewarbirds.com) by reply email and destroy the original message and any copies of the message as well as any attachment(s) to the original. 



 [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

It's a great thought.  Sadly some YAKS do not have flaps.  

 

Mark Bitterlich

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry Hancock

Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 12:05 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review



On Oct 7, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:

	For a Yak 52 it can sense gear down indications, or flaps out before gear down.



	Throttle retarded with gear not down OR flaps out with gear not down = WARNING.

In the L-39 the gear warning horn sounds if the gear are up with full flaps retracted.  This type of circuitry would seem to be ideal and eliminate any false warnings created by the throttle setting.  What, in my opinion, you don't want to create is familiarity with a warning system through false alarms.  On the L-39 it most often happens on a go-around when gear up is selected before flaps 25...gets your attention every time!   AND, it is EXTREMELY loud and uncomfortable which motivates you to deal with it right away.



Just a thought,



Barry



Barry Hancock



Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.



office (909) 606-4444



cell (949) 300-5510



www.worldwidewarbirds.com



This email message and any attachment(s) are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain proprietary and/or confidential company information which may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe you are not the intended recipient(s), please contact us at info(at)worldwidewarbirds.com by reply email and destroy the original message and any copies of the message as well as any attachment(s) to the original.

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

We've gone around and around on this subject for years.

There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.



So nobody does anything.

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

 	  tjyak50 wrote: 	
		  We've gone around and around on this subject for years.

There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.



So nobody does anything. 	




Build it and they will come.

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

It has been available from Aircraft Spruce for years:



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/flightechWarnDeviceII.php

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Yeah, kind of like Carbon Monoxide scrubbers.

doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

What is needed is a cheap and simple ground proximity warning system.   I believe the time for that is coming.  We're seeing more and more systems incorporated in cars that sense proximity.  When these are small, reliable and cheap, putting them into an aircraft will be a no-brainer.  

 

Mark Bitterlich



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Tim Gagnon

Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 9:38 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review




tjyak50 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   We've gone around and around on this subject for years.

 There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.



 So nobody does anything.


	




Build it and they will come.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=207999#207999

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Speaking of GPWS, Elmar sent me this reference which clearly should be if interest to us all.  Couple this puppy dog to a throttle, flap (if you have flaps) and gear switch and you really have a viable and complete system that should have very little false alerts.  Shoot... all  by itself I like the idea of having it!  Putting it together with gear up or down makes it even harder to resist.  

  

 I think that anyone who purchases this piece of equipment ought to have their insurance rates reduced.  Are you listening Tom?  If you want to talk about INCENTIVE, then reducing insurance on your aircraft for the rest of the entire time you own it is something that will gain attention in a hurry.  Any Insurance Agent call tell you (and of course he would be right) that preventing gear up accidents in our individual aircraft helps us all, there is nothing quite like lowering your insurance rates for being so helpful in the first place!  

  

 If you think this is a shameless attempt to influence Tom .... you're absolutely correct.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

  



 

  From: Elmar Hegenauer [mailto:elmar.h(at)shaw.ca]

Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 3:25 PM

To: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E

Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

  

Hi Mark,



how are you doing?



I had the same problem with my Nanchang

several years ago and had a GPWS installed.



It has a radar transducer and when I come close

to the ground (between 150 and 100 ft.) with the

gear up the Bitching Betty yells at me.



Here comes the link to the manufacturer's website:



http://www.flyingsafer.com/2037.htm



Hope that helps a bit.



cheers



Elmar

 [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

You referring to a WOW switch coupled to a radar altimeter?

Doc



--

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Fine.

Install it and I will get you a discount off your Hull insurance premium.



W.O.W. switch won't work in a Yak.



I got MY gear warning system installed, but mostly because I am not really all that good at flying..

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

but mostly because I am not really all that good at flying..[/quote]



Don't let him fool you....I've seen him across the circle and he's lying.



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Guys,

 As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been available for years.  The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled cost and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to me".  TJ and I have talked about all this before.  But if we are going to to drag this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my opinion, knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.   

   

 At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want to be proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across the board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums.  This upcharge would be refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.  Reading TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could enjoy a reduction of our annual premiums also.  As unpopular as it may be to suggest yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may be the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the problem of gear up landings.  

   

 Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt with in another manner.

  

 Always Yakin,

 Doug

 On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)>

 



tjyak50 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   We've gone around and around on this subject for years.

 There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.



 So nobody does anything.


	


 

Build it and they will come.





Read this topic online here:



[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999[/url]

 

-- 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp

Phone 509-826-4610

Fax 509-826-3644



  [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

It's the 450 hp 50.

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

I'd love to hear your logic on why the UPCHARGE is necessary Doug.  Given that the amount that insurance people pay OUT is directly tied to the rates we are charged to have it in the first place, this practice is not likely in any way to change.  Insurance companies are there to make a profit.  In order to lower insurance rates because of the installation of gear warning systems, it would have to be shown that a certain percentage of the accident payouts were due to gear up landings or gear being raised on the deck.  If the majority of the insurance payout is due to other factors such as the "WING OFF" light coming on, or approaching the deck at a 90 degree angle, then no one is going to be interested in giving us a discount.  

Again, the only real way insurance people will give any kind of discount is if it is a proven fact that installing the gear warning systems will save them MORE MONEY than not having it INCLUDING the discount.  

So that said.... right now... with no gear warning system in the majority of our aircraft, the insurance company is charging us a certain rate based on aircraft value and accident statistics.  Period.  Asking us to pay MORE right now means that they simply make MORE profit.  If we cough up $1500 and install the system, they give us back the UPCHARGE and are back to making what they were before PLUS the benefit of less accident rates, which over time... if successful and if people don't wreck their aircraft for a lot of other reasons SHOULD EVENTUALLY see us getting better insurance rates.  

As it appears to me, an UPCHARGE done in the method you suggest just appears to me to be a method of using us, the customer to provide insurance to the insurance company that their profits remain completely stable with zero risk to them.  Of COURSE the insurance company would like that idea.  Who wouldn't? 

Just as an aside, I have owned my YAK-50 for just short of 10 years now.  In that period of time, I have paid out just about 50% of the original purchase price of the aircraft in insurance.  Admittedly the first two years my insurance rates were simply off the chart because I only had 100 hours of tail dragger time and zero time in type.  That's a rate that is about 5 times higher than my home insurance.  That said, I'd be interested in hearing why an upcharge would be a good thing. 

Mark

________________________________

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of doug sapp

Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:12 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Guys,

As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been available for years.  The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled cost and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to me".  TJ and I have talked about all this before.  But if we are going to to drag this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my opinion, knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.   

At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want to be proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across the board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums.  This upcharge would be refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.  Reading TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could enjoy a reduction of our annual premiums also.  As unpopular as it may be to suggest yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may be the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the problem of gear up landings.  

Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt with in another manner.

Always Yakin,

Doug

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net> wrote:

	tjyak50 wrote:

	> We've gone around and around on this subject for years.

	> There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.

	>

	> So nobody does anything.

	Build it and they will come.

	Read this topic online here:

	http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=207999#207999

	-- 

	Always Yakin,

	Doug Sapp

	Phone 509-826-4610

	Fax 509-826-3644

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Someone yesterday said a WOW switch would not work on the YAK? Why? We are talking about a weight on wheels switch. I disables the up circuit on the gear handle. Since we have a manual slide lock a simple micro circuit could be added to the slide lock that when there is weight on the wheels and the slide lock is open there is gear warning horn or beep beep in the head set. With enough bucks you could even have a synthetic “Bitching Betty” saying “check gear, check gear”. (or whatever you want to say, like” take your &*^%$#(at) hands of the gear handle!”) Yes, when you slide the slide lock open for TO you would get that warning also. For a few folks I have seen TO, that may not be such a bad idea either. The radar altimeter could also be incorporated for a ground proximity warning also on landing warning of gear up landing when there is no weight on the wheels.  

Just a thought.  

Doc  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp

 Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:12 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review  

Guys,  

As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been available for years.  The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled cost and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to me".  TJ and I have talked about all this before.  But if we are going to to drag this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my opinion, knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.     

At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want to be proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across the board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums.  This upcharge would be refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.  Reading TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could enjoy a reduction of our annual premiums also.  As unpopular as it may be to suggest yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may be the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the problem of gear up landings.    

Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt with in another manner.  

Always Yakin,  

Doug  

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)> wrote:  

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)>

 tjyak50 wrote:

 > We've gone around and around on this subject for years.

 > There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.

 >

 > So nobody does anything.

 Build it and they will come.

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=207999#207999

 -- 

 Always Yakin,

 Doug Sapp

 Phone 509-826-4610

 Fax 509-826-3644   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
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