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Jean Pillaudin

Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 26
Location: France

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Hi all,



I am at the very beginning of my experience of flying a Kolb Ultrastar. I only have spend two hour of running the runway (grass) in little cross wind, and i have two take off and hopefully two landing too 

 

I am reading Jack Firefly  WebSite , very interesting:

http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/howtofly.html



And Jack says:

"I always take off with the stick centered and full back."

 

I did not that. I gradually put full throtle and put the stick forward (surely glider pilot habit), rapidly the tail go up and I control it moving the stick a little back (still up), maintain the axe with the foot and ailerons. The plane accelerate and take off, accelerate again in the air -I kepp the runway axe- and gently pull back to climb at the good speed.

 

It is not concrete runway, it is gentle grass.



How do you do, with your Kolb? Am I wrong somewhere?



Jean

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Hi Jean:

  

 I don't think you are wrong.

  

 I take off in all models of Kolbs, normally like  this:

  

 1-Full Throttle

  

 2-Neutral Stick - No pressure on the stick to keep  the tail down or force the tail up.  It will come up by itself when  ready.

  

 3-When the tail starts coming up, input  control pressure to keep it level.

  

 4-When it is ready to fly, a little aft stick  pressure and you are flying.

  

 All this takes place in a matter of a few seconds  time.  

  

 This would be an ordinary takeoff on good  surfaces.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		      

How do you do, with your Kolb? Am I wrong    somewhere?



Jean

 

	
   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Jean, the FF has a top mounted engine so full power will push the nose down.Since the US has center thrust the stick position required will not be the same.

I agree with John H., neutral stick will do the job until you become more familiar.

BB

On 11, Dec 2008, at 9:14 AM, Jean PILLAUDIN wrote:

[quote]Hi all,



I am at the very beginning of my experience of flying a Kolb Ultrastar. I only have spend two hour of running the runway (grass) in little cross wind, and i have two take off and hopefully two landing too 

 

I am reading Jack Firefly  WebSite , very interesting:

http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/howtofly.html



And Jack says:

"I always take off with the stick centered and full back."

 

I did not that. I gradually put full throtle and put the stick forward (surely glider pilot habit), rapidly the tail go up and I control it moving the stick a little back (still up), maintain the axe with the foot and ailerons. The plane accelerate and take off, accelerate again in the air -I kepp the runway axe- and gently pull back to climb at the good speed.

 

It is not concrete runway, it is gentle grass.



How do you do, with your Kolb? Am I wrong somewhere?



Jean

  	  Quote: 	
		  

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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

	
[b]

Jean Pillaudin

Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 26
Location: France

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Ho yes sure I understand, the design is really not the same, Jack take care about the nose over!



Thank's Robert and John for your incomes! 

Jean



2008/12/11 robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>

 [quote] Jean, the FF has a top mounted engine so full power will push the nose down.Since the US has center thrust the stick position required will not be the same.

I agree with John H., neutral stick will do the job until you become more familiar.

 BB

On 11, Dec 2008, at 9:14 AM, Jean PILLAUDIN wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi all,



I am at the very beginning of my experience of flying a Kolb Ultrastar. I only have spend two hour of running the runway (grass) in little cross wind, and i have two take off and hopefully two landing too 

  

I am reading Jack Firefly  WebSite , very interesting:

http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/howtofly.html



And Jack says:

 

"I always take off with the stick centered and full back."

 

I did not that. I gradually put full throtle and put the stick forward (surely glider pilot habit), rapidly the tail go up and I control it moving the stick a little back (still up), maintain the axe with the foot and ailerons. The plane accelerate and take off, accelerate again in the air -I kepp the runway axe- and gently pull back to climb at the good speed.

  

It is not concrete runway, it is gentle grass.

How do you do, with your Kolb? Am I wrong somewhere?



Jean



  	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

	
	


  	  Quote: 	
		  



	




[b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

I do pretty much as John says, but I use a touch of forward stick to lift the tail as the US doesn't have that high engine helping to pitch forward.  On grass I hold the nose a bit higher so it lifts off by itself when it's ready.



 -Dana



 At 09:35 AM 12/11/2008, John Hauck wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 I take off in all models of Kolbs, normally like this:

  

 1-Full Throttle

  

 2-Neutral Stick - No pressure on the stick to keep the tail down or force the tail up.  It will come up by itself when ready.

  

 3-When the tail starts coming up, input control pressure to keep it level.

  

 4-When it is ready to fly, a little aft stick pressure and you are flying.

  

 All this takes place in a matter of a few seconds time.  

  

 This would be an ordinary takeoff on good surfaces. 	


 --

  If it were truly the thought that counted, more women would be pregnant.    [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

"I always take off with the *stick centered and  full back*."



Hi Jean,

  

 I have not flown a Firefly but to take off `stick  fully back `  is dangerous in any plane

  

 I dont know who Jack is but I am surprised that he  is alive.

 If you take off as he suggests you will get  airborne as soon as you hit flying speed. THAT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH.  A  slight drop in the wind or power from your engine and you will stall., just off  the ground and you will at best bump heavily or at worst you will crash.   You will also  be stuck in ground effect until you build up some  speed.

 It CAN  be done that way but only when you  have some experience.

  

 I never look at the ASI on takeoff. You do not fly  small aircraft by the numbers with a co pilot calling V1, V2. Advance the  throttle smoothly with the stick forward, the tail will come up in a few yards  and you can ease off on the stick to balance the plane on its wheels. Smoothly  push the throttle to full power. The plane will tell you when she wants to fly.  Hold it like that for a couple of seconds as the speed builds and then ease the  stick back and you will climb away with no trouble.

 You have gliding experience you will know   that you do not pull into a steep climb until you have some height. Cables break  and engines pack up.

  

 Good luck

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

Jean Pillaudin

Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 26
Location: France

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Yes you're right, but I think Jack just want to take care of nose over, and as an experienced Pilot he let his firefly accelerate before beginning to climb.



Thank you for your income.



Jean



 2008/12/13 pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>

[quote]        "I always take off with the *stick centered and  full back*."



Hi Jean,

  

 I have not flown a Firefly but to take off `stick  fully back `  is dangerous in any plane

  

 I dont know who Jack is but I am surprised that he  is alive.

 If you take off as he suggests you will get  airborne as soon as you hit flying speed. THAT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH.  A  slight drop in the wind or power from your engine and you will stall., just off  the ground and you will at best bump heavily or at worst you will crash.   You will also  be stuck in ground effect until you build up some  speed.

 It CAN  be done that way but only when you  have some experience.

  

 I never look at the ASI on takeoff. You do not fly  small aircraft by the numbers with a co pilot calling V1, V2. Advance the  throttle smoothly with the stick forward, the tail will come up in a few yards  and you can ease off on the stick to balance the plane on its wheels. Smoothly  push the throttle to full power. The plane will tell you when she wants to fly.  Hold it like that for a couple of seconds as the speed builds and then ease the  stick back and you will climb away with no trouble.

 You have gliding experience you will know   that you do not pull into a steep climb until you have some height. Cables break  and engines pack up.

  

 Good luck

  

 Pat

 



    	  Quote: 	
		  



	




[b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Every plane/kolb is a little different.  I never really thought about how the 	
	
take off process works in my mongrelized MkIII but here is what I can put together from memory:

1. taxi to the end where the wind is hitting me in the face

2 wait until the water temp gets near a boiling

3. check all two gages

4. see if  those flappy things are working on the wings.

5. advance the throttle fully, the mighty geo wheezes to full power

6. lumber at a slightly increasing rate over the undulating terrain

7. start bouncing from hummock to hummock at increasingly large increments.

8 doesn't much matter where the stick is, can't remember anyway.

9. some kinda magic makes it leave the ground. -thank goodness, I was was getting tired of all that bounding.

10. free as a bird.  Hope it keeps running.

I won't even go to the landing process, much too frightening for me to review.

BB never had a lesson in a Kolb either, and it shows.



 [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

..................... 

I dont know who Jack is but I am surprised that he is alive.

If you take off as he suggests you will get airborne as soon as you hit flying speed. THAT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH.  A slight drop in the wind or power from your engine and you will stall., just off the ground and you will at best bump heavily or at worst you will crash.  You will also  be stuck in ground effect until you build up some speed.

It CAN  be done that way but only when you have some experience.

......................

Pat,



I am the "Jack" and I referred Jean to my how to transition to a FireFly page.



http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/howtofly.html



I have copied out My Standard Take-Off



"I always take off with the stick centered and full back. This approach has 

several advantages. In cross winds it keeps the FireFly stuck to the runway 

until lift-off and it makes it easier to keep the FireFly straight down the 

runway. It lets you get off soft tall grass fields with out a nose over, and 

it can get you off the ground as quickly as possible. A nose over experience 

on a soft tall grass runway and water in tall grass experience brought about 

always using the stick back against the stop.



The throttle is teased forward until the FireFly is bouncing. Throttle 

teasing reduces the effect of P-factor and helps you to keep up with rudder. 

Each time the FireFly bounces the throttle is jigged open a little more 

lengthening the next bounce until the FireFly flies off into ground effect. 

During the bouncing phase and if the tail comes up on its own when taking 

off from grass, you are on your way to a nose over. Jig the throttle back to 

get the tail to come back down or abort and try again. If there is a cross 

wind, one lowers the up wind wing and adds rudder to keep the FireFly 

straight with the runway. As the FireFly rises up in ground effect, back 

stick pressure is released and the throttle is advanced more aggressively. 

When the indicated airspeed reaches 55 mph and the FireFly continues to 

accelerate, the stick is slowly pulled back to maintain 55 mphi. If at any 

time during the climb out the engine rpm droops or you think it is drooping, 

push the stick forward to maintain or increase indicated air speed."

........................



At the time I wrote the avove, the FireFly was powered by a Rotax 447, and 

riding on the original 4 inch Azusa wheels.  By chocking the wheels, I found 

that the tail wheel would leave the ground at 4,000 rpm with the stick in 

the full back position.  At 4,300 rpm the FireFly was over balanced on the 

main gear and would have fallen on its nose if I had not looped a safety 

rope over the tail wheel spring.  I added a gap seal between the horizontal 

stabilizer and elevator, but found no improvement. 



After mounting the Victor 1+ and VG's on the bottom of the horizontal 

stabilizer and lowering the thrust line there is less of a nose over problem 

upon throttle opening.  I have not repeated the wheel chocked test.  I have 

added it to my things to do list.



My first concern to be able to safely nurse the FireFly off wet, soft, tall 

grass strips with out a nose over.  And so I continuously practice.  Now 

that I have infinite choice of flaperon settings, I usually set the 

flaperons at five degrees down.  The reason to tease the throttle is to 

ensure that the FireFly can only lift in to ground effect.  At this point, 

stick pressure is released and the ground effect flight is stabilized and 

then the throttle is advanced and climb out initiated.  With this procedure, 

if things are not going well, all one has to do is back off the throttle and 

ease the FireFly down few feet. 



The field that am flying out of has only one runway, and it is very rare 

that the wind matches the runway direction.  If the wind is not gusting over 

20 mph, I like to fly.  This makes for interesting cross wind takeoff and 

landing with hangars and tall trees within less that 100 yards of the runway.



The advantage of using ground effect is that it moderates the cross wind 

effect.  If one wing gets low, ground effect pressure helps to push it back 

up.  Upon advance of the throttle, the FireFly accelerates rapidly in ground 

effect to a speed that gives very good control surface response.  From this 

point one can initiate climb out with out having to worry about PF, heading, 

or stall.



I find that I do better with above approach, in that it reduces the pilot 

load and minimizes multi tasking.  It allows one to leave the ground at very 

low speed with virtually no pf effect.  Next, slow speed flight is 

stabilized relative to the runway which is similar a glider at the beginning 

of an aircraft tow.  This is followed by power addition to bring the ias up 

to best rate of climb speed.  Then climb out is initiated up through the 

unstable air with very effective controls. 



It works for me. 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  "I always take off with the *stick centered and  full back*."



Hi Jean,

  

 I have not flown a Firefly but to take off `stick  fully back `  is dangerous in any plane

  

 I dont know who Jack is but I am surprised that he  is alive.

 If you take off as he suggests you will get  airborne as soon as you hit flying speed. THAT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH.  A  slight drop in the wind or power from your engine and you will stall., just off  the ground and you will at best bump heavily or at worst you will crash.   You will also  be stuck in ground effect until you build up some  speed.

 It CAN  be done that way but only when you  have some experience.

	




Er, I don't understand how this is dangerous - this is just standard soft-field takeoff technique, at least according to my training.



I did this literally all the time in my FSII when I felt like doing a soft-field takeoff (unfortunately I never flew it off grass, but soft-fields were fun anyway):



- Stick full back

- slowly advance throttle

- keep tailwheel glued to the ground

- lift off in ground effect

- release back pressure as needed to remain in ground effect

- when safe flying speed is acheived go fly.



Works in all the other planes I've flown as well including my titan....



A standard takeoff in my FSII tho was the way John described, with neutral stick instead letting the tail come up...



PS: I'm thinking now about building a firefly, so I may be back in the Kolb saddle again after a while.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

In a message dated 12/13/2008 5:28:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		     I have not flown a Firefly but to take off `stick    fully back `  is dangerous in any plane

    

   Hi Pat,

    

   We're talking about a Kolb here, specifically a    Firefly.  I fly a Kolb FireStar, which is pretty much the same model, but    with slightly more wing area.  I always take off with the stick    fully back, because otherwise you risk pushing the nose over onto the    ground.  I add throttle slowly at first, but as soon as it is    moving, I go to full power.  It accelerates very quickly and I'm off the    ground in a matter of seconds.  Then I relieve the back pressure    just enough to maintain a normal climb.  I don't know about other Kolb    models, but the Firefly and FireStar accelerate so quickly that ground    effect is almost meaningless, they practically jump off the ground and    climb like a bat out of &%#$(at).

    

   Merry Christmas Everyone,

    

   Bill    Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar 500 hrs +

Audubon NJ

Do Not    Archive

	




Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.

  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

We're talking about a Kolb here, specifically  a  Firefly. >>

  

 Hi Bill,

  

 I wouldn`t like to try it on any plane but if it  works and keeps on working safely I guess thats good enough.

 I fly the Extra and have her up to full throttle  more or less as soon as the tail rises. Never had a problem with the high thrust  line except when I dropped a wheel in a rut while taxying and stood her on her  nose and wiped the pitot off.

  

 The Challenger was the same. Obviously not on the  ground because of the nosewheel but if you went to full power on a go-round it  was something to watch for. No great trouble, just be aware.

  

 Still don`t like the idea of being nose high at  marginal flying speed though.

  

 How does JH do it?  Comments  John?

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Masqqqqqqq(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Remember, an UltraStar is unique among Kolbs because  of the high tailboom, low engine arrangement.  The tailwheel has to be  about 3- 4 feet off the ground to level the wings for flight  configuration.

     To takeoff, open the throttle with  all controls centered.  Adjust for P factor and crosswind as needed to keep  the machine going straight as speed builds.  When you feel the tail get  responsive, a slight forward push on the stick will raise the tail to flight  position.  Center stick again to build speed for takeoff.  When you  achieve that speed, slight back on the stick and you are airborne.   

     Taking off with the tail still on  the ground can be done, but you're 'mushing' along, flirting with a stall.   

    Landing the UltraStar is sort of opposite  takeoff......... meaning, fly the main wheels onto the ground, and as your speed  reduces, let the tail settle down.  I tried 3 point landings, but putting  the tail that low while flying slow results in a stall and a rough and bouncing  landing.    Only after putting Vortex Generators on the wings,  could I do a 3 point landing.

  

  

  

  In a message dated 12/13/2008 4:28:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     "I always take off with the *stick centered and    full back*."



Hi Jean,

    

   I have not flown a Firefly but to take off `stick    fully back `  is dangerous in any plane

    

   I dont know who Jack is but I am surprised that    he is alive.

   If you take off as he suggests you will get    airborne as soon as you hit flying speed. THAT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH.  A    slight drop in the wind or power from your engine and you will stall., just    off the ground and you will at best bump heavily or at worst you will    crash.  You will also  be stuck in ground effect until you build up    some speed.

   It CAN  be done that way but only when you    have some experience.

    

   I never look at the ASI on takeoff. You do not    fly small aircraft by the numbers with a co pilot calling V1, V2. Advance the    throttle smoothly with the stick forward, the tail will come up in a few yards    and you can ease off on the stick to balance the plane on its wheels. Smoothly    push the throttle to full power. The plane will tell you when she wants to    fly. Hold it like that for a couple of seconds as the speed builds and then    ease the stick back and you will climb away with no trouble.

   You have gliding experience you will know     that you do not pull into a steep climb until you have some height. Cables    break and engines pack up.

    

   Good luck

    

   Pat

   



 	  Quote: 	
		  



://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

	
	




Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in ony&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Patrick:

  

 I fly the airplane.

  

 My MKIII, landing gear configuration and location  being different from standard Kolb configuration, doesn't suffer from the  dreaded nose over.  It also has a little aft cg, so it sort of flies off by  itself.

  

 When I fly other Kolbs, I usually fly them the same  way.  I tell the airplane what I want it to do and do it.

  

 I have no standard procedure for takeoffs.   Conditions are constantly changing.  This dictates changes in how I  fly.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  	  Quote: 	
		      How does JH do    it?  Comments John?

    

   Cheers

    

   Pat

 	  Quote:

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Arksey(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Hi gang,

     Here is my 2 cents worth.....I fly a  firestar ll 503, but I was taught to fly in J-3 cub and my instructors had me  hold the stick full back when going to full power, the plane would start rolling  forward,  then going forward with the stick until the tail came up, then  holding the stick so that the tail was up in a wheel landing attitude until  flying speed, than back on the stick and climb at speed correct for climb out to  altitude.   I do the same in the firestar and it works just fine for  me...I sure like the firestar and it sure has good traits on takeoff and  landing...well just my 2 cents worth....a bit of snow on ground up here in  michigan and sort of cold...so have not been flying....Jim Swan

  

 do not  archive

jim swan FS ll 503

michigan



Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite scom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.

  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

this is just standard soft-field takeoff technique,>>



Hi Lucien,

I would quite agree, but that is a technique to deal with a particular 

situation. If it is imperative that you get off the ground as quickly as 

possible then you are willing to trade something else, in this case safety.



I once had to put the Challenger down in a small, very rough field when the 

teeth came off the drive belt when I was on the approach.Next morning I 

changed the belt, pushed the plane back as far as I could into the hedge, 

and went for it. I bounced into the air off the first of a series of 

hummocks and arrived with a crunch that rattled my fillings on the next one. 

I just grazed the third hummock with a heavy jolt and was airborne. I 

wouldn`t describe it as flying. I managed to struggle high enough to get 

over a 4 foot hedge and settled down again into ground effect as I crossed 

the next field building speed to pull up to about 50ft to cross a road.. By 

then I was flying properly and I chopped the throttle and landed on my own 

strip,  quite surprised to find the wings still attached and the undercart 

in one piece.



The short take off technique worked but I was very familiar with the 

Challenger, knew what to expect, and dealt with the situation accordingly 

BUT it was not a technique I would teach a guy with very little experience 

as a standard take off procedure. That was the situation with the guy who 

sent the post which started this thread.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

I fly the airplane.>>

  

 Thanks John.

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

It works for me. >>



Hi Jack,



Fair enough but is that a technique you would recommend to an inexperienced 

learner? Would you be happy to be told that was the way to do it with only a 

few take offs under your belt. Messing about in ground effect just above the 

stall is not something most instructors would suggest.



You obviously have had experience of soft field, long grass flying and have 

evolved a technique to deal with it which works.

If  I ever have to deal with water hidden in long grass on the runway I will 

remember the way you do it and be profoundly grateful.

Alternatively I might leave the plane in the hangar.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

2 wait until the water temp gets near a  boiling>>

  

 Hi Robert,

  

 Love that bit.

  

 LOL

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  this is just standard soft-field takeoff technique,>>



Hi Lucien,

I would quite agree, but that is a technique to deal with a particular 

situation. If it is imperative that you get off the ground as quickly as 

possible then you are willing to trade something else, in this case safety.

	




Sorry, but I'm just not understanding how proper soft-field takeoff technique is a compromise in safety. 

I was never trained that way and it has never been my experience that correct technique involved a safety hazard. 

If done correctly, there's nothing unsafe about a soft-field takeoff - you take the same precautions there as you do with any takeoff. 

So I'm confused.....



 	  Quote: 	
		  

I once had to put the Challenger down in a small, very rough field when the 

teeth came off the drive belt when I was on the approach.Next morning I 

changed the belt, pushed the plane back as far as I could into the hedge, 

and went for it. I bounced into the air off the first of a series of 

hummocks and arrived with a crunch that rattled my fillings on the next one. 

I just grazed the third hummock with a heavy jolt and was airborne. I 

wouldn`t describe it as flying. I managed to struggle high enough to get 

over a 4 foot hedge and settled down again into ground effect as I crossed 

the next field building speed to pull up to about 50ft to cross a road.. By 

then I was flying properly and I chopped the throttle and landed on my own 

strip,  quite surprised to find the wings still attached and the undercart 

in one piece.



The short take off technique worked but I was very familiar with the 

Challenger, knew what to expect, and dealt with the situation accordingly 

BUT it was not a technique I would teach a guy with very little experience 

as a standard take off procedure. That was the situation with the guy who 

sent the post which started this thread.



Cheers



Pat 	




Er, yeah I wouldn't teach a takeoff like that either! No offense, but instead I'd teach how to dismantle and trailer the plane out of that field rather than try to actually fly out of it.



An integral part of takeoff training is learning when not to attempt it. If you're bending metal or close to it like this, you made a mistake long before you put the coals to it.



No safe SF takeoff involves whacking the airframe on not one but multiple dirtbars on the takeoff run........



I don't consider this a typical soft-field takeoff situation and certainly nothing a student should ever be exposed to......



LS

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LS
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