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vvkidd(at)mindspring.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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First flight was 10/6/08.
Zenith Zodiac CH601XL N922VK
Charleston, WV, CRW RW 23, Winds 230(at)3
Turned left X-wind and encountered a ‘heavy’ left wing. Required full Right aileron deflection to roll back to level on downwind. Continued to require Right aileron to remain level.
Rudder and Elevator seem OK.
Encountered same ‘Heavy’ problem on Left Base.
Rolled out on Final with a smooth approach at about 70.
Touch down was very smooth, a squeaker.
Have checked all specs: fore and aft measurements on wing, wing attachment, rigging of ailerons, flaps etc. Haven't found the problem yet.
Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the right. Don't know why yet.
Anyone else experienced this situation or have any ideas?
Victor
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psm(at)att.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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Hi Victor,
Just a couple of dumb questions.
Do you have aileron trim?
Are flaps firmly held in place? Does flap position impact the heavy left wing?
My only comment is the obvious point that a Zodiac with a pilot and
no passenger/copilot will be heavy on the left side. It is not clear
to me from you comments whether this CG offset to the left relates to
your problem or not.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close
At 05:03 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
Quote: | Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the
right. Don't know why yet.
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jonathan(at)entry.co.za Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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Are you sure the Flaps are not asymetrical? Sounds like this could be the
problem, if it is only on downwind base and final? Is the amount of Aileron
deflection correct?
In my XL I have never even experience the left wing heavy syndrome, and looking
at the rim tab, after landing, it is perfectly flat. The only time I need to use
the aileron trim tab is when I use more fuel out of one tank than the other.
That said, I do use rudder AND aileron most of the time, an especialy on final,
when it is very gusty.
Quote: |
Turned left X-wind and encountered a 'heavy' left wing.
Required full Right aileron deflection to roll back to
level on downwind. Continued to require Right aileron to remain level.
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vvkidd(at)mindspring.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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Aileron deflection is within limits 11.5 +/- 1 deg. both sides. Can't find any problem with flaps.
I've only had two flights both in the pattern both with the same heavy wing problem. I do not have aileron trim.
Thaks,
Victor
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vvkidd(at)mindspring.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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No aileron trim. Flaps are filmly in palce and do not droop. On the second flight I had a fellow builder on board, had to go to experience for help, he felt that he left wing wasn't developing as much lift as the right.
This is not due to CG. After the 1st lf turn on climg-out, I have to full right aileron to level the plane. Some rgt aileron is required on downwind. Increeased speed seems to add to the problem. On final at abt 60, the controls seem almost normal.
Victor
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K Dilks
Joined: 22 Sep 2008 Posts: 108 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Control Problem |
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Sorry to say this but i am sure you have one wing either at a different angle of attack in relation to the other or one wing has some wash out / wash in built in to it. IE its twisted.
Time for a full rigging check...
Had this on some RPVs I used to fly and on a microlight i bought years ago one wing was twisted giving the same result.
Cheers
Kev
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jonathan(at)entry.co.za Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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When I rigged my XL, I lay on my back, behind the plane, and 'sighted' the wing
for straitness, we always do this models when building. You can sight the tail
and the wings, and then wings together, move you head until the trailing edges
of both wings line up, I am sure you will see a 'twist' The Twist is also
explained by the plane feeling normal at lower speeds, as the twist will be far
more effective at higher speeds.
Another possibilty is the washout in each aileron, is it the same, if I remember
(two years ago) it is 13mm at each tip.
HTH
Jonathan
150+ hrs and luvin it!
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
PM
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ter_turn(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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Victor, this control problem is potentially very serious. I wouldn't fly any more until consulting with ZAC. Maybe a trim tab, stationary or electric is the fix, but please discuss it with Zenith. Let us know the outcome, please!
Terry Turnquist
601-XL Plans
St. Peters MO
vvkidd(at)mindspring.com wrote:[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: vvkidd(at)mindspring.com
No aileron trim. Flaps are filmly in palce and do not droop. On the second flight I had a fellow builder on board, had to go to experience for help, he felt that he left wing wasn't developing as much lift as the right.
This is not due to CG. After the 1st lf turn on climg-out, I have to full right aileron to level the plane. Some rgt aileron is required on downwind. Increeased speed seems to add to the problem. On final at abt 60, the controls seem almost normal.
Victor
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pdn8r(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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Certainly don't know if this is the problem but on my RV-8 I had a heavy left wing on the initial flights and turned out to be the trailing edge of the ailerons being slightly different (not visible) radius. Actully fixed the problem by squeezing the opposite of heavy wing (in my case the right) aileron with seam pliers (very lightly) thus decreasing the radius and placing a block of wood along the trailing edge of the heavy wing aileron and tapping (again lightly) with a rubber mallet, thus increasing the radius and it actually fixed the problem to hands off. None of this "adjustment" made a visible difference but very slight differences can make a big difference in handling characteristics.
Just an idea.
Bill PaganEAA Tech Counselor #4395
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, vvkidd(at)mindspring.com <vvkidd(at)mindspring.com> wrote:
Quote: | From: vvkidd(at)mindspring.com <vvkidd(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Control Problem
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 8:03 AM
Quote: | --> Zenith601-List message posted by: vvkidd(at)mindspring.com
First flight was 10/6/08.
Zenith Zodiac CH601XL N922VK
Charleston, WV, CRW RW 23, Winds 230(at)3
Turned left X-wind and encountered a ¡heavy¢ left wing. Required full
Right aileron deflection to roll back to level on downwind. Continued to
require Right aileron to remain level.
Rudder and Elevator seem OK.
Encountered same ¡Heavy¢ problem on Left Base.
Rolled out on Final with a smooth approach at about 70.
Touch down was very smooth, a squeaker.
Have checked all specs: fore and aft measurements on wing, wing attachment,
rigging of ailerons, flaps etc. Haven't found the problem yet.
Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the right.
Don't know why yet.
Anyone else experienced this situation or have any ideas?
Victor
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[quote][b]
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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Hello Victor,
I am still building my XL, ready to start the wings, so I cant give first hand advise about it.
But for what you say, could be twist in either or both wings, while building them.
How to check the rigging in your plane? I dont know in the XL, at this moment, but maybe asking someone in ZAC.
Any instructions/solutions you get, we all will appreciate very much sharing.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
701 912S
Building 601XL Jab 3300.
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, vvkidd(at)mindspring.com <vvkidd(at)mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]From: vvkidd(at)mindspring.com <vvkidd(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Control Problem
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 9:21 AM
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: vvkidd(at)mindspring.com No aileron trim. Flaps are filmly in palce and do not droop. On the second flight I had a fellow builder on board, had to go to experience for help, he felt that he left wing wasn't developing as much lift as the right. This is not due to CG. After the 1st lf turn on climg-out, I have to full right aileron to level the plane. Some rgt aileron is required on downwind. Increeased speed seems to add to the problem. On final at abt 60, the controls seem almost normal. Victor --
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DaveG601XL
Joined: 27 Oct 2006 Posts: 351 Location: Cincinnati, Oh
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Control Problem |
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Victor,
I assume your rudder is in the neutral position with the pedals even? Did you try using rudder to lift the wing during your flights?
Good luck resolving this,
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_________________ David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area |
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1018
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: Control Problem |
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Make sure the rudder is properly centering in level flight. The Zodiac
has a powerful rudder and the plane will bank in the direction of the
rudder deflection. You can even bank the airplane with just the rudder
alone or use it to help level the wings.
Quote: |
Turned left X-wind and encountered a ‘heavy’ left wing. Required
full Right aileron deflection to roll back to level on downwind.
Continued to require Right aileron to remain level.
|
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_________________ --
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Control Problem |
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I agree on two points. First don't fly again till you find the problem and
fix it. Second, a likely problem is different washout between the two wings.
It's really easy to check with a four foot or longer level or other straight
edge placed on the wing tip area with the plane on a level surface and
measure to the floor at front and back. The measurements should be really
close (I'm not sure what the spec is right now)from wing to wing. Sounds
like the right wing has a greater angle of incidence so more lift. The
danger is if you bank left too hard you may be unable to recover without
doing something radical like full roll to the left, which is not a good idea
in the pattern.
Don't mean to scare you but I have been in this exact situation and I was
not happy!
Best of luck
Dirk
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