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AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

Good Evening Nico,

  

 That is my feeling as well, but it just didn't seem to appeal to as many  folks as the developer had hoped. The big market was expected to be older  Turbine Commanders and King Airs. Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even  though the numbers worked out quite favorably.

  

 Happy  Skies



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

628 West 86th  Street

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8502 

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22   

  In a message dated 10/29/2008 2:37:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Well, Old Bob, there is    the safety of having much less moving parts in a turbine, too. And the moving    parts in a turbine just spin, they don't accellerate, stop, turn around,    accellerate, stop, turn around, accellerate thousands of times a minute    either. Seems to me they have my vote on that. However, going from an ageing    Lycoming or Continental to an Orenda would be a favorite for me. Provided they    can last and win some races and endurance rallies to increase their knowledge    and capabilities of the engines. 

    

   Nico

    

	






Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel.  [url= http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001 ]Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals![/url]

  [quote][b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

Good Afternoon wer,

  

 It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was  the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego  possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses still  prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off!

  

 Happy  Skies



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

628 West 86th  Street

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8502 

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22   

  In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  drwer2(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  While    there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to    Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and    affordable. 	






Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel.  [url= http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001 ]Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals![/url]

  [quote][b]

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even though the numbers 

 worked out quite favorably.


	


Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, 

but I have a little different perspective on this one.  I suspect that 

if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn 

few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated 

it as an option.  Since (to the best of my knowledge), no 

STC/certification was ever achieved for those airplanes ,no significant 

operating history exists, and no advertising was ever done in places 

where corp owners would have seen it, I don't think the product ever mad 

it out of the shadows.  I also don't think that the engine would have 

ever gained much momentum without some significant operational 

experience.  Corporate owners don't seem to be the type to pounce on a 

major unproven powerplant option to me.  Nico's point that a few Reno 

win's would help put them on the map is valid, but they'd need a good 

test fleet building hours to make it attractive to the target market.

I remember hearing that there were some significant problems with the 

Commander test vehicle, but don't remember the specifics.  Anyone else 

know more than I do?



cheers,

Chris

drwer2

Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
Location: Squaw Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

EPI, Inc. designed and developed the engine mounting and structural integrity testing had a lot to do with the demise of the project.  Here is a link to thier comments on the engine, etc.

  

 http://www.epi-eng.com/aircraft_engine_conversions/additional_weight_considerations.htm#examples

  

 willis Robison

 



--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>

Subject: Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:54 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>



BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Those folks wanted nothing to do with it even though the numbers 

 worked out quite favorably.


	


Wow, I would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, 

but I have a little different perspective on this one.  I suspect that 

if you took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn 

few of them have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated 

it as an option.  Since (to the best of my knowledge), no 

STC/certification was ever achieved for those airplanes ,no significant 

operating history exists, and no advertising was ever done in places 

where corp owners would have seen it, I don't think the product ever mad 

it out of the shadows.  I also don't think that the engine would have 

ever gained much momentum without some significant operational 

experience.  Corporate owners don't seem to be the type to pounce on a 

major unproven powerplant option to me.  Nico's point that a few Reno 

win's would help put them on the map is valid, but they'd need a good 

test fleet building hours to make it attractive to the target market.

I remember hearing that there were some significant problems with the 

Commander test vehicle, but don't remember the specifics.  Anyone else 

know more than I do?



cheers,

Chris





	
	


         [quote][b]

_________________
No Generality is worth a damn....including this one.

cogito ergo aero-geek

don.barry(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

That’s an excellent point. I spoke to one of my business friend’s who happens to be a Texas state senator. Apparently the folks at Trace have some connections with the state gov’t here. They (Texas) must have a “herd” of King Airs – there’s a study in progress looking at helping out on the STC approval and doing conversions on the state planes. They said the numbers he’s seen on this are “compelling”, and they like spending their $$$ within the state. How knows? Maybe this will end up going somewhere?   

   

Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more quiet than an air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that?  

   

Don  

Houston ,TX  

         

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com

 Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:48 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation  

  

     

Good Afternoon wer,  

    

   

    

It wasn't the paid pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was the aircraft owners. I agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego possessing cargo will choose based on economics, but most of the bosses still prefer turbines even when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off!  

    

   

    

Happy Skies

 

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 628 West 86th Street

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630 985-8502 

 Stearman N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22     

   

      

In a message dated 10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, drwer2(at)yahoo.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

While there may be a certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, Owners will always go with what is most efficient and affordable.   	
  

  

  



 

         

  

Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. [url=%20http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001%0d%0a]Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals![/url]  

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       [quote][b]

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

Well, the video of the test Commander certainly sounds as  if it is a quiet ship. Didn't one of the guys on the list fly the test model for  the TV spot? Bill Lieff? I cannot recall exactly. 

   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Barry  Home

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:10 PM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: AC-680 FLP  Engine RPM Fluctuation

That’s an excellent  point. I spoke to one of my business friend’s who happens to be a Texas state senator.  Apparently the folks at Trace have some connections with the state gov’t here.  They (Texas)  must have a “herd” of King Airs – there’s a study in progress looking at helping  out on the STC approval and doing conversions on the state planes. They said the  numbers he’s seen on this are “compelling”, and they like spending their $$$  within the state. How knows? Maybe this will end up going somewhere?   

Oddly enough, he also  said these engines are considerable more quiet than an air-cooled or a turbine.  Any truth to that? 

Don 

Houston  ,TX 

From:  owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:48  PM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AC-680 FLP  Engine RPM Fluctuation

Good Afternoon  wer,

It wasn't the paid  pilots that made the observations that I noted, it was the aircraft owners. I  agree that somebody hauling freight or other non ego possessing cargo will  choose based on economics, but most of the bosses still prefer turbines even  when the numbers favor the Chevy knock off!

Happy Skies

Old  Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

628 West 86th  Street

Downers Grove, IL  60516

630 985-8502  

Stearman N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22   

In a message dated  10/29/2008 3:15:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, drwer2(at)yahoo.com  writes:

  	  Quote: 	

While there may be a    certain amount of ego associated with transitioning to Turbines, Owners will    always go with what is most efficient and affordable. 	

Plan your  next getaway with AOL Travel. [url=%20http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001%0d%0a]Check  out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals![/url]

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peter.bichier(at)utoledo.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:09 PM, Don Barry Home wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Oddly enough, he also said these engines are considerable more quiet than an air-cooled or a turbine. Any truth to that?



	




if you go to MrRPM's old site:  

http://www.mrrpm.com/

and click "here" to see & hear the 1200 hp Commander Flight, the video still works!

granted the commentator and music and hoop la spoils it but you can still notice how quiet it is, they taxi and also have a clip of a pass over.

but if that commander is not flying anymore...





 [quote][b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

Good Evening Chris,

  

 Well, I do not find that I am disagreeing with you!<G>

  

 What I stated was that when I asked my King Air and Turbine Commander owner  friends what they thought of the Orenda conversion, the universal answer was  that there was no way they would trade their turbines for a hopped up Chevy  design even if it did perform better and had lower fuel burn. I did not find a  single owner who was interested in getting the conversion. I am not sure if it  would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the  Turbine owners I knew would not buy it!

  

 Admittedly, mine was a small and probably not significant sample, but I was  surprised at the resistance I found.

  

 Happy  Skies



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

628 West 86th  Street

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8502 

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22   

  In a message dated 10/29/2008 5:57:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  cschuerm(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Wow, I    would have never thought I'd disagree with Old Bob on anything, 

but I have    a little different perspective on this one.  I suspect that 

if you    took a poll of Turbine Commander and King Air owners that darn 

few of them    have ever heard of the Orenda project, let alone evaluated 

it as an    option. 	






Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel.  [url= http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001 ]Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals![/url]

  [quote][b]

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines.  They were replacements for the recip fleet.  The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander..  They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340.  jb

   	  Quote: 	
		  I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it! 	


 

 

 --

wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

Folks,  

I have had some involvement (automotive) that had a bearing on the problems of the Orenda, and some of the other efforts to “aerofy” automotive engines. Although of different engineering origin, the recent technical (not financial/management) problems of Thielert engines have been related to the auto origins of the engine.  

   

There are some interesting and virtually insoluble problems of physics with the traditional firing order of a 90 degree V-8, but if you go to a “flat plane” crank (as per competition V-8’s) you get vibration that is uncomfortable in an auto or an aircraft.  

   

It’s all a while ago, but a fading memory tells me that it is No.5 big end that has a life measured in seconds, with any interruption of lubrication, in the traditional crank/firing order, if we could do an Orenda with a flat plane crank (as I believe might have been tried) and produce a solution to the vibration, so that you didn’t destroy the prop. or the surrounding aeroplane, you would have a goer.   

   

Again trusting to memory, there was a problem with moving cylinder sleeves in the Orenda, the cost of re-design to eliminate this problem was probably at least one nail in the coffin. Remember, “rules” for Ag. Engines are not quite the same as for a “standard” cat. C.of A aeroplane.  

   

Cheers,  

Bill Hamilton  

AC-500A ZK-DCF  

     

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:00 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation  

  

   

That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines.  They were replacements for the recip fleet.  The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander..  They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340.  jb  

I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it!  



 

 

 --

drwer2

Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
Location: Squaw Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

Well there have been some sucesses,  Honda and Porsche both produced motors that worked well, and were more efficient than current aero motors. they were MUCH more complicated owing to DOHV, variable valve and ignition timing as well as the require d reduction unit.  here is an overhead of the Porsche PFM (porsche flugmoter) http://www.mooneyland.com/mooneyposter.jpg

  

 The honda was similar and they both had Specific Fuel consumptions below 0.4 pph/hp.  I think honda gave up on the piston division to commit to thier new Honda-Jet.

  

 The real reason you dont have Honda or Porsche emblazoned on the side of your nacell is that Neither  could make a business model based on 1000 engines a year. Even if you charged $40k each....just no money in it for companies with stockholders,  especially the technically competent ones like H or P.  

  

 Would you fly in a Dodge or Ford (or chevy) powered Commander?.....it would take a SEA-change in personality and capability.

  

 Oh, and my last 2p on design via racing engines.....You cant design a clean slate engine for competition.  You start with a Basic design engine and make incremental modifications to achieve the design goal.  Thats why Porsche was chosen...they already had an air-cooled, multivalve, semi-PADEC (partial-authority) engine and only needed a PRU for the propeller.

  

 As memory serves, Nissan even produced 2000 hp race engines for the Pond team, and were somewhat successful.  They had cooling problems tho and burned up thier only prototypes at Reno. 

  

  

 wer  



--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Bill Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au> wrote:



 [quote]From: Bill Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>

Subject: RE: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 5:46 AM



       

Folks,

 

I have had some involvement (automotive) that had a bearing on the problems of the Orenda, and some of the other efforts to “aerofy” automotive engines. Although of different engineering origin, the recent technical (not financial/management) problems of Thielert engines have been related to the auto origins of the engine.

 

 

 

There are some interesting and virtually insoluble problems of physics with the traditional firing order of a 90 degree V-8, but if you go to a “flat plane” crank (as per competition V-8’s) you get vibration that is uncomfortable in an auto or an aircraft.

 

 

 

It’s all a while ago, but a fading memory tells me that it is No.5 big end that has a life measured in seconds, with any interruption of lubrication, in the traditional crank/firing order, if we could do an Orenda with a flat plane crank (as I believe might have been tried) and produce a solution to the vibration, so that you didn’t destroy the prop. or the surrounding aeroplane, you would have a goer. 

 

 

 

Again trusting to memory, there was a problem with moving cylinder sleeves in the Orenda, the cost of re-design to eliminate this problem was probably at least one nail in the coffin. Remember, “rules” for Ag. Engines are not quite the same as for a “standard” cat. C.of A aeroplane.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Bill Hamilton

 

AC-500A ZK-DCF

 

 

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com

Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:00 PM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation



 

 

 

That may be true, but the ORENDA project, as conceived by Dick Macoon, was not intended to compete with turbines.  They were replacements for the recip fleet.  The test airplane was a 685, piston Commander, not a turbo Commander..  They were also certified on the single otter, replacing the geared 1340.  jb

 

I am not sure if it would have met it's claims, but even if it did, my impression was that the Turbine owners I knew would not buy it!

 



--

_________________
No Generality is worth a damn....including this one.

cogito ergo aero-geek

dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

DON... where in Houston are you??? Are you flying  Commanders now?

  

  

  

  

 David Owens

Aerial  Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

   [quote][b]

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: AC-680 FLP Engine RPM Fluctuation

Gents-



Trace wasn't racing their engine- they merely had one on display and were

providing sales support for it.



Even with a pair of V8s, the 685 wouldn't give much of a chase in the

unlimited heat!



Robert S. Randazzo

N414C



--

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