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Mod 3 Rebuild

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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

Kitfoxers C Finally learned how to attach pictures. Here's my rebuild project after painting fuselage.

  

 Pat reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: Re: Mod 3 Rebuild

I like the colors, same colors I am going to use !   Why did you have to rebuild the plane ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

On Mon, November 17, 2008 8:20 pm, patrick reilly wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Kitfoxers, Finally learned how to attach pictures. Here's my rebuild project after

 painting fuselage.


	


Very nice design. I like it!



Looks like it was about to snow in that outside photo, at least you're getting some

streaking that makes it look pretty cold out.



Did you make any mistakes? I'd sure like to hear some points on avoiding problems.

Looks like a lot of masking had to be done. You probably have developed some

techniques. Especially masking in a curved pattern on a plane.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Pat reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL


	




-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

When doing curved patterns, I used 1/8" wide plastic tape from an  

auto paint supply. They also have it in a thinner, less "curveable"  

tape, which won't work as good, but it is better for making straight  

lines. Don't pull and therefore stretch the plastic tape, as it will  

lift off the surface, especially in a curve. After you've laid the  

1/8" tape in the pattern you desire, go back and lay a wider tape  

over it, letting the narrower tape be the guide tape for your  

pattern, and the wider tape do the job of masking, and holding down  

the paper which you also get at the paint store...don't use  

newspaper, as it has fine holes which will bleed paint through.  

Wherever you tape over a fabric finishing tape, or any other "edge",  

be sure to use a fingernail to press down on the tape, otherwise  

paint will find its way under the tape, and you'll have little tiny  

streaks of paint that you (and others) will see every time you get  

close enough to "sniff" the paint job. : )

I did one wing without paying attention to pressing down the tape  

real well, and I see the results every time I get up close and  

personal with the plane.

If you are not doing very tight curves, you could get away with 3/16"  

or maybe 1/4" tapes, but remember that the sharper the curve, the  

narrower the tape has to be.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 591hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system



On Nov 18, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Mon, November 17, 2008 8:20 pm, patrick reilly wrote:

>

> Kitfoxers, Finally learned how to attach pictures. Here's my  

> rebuild project after

> painting fuselage.



 Very nice design. I like it!



 Looks like it was about to snow in that outside photo, at least  

 you're getting some

 streaking that makes it look pretty cold out.



 Did you make any mistakes? I'd sure like to hear some points on  

 avoiding problems.

 Looks like a lot of masking had to be done. You probably have  

 developed some

 techniques. Especially masking in a curved pattern on a plane.

>

> Pat reilly

> Mod 3 582 Rebuild

> Rockford, IL

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz, P.E.

 PAF Consulting Engineers

 Office 425.440.9505

 Cell 425.241.1618

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

Paul C Did I make any mistakes! If you paint an airplane or car C you make mistakes. You just hope they are not that noticeable. Masking isn't that hard. It is time consuming but the more you do it the faster it gets. The design I used isn't very complicated. I have painted a couple of cars but it is so infrequent that I am learning again from the beginning and by the time the project is done C I have finally relearned how to paint again. The major mistake I made was not having the right lighting. I used 5(at) 500 watt halogen lights and 2(at) 300 watt incandesant. It would have been much better to have flourescents. If you are going to paint a plane or car C you have to have enough of the right kind of light positioned correctly to always be looking into the glare of the light on the paint. I was finally doing it by the end of the job but because the lighting wasn't optimum I had to do everything but stand on my head to "look into the light". As far as masking C lay a line of narrow enough tape C most of my lines were done with 1/2" masking tape C to allow curveing the line C then site down the line from the end to make sure it curves evenly. Determine reference points to take measurements from C transfer the pattern to the other side. Lay your tape to those lines. Site down the tape and adjust to have even smooth curves like you did on the 1st side.

 I painted yellow over a coat of white. Yellow needs white under it or you need many many many coats to cover C red requires the same white under coat. I then taped the pattern for the black and masked the yellow off and shot a coat of yellow along the tape lines. This coat of the base color (yellow) along the tape line is needed to seal the tape so no black seeps under the tape. This results in crisp lines.

 I used Poly Fibre system and recommend you get "Poly Fibre How to Cover an Aircraft Using the Poly-Fiber System" book by Jin Goldenbaum. The EAA "How to Paint Your Own Airplane" by Ron Alexander is also a reference book I read an reread. What ever you do follow the directions to the letter for what ever paint system you use. If you think you can short cut or substitue some other product than the one specified C Good Luck! It might cost a little more $ than a less expensive substitute product. But time is also a cost and correcting an error due to non compatabile products is extremely costly C both $ and time. 

 Oh C yes it was starting to snow when the picture was taken.

 Pat Reilly

 Mod # 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL    

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Tue C 18 Nov 2008 09:44:29 -0800

 Subject: Re: Mod 3 Rebuild

 From: paul(at)eucleides.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul A. Franz C P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Mon C November 17 C 2008 8:20 pm C patrick reilly wrote:

 >

 > Kitfoxers C Finally learned how to attach pictures. Here's my rebuild project after

 > painting fuselage.

 Very nice design. I like it!

 Looks like it was about to snow in that outside photo C at least you're getting some

 streaking that makes it look pretty cold out.

 Did you make any mistakes? I'd sure like to hear some points on avoiding problems.

 Looks like a lot of masking had to be done. You probably have developed some

 techniques. Especially masking in a curved pattern on a plane.

 >

 > Pat reilly

 > Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 > Rockford C IL

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz C P.E.

 PAF Consulting Engineers

 Office 425.440.9505

 ========================> 

  [quote][b]

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

Mike C My plane was originally built in 1996 in OK C flew by original builder for 3 years C sold and continued to fly for 3 or so years then was on a trailer which was hit while on the road C tearing out the landing gear. The engine and panel were stripped and sold. The plane was then sold to a fellow in KC area. He stripped the fuselage C replaced one bent tube under seat ready to recpver. He had some physical problems that kept him from finishing the project. I saw it on Barnstormers C bought it C and started looking for a 912 engine C that is what it was originally set up with. I saw a 100 hour 582 FWF in CA that I couldn't pass up. A 912 would have cost 4 times as much and I didn't think a 90mph cruise plane justified the extra cost.

 do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Mod 3 Rebuild

 From: orcabonita(at)hotmail.com

 Date: Tue C 18 Nov 2008 02:24:14 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>

 

 I like the colors C same colors I am going to use ! Why did you have to rebuild the plane ?

 

 Mike

 

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

 

 Kolb MK-III Xtra C 912-S

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214928#214928

 

 

==============
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

Lynn C Most of my curves were gentle enough to use 1/2" paper tape. I had some 3M special plastic tape(expersive). I couldn't get it to stick very well and went back to regular paper masking tape. I could pull and strech  the tape to conform to any curve I was making. I did have to go to 1/4" paper tape on the smaller curve on the vert stab. and cowling. Also C shooting the tape line with the base color before shooting the trim color will seal the tape. Any bleed under the tape will be in base color C not visable C and avoid the trim color run under the tape C resulting in crisp lines.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Mod 3 Rebuild

 Date: Tue C 18 Nov 2008 13:38:11 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 When doing curved patterns C I used 1/8" wide plastic tape from an 

 auto paint supply. They also have it in a thinner C less "curveable" 

 tape C which won't work as good C but it is better for making straight 

 lines. Don't pull and therefore stretch the plastic tape C as it will 

 lift off the surface C especially in a curve. After you've laid the 

 1/8" tape in the pattern you desire C go back and lay a wider tape 

 over it C letting the narrower tape be the guide tape for your 

 pattern C and the wider tape do the job of masking C and holding down 

 the paper which you also get at the paint store...don't use 

 newspaper C as it has fine holes which will bleed paint through. 

 Wherever you tape over a fabric finishing tape C or any other "edge" C 

 be sure to use a fingernail to press down on the tape C otherwise 

 paint will find its way under the tape C and you'll have little tiny 

 streaks of paint that you (and others) will see every time you get 

 close enough to "sniff" the paint job. : )

 I did one wing without paying attention to pressing down the tape 

 real well C and I see the results every time I get up close and 

 personal with the plane.

 If you are not doing very tight curves C you could get away with 3/16" 

 or maybe 1/4" tapes C but remember that the sharper the curve C the 

 narrower the tape has to be.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C 591hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system

 

 

 

 On Nov 18 C 2008 C at 12:44 PM C Paul A. Franz C P.E. wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul A. Franz C P.E." 

 > <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 >

 >

 > On Mon C November 17 C 2008 8:20 pm C patrick reilly wrote:

 >>

 >> Kitfoxers C Finally learned how to attach pictures. Here's my 

 >> rebuild project after

 >> painting fuselage.

 >

 > Very nice design. I like it!

 >

 > Looks like it was about to snow in that outside photo C at least 

 > you're getting some

 > streaking that makes it look pretty cold out.

 >

 > Did you make any mistakes? I'd sure like to hear some points on 

 > avoiding problems.

 > Looks like a lot of masking had to be done. You probably have 

 > developed some

 > techniques. Especially masking in a curved pattern on a plane.

 >

 >

 >>

 >> Pat reilly

 >> Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 >> Rockford C IL

 >

 >

 > -- 

 > Paul A. Franz C P.E.

 > PAF Consulting Engineers

 > Office 425.440.9505

 > Cell 425.241.1618

 >

 &gt==================

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

On Tue, November 18, 2008 10:38 am, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 When doing curved patterns, I used 1/8" wide plastic tape from an

 auto paint supply. They also have it in a thinner, less "curveable"

 tape, which won't work as good, but it is better for making straight

 lines.


	


I don't understand. Why is "thinner" less curveable?



 	  Quote: 	
		   Don't pull and therefore stretch the plastic tape, as it will

 lift off the surface, especially in a curve.


	


If you put a section down that isn't quite in the right position, can you adjust it or

do you have to replace the piece that you want to move?



 	  Quote: 	
		   After you've laid the

 1/8" tape in the pattern you desire, go back and lay a wider tape

 over it, letting the narrower tape be the guide tape for your

 pattern, and the wider tape do the job of masking, and holding down

 the paper which you also get at the paint store...don't use

 newspaper, as it has fine holes which will bleed paint through.


	


I've been using the kind that is folded plastic about 4 inches wide on the roll that

is preattached on one side to the tape. Stick it down, then unfold the plastic to 16"

wide if needed. My problem has been if it don't stick it down perfectly and have to

move it, I get a resulting ragged edge when I peel the masking off.



I haven't been able to get perfect lines at the edges of the masking. I don't know

when to take the masking off either. Should it be done while the new paint is still a

bit soft?



I was told that you have to spray a coat of clear over all the edges to get them real

smooth. I was also told to try to feather the clear. I have tried that and where it is

thin it gets a sort of dry dull look. Maybe I don't understand what "feathering" means

exactly.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Wherever you tape over a fabric finishing tape, or any other "edge",

 be sure to use a fingernail to press down on the tape, otherwise

 paint will find its way under the tape, and you'll have little tiny

 streaks of paint that you (and others) will see every time you get

 close enough to "sniff" the paint job. : )


	


Thanks for that tip. I haven't crossed a finishing tape yet with masking. Still

practicing on bare metal.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I did one wing without paying attention to pressing down the tape

 real well, and I see the results every time I get up close and

 personal with the plane.

 If you are not doing very tight curves, you could get away with 3/16"

 or maybe 1/4" tapes, but remember that the sharper the curve, the

 narrower the tape has to be.


	


How did you lay out long straight lines? Some kind of chalk line? Did you mark the

surface at all as a guide?



When I've asked about how to make the lines really nice looking, I've been frequently

told that if I'm going to be so picky about them, then I need to use vinyl tape. I

don't know if that works over polyfiber though. It also occurred to me that a lot of

really nice pin striping is done on cars and has been done for a long time before

vinyl cutting was available. Also, if the vinyl panels are pretty big then weight

might be a consideration. Maybe I need to hire an experienced car painter to help me

some. I'm learning this on my own without the benefit of an experienced painter so

far.

-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

On Tue, November 18, 2008 10:58 am, patrick reilly wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Paul, Did I make any mistakes! If you paint an airplane or car, you make mistakes. You

 just hope they are not that noticeable. Masking isn't that hard. It is time consuming

 but the more you do it the faster it gets. The design I used isn't very complicated.


	


It sure is impressive looking to me!



 	  Quote: 	
		   I

 have painted a couple of cars but it is so infrequent that I am learning again from

 the beginning and by the time the project is done, I have finally relearned how to

 paint again. The major mistake I made was not having the right lighting. I used 5(at) 500

 watt halogen lights and 2(at) 300 watt incandesant. It would have been much better to

 have flourescents.


	


All that heat from those lights might have helped though. Is the idea that using

fluorescent lighting is going to mean you don't have to reposition the lights as much?



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you are going to paint a plane or car, you have to have enough

 of the right kind of light positioned correctly to always be looking into the glare of

 the light on the paint. I was finally doing it by the end of the job but because the

 lighting wasn't optimum I had to do everything but stand on my head to "look into the

 light".


	


OK, you're making me a believer on that. In my test painting, it's been on a real job

but just not as critical. I have been repairing corrosion damage and blistered paint

on a truck frame and doing a lot of masking of wires, bolt heads, decals and rubber

parts. I have spent many hours with rubber gloves, using various wire brushes and some

powered and naval jelly to remove the rust. Some parts didn't need to be repainted

since there was no damage by blistering under the Imron paint from corrosion. My

mistakes were often due to poor lighting and the other problem was not being able to

position the paint gun the best distance because stuff was in the way. If I

accidentally got a run, I just wiped it all off immediately in the area and shot it

again. Some places I put on too light of a coat simply because the lighting was not

bright enough. I think your trick of sighting into the glare is something I didn't

know and will adopt as standard practice.



 	  Quote: 	
		   As far as masking, lay a line of narrow enough tape, most of my lines were

 done with 1/2" masking tape, to allow curveing the line, then site down the line from

 the end to make sure it curves evenly. Determine reference points to take measurements

 from, transfer the pattern to the other side.


	


what do you make your transfer marks with? Or do you just start the masking as

measured points without a mark?



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lay your tape to those lines. Site down

 the tape and adjust to have even smooth curves like you did on the 1st side.

 I painted yellow over a coat of white. Yellow needs white under it or you need many

 many many coats to cover, red requires the same white under coat. I then taped the

 pattern for the black and masked the yellow off and shot a coat of yellow along the

 tape lines. This coat of the base color (yellow) along the tape line is needed to seal

 the tape so no black seeps under the tape. This results in crisp lines.


	


Oh, I see, that's clever. Do you pull the masking when the paint is still wet? How to

you keep from getting tiny little fracture lines in the paint when you pull the

masking off?



 	  Quote: 	
		   I used Poly Fibre system and recommend you get "Poly Fibre How to Cover an Aircraft

 Using the Poly-Fiber System" book by Jin Goldenbaum.


	


I've got that one.



 	  Quote: 	
		   The EAA "How to Paint Your Own

 Airplane" by Ron Alexander is also a reference book I read an reread.


	


OK, thanks for that tip. I'll get that one too.



 	  Quote: 	
		   What ever you do

 follow the directions to the letter for what ever paint system you use. If you think

 you can short cut or substitue some other product than the one specified, Good Luck!

 It might cost a little more $ than a less expensive substitute product.


	


Sometimes, I've found that some of the more expensive products are horribly marked up

though. I will pay a little more locally to give them the business for the service I

get though.



 	  Quote: 	
		   But time is

 also a cost and correcting an error due to non compatabile products is extremely

 costly, both $ and time.


	


I'm a believer in that. I'm using only the polyfiber products on my airplane.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Oh, yes it was starting to snow when the picture was taken.


	


Sure is more fun working on the airplane than doing the yard work and house repairs.



Thanks for the coaching.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 3 Rebuild

For doing the straight lines and most masking, I used the blue scotch painters tape, medium hold and used a plastic spreader to make sure the tape was stuck down good along the line to be painted.  I taped the actual masking paper to that tape.  For curved lines I used 1/4" blue line tape from the auto store.  It is spendy but nothing I have used will lay down the way that stuff does.  On the fuse and cowling, as soon as I was done spraying, I went to the side I shot first and started pulling the tapes and masking.  All lines were crisp and clean.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

I did the same as you Lynn - the tape I used was 3/16" and is called "Fine line Tape" available from most Autopro shops. 

 

Ended up with really sharp detail and no seepage 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

19/11/2008 05:15 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Mod 3 Rebuild 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 When doing curved patterns, I used 1/8" wide plastic tape from an  

 auto paint supply. They also have it in a thinner, less "curveable"  

 tape, which won't work as good, but it is better for making straight  

 lines. Don't pull and therefore stretch the plastic tape, as it will  

 lift off the surface, especially in a curve. After you've laid the  

 1/8" tape in the pattern you desire, go back and lay a wider tape  

 over it, letting the narrower tape be the guide tape for your  

 pattern, and the wider tape do the job of masking, and holding down  

 the paper which you also get at the paint store...don't use  

 newspaper, as it has fine holes which will bleed paint through.  

 Wherever you tape over a fabric finishing tape, or any other "edge",  

 be sure to use a fingernail to press down on the tape, otherwise  

 paint will find its way under the tape, and you'll have little tiny  

 streaks of paint that you (and others) will see every time you get  

 close enough to "sniff" the paint job. : )

 I did one wing without paying attention to pressing down the tape  

 real well, and I see the results every time I get up close and  

 personal with the plane.

 If you are not doing very tight curves, you could get away with 3/16"  

 or maybe 1/4" tapes, but remember that the sharper the curve, the  

 narrower the tape has to be.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, 591hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

 system

 

 

 

 On Nov 18, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul A. Franz, P.E."  

 > <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 >

 >

 > On Mon, November 17, 2008 8:20 pm, patrick reilly wrote:

 >>

 >> Kitfoxers, Finally learned how to attach pictures. Here's my  

 >> rebuild project after

 >> painting fuselage.

 >

 > Very nice design. I like it!

 >

 > Looks like it was about to snow in that outside photo, at least  

 > you're getting some

 > streaking that makes it look pretty cold out.

 >

 > Did you make any mistakes? I'd sure like to hear some points on  

 > avoiding problems.

 > Looks like a lot of masking had to be done. You probably have  

 > developed some

 > techniques. Especially masking in a curved pattern on a plane.

 >

 >

 >>

 >> Pat reilly

 >> Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 >> Rockford, IL

 >

 >

 > -- 

 > Paul A. Franz, P.E.

 > PAF Consulting Engineers

 > Office 425.440.9505

 > Cell 425.241.1618

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 -

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

The "thinner" tape I refer to is a light green in color, and is less  

curveable because of the makeup of the material....and also I think  

it is wider than the vinyl/plastic. This is why it is better to use  

it for straight lines...it doesn't give when tugged straight,  

therefore it maintains a straight line, unlike the plastic/vinyl tape  

which stretches, then when pressed down, will shrink back to its  

original length. And if you've used it for a curved line, the curve  

naturally gets shorter, and the only way it can do this is to lift  

off the surface. I used the blue or red vinyl (sorry for calling it  

plastic earlier...I don't have any here at home now or I'd give you  

the mfr. name...probably 3M though) on curved lines, and the light  

green translucent stuff for straight lines.

I usually lay down a line, make sure that it's in the right position,  

then press it down. I have,however, had to move a line on occasion,  

and it can be lifted and moved at least once.

I tried the "attached masking" type of stuff you refer to, and didn't  

like it much. I didn't like being able to see through it, and also,  

the paint didn't stick very well to it, and when pulling off that  

material, the stuff flexes enough that the paint that ended up on it  

would flake off and land on the freshly-painted surface....not good.

I haven't tried the clear coat over the edge of the masking tape, nor  

have I tried the base color over the edge of the masking tape.

If you haven't crossed over a finishing tape yet, you soon will, and  

believe me, you're gonna do it a lot. Oh, one thing to be aware  

of...if you can do your design such that you don't run along a  

finishing tape...pinked tape....edge for very long. You'll see that  

the line that you wish to paint will cause you to wear out your  

fingernails pressing the tape down over each and every one of those  

little pointy edges...unless of course, you do the clear or base  

color spraying first. (I wish I had heard of that method when I  

sprayed my plane.)

I laid out my long lines by marking on the white base coat, which by  

the way is almost a must, at least as far as I can tell. I was told  

that to spray the orange color that I used over the Polyspray would  

take a lot of paint to cover and look good. Much better to spray the  

whole thing white, and then you have a uniform color to spray darker  

coats over. Of course, this was told to me by a paint salesman, so  

take that advice with a grain of salt. : ) If you're going to paint  

it a darker (than the Polyspray) color, I think I'd skip the all- 

white base coat...somebody else might have an idea on the wiseness of  

this move.

I would never use a vinyl panel on an airplane due to the weight, and  

besides, it looks like crap in my not-so-humble opinion...too hard to  

make compound curves, I would think. I feel the same way about using  

vinyl tape for pin-striping. To me, it shows a bit of less-than- 

quality workmanship. I'd rather have my painted-on accent lines come  

out a little less than perfect, than have taped accent lines any  

day...and so will the judges. Not that I've ever won anything with my  

plane...it gets used too much to win prizes. : )  (At least that's my  

excuse.)

By all means, go to a body shop and ask questions...those guys are a  

wealth of knowledge. I've got a body shop just 275 paces up the road  

from me, and they enjoy my coming up and asking questions and  

especially dropping off a six-pack as a reward.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 591hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system

On Nov 18, 2008, at 2:35 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Tue, November 18, 2008 10:38 am, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> 

>

> When doing curved patterns, I used 1/8" wide plastic tape from an

> auto paint supply. They also have it in a thinner, less "curveable"

> tape, which won't work as good, but it is better for making straight

> lines.

 I don't understand. Why is "thinner" less curveable?

> Don't pull and therefore stretch the plastic tape, as it will

> lift off the surface, especially in a curve.

 If you put a section down that isn't quite in the right position,  

 can you adjust it or

 do you have to replace the piece that you want to move?

> After you've laid the

> 1/8" tape in the pattern you desire, go back and lay a wider tape

> over it, letting the narrower tape be the guide tape for your

> pattern, and the wider tape do the job of masking, and holding down

> the paper which you also get at the paint store...don't use

> newspaper, as it has fine holes which will bleed paint through.

 I've been using the kind that is folded plastic about 4 inches wide  

 on the roll that

 is preattached on one side to the tape. Stick it down, then unfold  

 the plastic to 16"

 wide if needed. My problem has been if it don't stick it down  

 perfectly and have to

 move it, I get a resulting ragged edge when I peel the masking off.

 I haven't been able to get perfect lines at the edges of the  

 masking. I don't know

 when to take the masking off either. Should it be done while the  

 new paint is still a

 bit soft?

 I was told that you have to spray a coat of clear over all the  

 edges to get them real

 smooth. I was also told to try to feather the clear. I have tried  

 that and where it is

 thin it gets a sort of dry dull look. Maybe I don't understand what  

 "feathering" means

 exactly.

> Wherever you tape over a fabric finishing tape, or any other "edge",

> be sure to use a fingernail to press down on the tape, otherwise

> paint will find its way under the tape, and you'll have little tiny

> streaks of paint that you (and others) will see every time you get

> close enough to "sniff" the paint job. : )

 Thanks for that tip. I haven't crossed a finishing tape yet with  

 masking. Still

 practicing on bare metal.

> I did one wing without paying attention to pressing down the tape

> real well, and I see the results every time I get up close and

> personal with the plane.

> If you are not doing very tight curves, you could get away with 3/16"

> or maybe 1/4" tapes, but remember that the sharper the curve, the

> narrower the tape has to be.

 How did you lay out long straight lines? Some kind of chalk line?  

 Did you mark the

 surface at all as a guide?

 When I've asked about how to make the lines really nice looking,  

 I've been frequently

 told that if I'm going to be so picky about them, then I need to  

 use vinyl tape. I

 don't know if that works over polyfiber though. It also occurred to  

 me that a lot of

 really nice pin striping is done on cars and has been done for a  

 long time before

 vinyl cutting was available. Also, if the vinyl panels are pretty  

 big then weight

 might be a consideration. Maybe I need to hire an experienced car  

 painter to help me

 some. I'm learning this on my own without the benefit of an  

 experienced painter so

 far.

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz, P.E.

 PAF Consulting Engineers

 Office 425.440.9505

 Cell 425.241.1618

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

Paul C The halogens were hot. Too hot. It was summer and I didn't need extra heat. Halogen lights tend to spot light the light. Flouresents give a flood light light that is better. less heat and much less power to operate. Set them up properly and use enough of them so you don't have to reposition the lights.

 Yes C you have to look into the glare on the paint to see how wet it is C how much paint you have or don't have on the surface.

 I just used a lead pencil to mark every couple of feet where I wanted my lines. Don't use a marker. It is easier to see but will bleed through the paint.

 I pulled the tape before completely dry. That Poly Fibre book tells you when to pull tape.

 Build yourself a fresh air system with a shop vac that you can reverse the air flow. I bought a new one for $35 at Farm and Fleet as a clean dedicated air supply unit. Get a Tyvek hood for $35 and coveralls from Cole Parmer on the internet. And run the air in with a garden hose. It was hot and the shop vac heats the air also C so I bought a wash tub C coiled up 20' of swimming pool vac hose in the tub C dumped 20# of ice in the tub and had cool dry air to the hood. Do it even if you are using a non-carcinogenic paint. Mine worked great. You can buy a fresh air system from Hobby Air C but I think they are about $400+.

 Good Luck

 Pat Reilly

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Tue C 18 Nov 2008 12:03:01 -0800

 Subject: RE: Mod 3 Rebuild

 From: paul(at)eucleides.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul A. Franz C P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Tue C November 18 C 2008 10:58 am C patrick reilly wrote:

 >

 > Paul C Did I make any mistakes! If you paint an airplane or car C you make mistakes. You

 > just hope they are not that noticeable. Masking isn't that hard. It is time consuming

 > but the more you do it the faster it gets. The design I used isn't very complicated.

 It sure is impressive looking to me!

 > I

 > have painted a couple of cars but it is so infrequent that I am learning again from

 > the beginning and by the time the project is done C I have finally relearned how to

 > paint again. The major mistake I made was not having the right lighting. I used 5(at) 500

 > watt halogen lights and 2(at) 300 watt incandesant. It would have been much better to

 > have flourescents.

 All that heat from those lights might have helped though. Is the idea that using

 fluorescent lighting is going to mean you don't have to reposition the lights as much?

 > If you are going to paint a plane or car C you have to have enough

 > of the right kind of light positioned correctly to always be looking into the glare of

 > the light on the paint. I was finally doing it by the end of the job but because the

 > lighting wasn't optimum I had to do everything but stand on my head to "look into the

 > light".

 OK C you're making me a believer on that. In my test painting C it's been on a real job

 but just not as critical. I have been repairing corrosion damage and blistered paint

 on a truck frame and doing a lot of masking of wires C bolt heads C decals and rubber

 parts. I have spent many hours with rubber gloves C using various wire brushes and some

 powered and naval jelly to remove the rust. Some parts didn't need to be repainted

 since there was no damage by blistering under the Imron paint from corrosion. My

 mistakes were often due to poor lighting and the other problem was not being able to

 position the paint gun the best distance because stuff was in the way. If I

 accidentally got a run C I just wiped it all off immediately in the area and shot it

 again. Some places I put on too light of a coat simply because the lighting was not

 bright enough. I think your trick of sighting into the glare is something I didn't

 know and will adopt as standard practice.

 > As far as masking C lay a line of narrow enough tape C most of my lines were

 > done with 1/2" masking tape C to allow curveing the line C then site down the line from

 > the end to make sure it curves evenly. Determine reference points to take measurements

 > from C transfer the pattern to the other side.

 what do you make your transfer marks with? Or do you just start the masking as

 measured points without a mark?

 > Lay your tape to those lines. Site down

 > the tape and adjust to have even smooth curves like you did on the 1st side.

 > I painted yellow over a coat of white. Yellow needs white under it or you need many

 > many many coats to cover C red requires the same white under coat. I then taped the

 > pattern for the black and masked the yellow off and shot a coat of yellow along the

 > tape lines. This coat of the base color (yellow) along the tape line is needed to seal

 > the tape so no black seeps under the tape. This results in crisp lines.

 Oh C I see C that's clever. Do you pull the masking when the paint is still wet? How to

 you keep from getting tiny little fracture lines in the paint when you pull the

 masking off?

 > I used Poly Fibre system and recommend you get "Poly Fibre How to Cover an Aircraft

 > Using the Poly-Fiber System" book by Jin Goldenbaum.

 I've got that one.

 > The EAA "How to Paint Your Own

 > Airplane" by Ron Alexander is also a reference book I read an reread.

 OK C thanks for that tip. I'll get that one too.

 > What ever you do

 > follow the directions to the letter for what ever paint system you use. If you think

 > you can short cut or substitue some other product than the one specified C Good Luck!

 > It might cost a little more $ than a less expensive substitute product.

 Sometimes C I've found that some of the more expensive products are horribly marked up

 though. I will pay a little more locally to give them the business for the service I

 get though.

 > But time is

 > also a cost and correcting an error due to non compatabile products is extremely

 > costly C both $ and time.

 I'm a believer in that. I'm using only the polyfiber products on my airplane.

 > Oh C yes it was starting to snow when the picture was taken.

 Sure is more fun working on the airplane than doing the yard work and house repairs.

 Thanks for the coaching.

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz C P.E.

 PAF Consulting Engineers

 Office 425.440.9505

&gt=====================

 	  Quote: 	
		   _=======

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

Looking back at some pics I shot, I might not have used  

1/8"....probably 1/4" or even 3/8"  judging from the comparison with  

my finishing tapes over the false ribs. Man, that was 3 1/2 years  

ago! How quickly we forget.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 591hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system



On Nov 18, 2008, at 5:47 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I did the same as you Lynn - the tape I used was 3/16" and is  

 called "Fine line Tape" available from most Autopro shops.



 Ended up with really sharp detail and no seepage



 Gary



 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200

 > --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

It seems like I read that the regular masking tape...crepe tape...is  

too "wrinkeley" to use for fine edging, although the type of paint  

used might have something to do with that...thin, runny paint would  

tend to seep under a not-well-pressed-down tape edge.



All this talk of doing a perfect paint job reminds me of an old  

photography professor (talking about making very crisp, sharply  

focussed prints) who said "are you going to stand back and admire the  

picture, or get your nose two inches away and sniff the damn thing?"



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 591hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system



On Nov 18, 2008, at 2:29 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Most of my curves were gentle enough to use 1/2" paper tape.  

 I had some 3M special plastic tape(expersive). I couldn't get it to  

 stick very well and went back to regular paper masking tape. I  

 could pull and strech  the tape to conform to any curve I was  

 making. I did have to go to 1/4" paper tape on the smaller curve on  

 the vert stab. and cowling. Also, shooting the tape line with the  

 base color before shooting the trim color will seal the tape. Any  

 bleed under the tape will be in base color, not visable, and avoid  

 the trim color run under the tape, resulting in crisp lines.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Mod 3 Rebuild

At 03:09 PM 11/18/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Paul, The halogens were hot. Too hot. It was summer and I didn't 

need extra heat. Halogen lights tend to spot light the light. 

Flouresents give a flood light light that is better. less heat and 

much less power to operate. Set them up properly and use enough of 

them so you don't have to reposition the lights.


	


I suggest hanging 4' flourescents vertically. It works wonders. Don't 

paint them, though. 



 	  Quote: 	
		    I just used a lead pencil to mark every couple of feet where I 

 wanted my lines. Don't use a marker. It is easier to see but will 

 bleed through the paint.


	


I just had great success doing some straight lines with a 

construction laser. It works even over curved surfaces if you orient 

the laser correctly. I've also had success getting straight lines on 

small curved parts using the sun's shadow off a straight-edge to 

locate the line.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

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