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jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

As you may know, the canopy of the AMD 601XLi I was flying came open; flew up to about 50 degrees and the airplane became uncontrollable. As soon as I had recovered enough to get around, the very first thing I did was to install a safety cable to the canopy of my airplane, Lil Bruiser. I have attached drawing of what I installed.  I made the cable just long enough, when pinned, that the canopy can be open a little for taxi on hot days. I am probably going to add a removable nylon strap that will be long enough to help pull the canopy down when seated.  Let me know if you have any questions.

 

 Jay in Dallas

   Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

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Thruster87

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 193
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Canopy Safety

Hi Jay,Have you ascertained as to why it  opened ? or possible reasons ?as stated in a previous thread it seems the locking studs height may have been made a bit short thus not giving a positive lock [there are two clicks as the canopy locks, if it is too short it will only engage the first click and it may not stay locked ]  Cheers T87

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Canopy Safety

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 01:22:39PM -0700, Thruster87 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Jay,Have you ascertained as to why it  opened ? or possible reasons ?as

 stated in a previous thread it seems the locking studs height may have

 been made a bit short thus not giving a positive lock [there are two

 clicks as the canopy locks, if it is too short it will only engage the

 first click and it may not stay locked ] Cheers T87


	


That discussion does not apply to the aircraft Jay was flying. It, like

mine, has the new-style latch system as found on the 650.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Canopy Safety

Yes, I have ascertained why it came open. But that is beside the point. 

 

 As Jay Maynard pointed out, the latching system on the airplane I was flying is not like the CH 601XL latch.  

 

 Regardless of the latching system, I don't want a canopy to come open in flight, EVER AGAIN, for whatever reason, period.  I don't doubt the integrity of either latching system; but neither one of them can absolutely overcome the carelessness or pilot error that too often occurs in aviation.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 (That is Jay Bannister)

 

   

 

   

 

 --

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: Canopy Safety

The accident airplane had the new canopy latching system currently  

used on the CH650. This does not have the two stage latches of the old  

system, it has two hooks connected to a torque tube that engage a stud  

on each side of the canopy. With the old system, each side of the  

canopy latched up independently of the other so that is was likely  

that at least one side of the canopy would always fully latch when  

closed and the unlatched side can be pulled closed with no danger of  

unlatching the other side. I've had one side of my canopy come open in  

flight but never both.



In my opinion, the new design needs some improvement. Because both  

latch hooks are connected rigidly to the torque tube, if one is not  

fully latched, neither will the other one be and,  if one side does  

latch and the other doesn't, attempting to latch the canopy in flight  

will probably cause both sides to unlatch. (This is probably what  

happened in this accident.) I think a slotted hole in the forward end  

of the linkage (65-C-2-4) connecting the hook (65-C-1-1) to the torque  

tube end, along with a spring connected to the bottom of the hook   

pulling the hook towards the latched position would allow the hooks  

enough free motion to latch up independently. This would also prevent  

one side from unlatching if someone attempts to pull the other side  

down to the latched position.

On Oct 17, 2008, at 4:22 PM, Thruster87 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Hi Jay,Have you ascertained as to why it  opened ? or possible  

 reasons ?as stated in a previous thread it seems the locking studs  

 height may have been made a bit short thus not giving a positive  

 lock [there are two clicks as the canopy locks, if it is too short  

 it will only engage the first click and it may not stay locked ]   

 Cheers T87


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Thruster87

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 193
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: Re: Canopy Safety

 	  Quote: 	
		  PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject: Canopy Safety

Yes, I have ascertained why it came open. But that is beside the point.



As Jay Maynard pointed out, the latching system on the airplane I was flying is not like the CH 601XL latch.



Regardless of the latching system, I don't want a canopy to come open in flight, EVER AGAIN, for whatever reason, period. I don't doubt the integrity of either latching system; but neither one of them can absolutely overcome the carelessness or pilot error that too often occurs in aviation.



Jay in Dallas

(That is Jay Bannister) 	
That was a rather harsh reply as it may or could prevent a similar situation for someone else.The idea behind these forums is to discuss things in a healthy way and NOT SHOOT the Messenger as I was not aware the new canopy was in service already. Cheers T87

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

T87, whoever you are,

 

 I am sorry you took my reply as "harsh", and as intending to shoot the messenger.  That was a long way from my intention. 

 

 My accident was a little over two months ago and I am still recovering from my injuries.  The CFII who was with me is still in the hospital and will probably be there hospital another six weeks. Even then, he will probably not be able to walk.  His medical bills will be well over a million dollars, and I'm doubtful that he will ever fly again. The airplane was destroyed.  All because the canopy came open.

 

 Is that sufficient reason for me to be emphatic? 

 

 I will say it again (for the benefit of ALL): I don't want a canopy to come open in flight, EVER AGAIN, for whatever reason, period.

 

 Jay Bannister

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 03:14:12AM -0700, Thruster87 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   That was a rather harsh reply as it may or could prevent a similar

 situation for someone else.The idea behind these forums is to discuss

 things in a healthy way and NOT SHOOT the Messenger as I was not aware the

 new canopy was in service already. Cheers T87


	


I posted about it back in June when I took delivery of my airplane. Even so,

I understand that not everyone may know about it.



I'll cut Jay B a lot of slack. He took some fairly serious injuries in his

crash, and I can certainly understand his desire to help others avoid the

same fate. When commenting on others' misfortune, it's a good idea to avoid

sounding like you're criticizing something that doesn't apply.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Thruster87

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 193
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Canopy Safety

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I posted about it back in June when I took delivery of my airplane. Even so,

I understand that not everyone may know about it.



I'll cut Jay B a lot of slack. He took some fairly serious injuries in his

crash, and I can certainly understand his desire to help others avoid the

same fate. When commenting on others' misfortune, it's a good idea to avoid

sounding like you're criticizing something that doesn't apply. 	
I was not aware of this accident so I only took it on what was said in the reply.Obviously one would try to avoid criticizing other's misfortunes.In aviation it has always been crucial to find reasons for accidents and I was just asking a simple question so it seemed at the time.Anyhow hope Jay gets back to 100% ASAP Cheers T87 [the T stands for a Thruster Aircraft and the 87 is the year it was made]

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Canopy Safety

Jay



I looked at your drawing and I'm a bit concerned. 



It seems while your cable will prevent the canopy from opening in flight, it will also prevent rescuers from getting to you on the ground if you are incapacitated and unable to pull the pin.



Perhaps the pin could be moved to one side or the other and a punch in cap installed to allow someone from outside the aircraft to pull the pin and get  you out if needed.



Glad to hear your getting better and my best wishes for your instructor as well



Larry Whitlow

 	  jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	
		  As you may know, the canopy of the AMD 601XLi I was flying came open; flew up to about 50 degrees and the airplane became uncontrollable. As soon as I had recovered enough to get around, the very first thing I did was to install a safety cable to the canopy of my airplane, Lil Bruiser. I have attached drawing of what I installed.  I made the cable just long enough, when pinned, that the canopy can be open a little for taxi on hot days. I am probably going to add a removable nylon strap that will be long enough to help pull the canopy down when seated.  Let me know if you have any questions.

 

 Jay in Dallas

   Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Canopy Safety

In Australia 

we are recommending in the SAAA and the RAA are making it mandatory for putting in an extra safety latch or cable to all our Zodiac XL's with the older thinner Aero Plastics 80 thou canopy's. It appears that the older 2 stage locking mechanism is easy to not lock properly. This results in it only locking to the first stage and popping up just after take off. 



It normally happens on the passenger side, as they don't like to slam the canopy , so lowering gently and not locking it fully.



 Don't work , with the older thinner canopy if you have an accident and people need to get into the cabin to rescue you, the older thinner canopy would be easily broken by a fist, shoe or even yelling at it.. (well you would have to yell hard). 



We can either have a cable system as Jan's one above or an extra lock on each side of the normal lock. If you upgrade to the newer canopy system you don't need to do this or get a Todd's Canopy as they are 120 thou. 

I will try and attach some photos. 

Chris. 

Sydney 

XL Jab3300

HARRY%20PICS%20027[1].JPG

Description:

sliding lock

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jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: Canopy Safety

Larry,

 

 I was concerned about that also.  But as someone pointed out earlier, if rescuers get to the wreck and you can't get out, they are going to break the canopy bubble to get you out. The airplane is probably crunched anyway, so breaking the canopy bubble is no big deal.  Even in my crash, the canopy was open, but the rescuers had to cut the instructor out of the fuselage with "Jaws of Life."  I used the safety pin with a large ring, so I could get it out and release the canopy if I was able.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 

   

 

   

 

 --

brianrobertwood(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

Here is an interesting video from Brazil on an improved latch for canopies  

that hinge in the front. The video admits that they just adapted an idea  

 from another model, but it looks well executed. Just ignore the chatter in  

Portuguese, the video is self explanatory.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSBkSyo__XY



Brian in Brazil



-- 

Usando o revolucionário cliente de e-mail do Opera:  

http://www.opera.com/mail/

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 08:31:02PM -0700, chris Sinfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   We can either have a cable system as Jan's one above or an extra lock on

 each side of the normal lock. If you upgrade to the newer canopy system

 you don't need to do this or get a Todd's Canopy as they are 120 thou.


	


What does the canopy thickness have to do with the canopy latch? Not all of

the 80-thousadnths canopies have the old-style latch. Mine does not.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

I'm getting really confused in the flurry of postings about the latch. Are we 

saying that the old latch design is the problem, or the new latch design?

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

Adding to what Jay M says, the canopy latch that failed for me was the newer style. So that alone doesn't "fix" the problem.

 

 Jay in Dallas 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

Jim,

 

 Neither latch is the problem.  The problem is the people who do the latching.  

 

 The old style has independent latches on each side.  They need to be pushed down until you hear two clicks.  If there is only one click, due to mis-alignment in the installation or just not pushing hard enough, the latch is likely to come un-done.   If the opposite latch has been properly latched, the canopy will not completely open. It can be re-latched independently from the opposite latch. If both latches are not properly latched, the canopy will probably open completely.

 

 The new style latches are connected and operate together.  The latches can be seen, so proper latching can be verified. However, if one side is not properly latched and comes un-done, it can not be re-latched withoug releasing the other latch.  I can attest to that from personal experience!    

 

 In either case, a partially open canopy (even if it has the safety tether) should be left alone, the airplane landed and then the canopy properly latched.  That is what the AMD POH says.  However, it also says that the canopy will not rise more than about a foot.  In my incident, the canopy rose to about 50 degrees and made the airplane uncontrollable in pitch.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 

   

 

   

 

 --

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

that is not chatter - it is usage of the most beautiful dialects of the most beautiful language in the world!



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Sun, 10/19/08, Brian Wood <brianrobertwood(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Brian Wood <brianrobertwood(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Canopy Safety

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 8:59 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Brian Wood"<brianrobertwood(at)gmail.com>Here is an interesting video from Brazil on an improved latch for canopies  that hinge in the front. The video admits that they just adapted an idea   from another model, but it looks

 well executed. Just ignore the chatter in  Portuguese, the video is self explanatory.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSBkSyo__XYBrian in Brazil-- Usando o revolucionário cliente de e-mail d    

===== 	
	


___ahoo.com  [quote][b]

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Canopy Safety

Oh, Jesus!!!



LOL



Terry Turnquist

601-XL Plans



David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] that is not chatter - it is usage of the most beautiful dialects of the most beautiful language in the world!



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Sun, 10/19/08, Brian Wood <brianrobertwood(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Brian Wood [quote][b]

K Dilks

Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Canopy Safety

My idea comes from one I saw on a Eurostar.

 Fix a cord  from the canopy bubble so you can pull it closed easily while sitting . second fit a pin on the end and mount bracket on the shelf behind to place pin in when closed . Leave 2-3 inches slack so if canopy is opened   you can  notice plus rescue folks can just cut it open . This way if doing a forced landing you can open the catch early , as per the doors on a plane to help getting out of a bent plane.

 

 Sorry to hear about this accident. Hope both make full recovery.

 Kev

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