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rickpegser(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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when we have to talk about system failures, the people to ask it those failure are those that maintain them. When i hear the statements," i have 2000 hours of time." it reminds me that if he had 4000 more he might be ready to test for his a+p. and with 6000 more he might be ready to try for an i/a.
while most aircraft owners will psy 90$ an hour to their car mechanic, they for some resome want to pay 40$ per hour for their airplane.
most on this list have spent in excess of 1000 hr's building their aircraft. YET they have no experience maintaining those aircraft.
i love working on aircraft that can be maintained from the local napa shop. but the pros will keep you alive.listen to them. when they tell you stop .DO IT.
RICK
--- On Sun, 12/14/08, linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: | From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 9:19 PM
<pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
<kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is
one little component to let out some electrical smoke in the
cockpit while you are on the gauges and you will be faced
with no electrics without risk of additional fire.
Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing
you lose is that little box.
> Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just
don't lead others blindly down the same risky path.
I've seen too many electrical failures in 30+ years of
flying and wrenching on planes to totally rely on electrics.
You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the
feeling you don't know squat about
"electrics".
> A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right now to
replace most of their circuit breakers that on rare occasion
leak smoke. So there goes your "will not fail"
argument.
Nobody said 'nothing will fail' ..... what they did
say is that they have an 'alternate' to go to if a
failure occurs. It's unfortunate, but the one component
in the airplane that seems to fail more often than any other
...... is the pilot. I think there's more to the Beech
AD than meets the eye ..... not knowing for sure, but I have
the feeling there's a design problem in the breaker, and
that Beech fed all the radios from one breaker. Older
airplanes did that. If it was only a rare occasion, I
don't think there would be an AD otherwise.
Linn
pilot & airplane builder
do not archive
> KM
> A&P/IA
> Paul Besing wrote:
>> In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying
20,000 hour freight airplanes with things breaking all the
time, I've never once had a total electrical
failure..and trust me..the garbage I was flying, if any rats
nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work, a properly
crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
>> *
>> *=======
>> *
>
>
>
>
>
>
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jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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Some of these dumb ass pros have done more damage to aircraft than any
builder would do to his own aircraft.
Have to love the A&P/IA that comes in here thinking they are gods gift
to aircraft and all that is.
do not archive
RICHARD MILLER wrote:
| Quote: |
when we have to talk about system failures, the people to ask it those failure are those that maintain them. When i hear the statements," i have 2000 hours of time." it reminds me that if he had 4000 more he might be ready to test for his a+p. and with 6000 more he might be ready to try for an i/a.
while most aircraft owners will psy 90$ an hour to their car mechanic, they for some resome want to pay 40$ per hour for their airplane.
most on this list have spent in excess of 1000 hr's building their aircraft. YET they have no experience maintaining those aircraft.
i love working on aircraft that can be maintained from the local napa shop. but the pros will keep you alive.listen to them. when they tell you stop .DO IT.
RICK
--- On Sun, 12/14/08, linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
>From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 9:19 PM
>
><pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
>
>Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
>Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>
><kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
>
>>It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is
>>
>>
>one little component to let out some electrical smoke in the
>cockpit while you are on the gauges and you will be faced
>with no electrics without risk of additional fire.
>Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing
>you lose is that little box.
>
>
>>Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just
>>
>>
>don't lead others blindly down the same risky path.
>I've seen too many electrical failures in 30+ years of
>flying and wrenching on planes to totally rely on electrics.
>You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the
>feeling you don't know squat about
>"electrics".
>
>
>>A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right now to
>>
>>
>replace most of their circuit breakers that on rare occasion
>leak smoke. So there goes your "will not fail"
>argument.
>Nobody said 'nothing will fail' ..... what they did
>say is that they have an 'alternate' to go to if a
>failure occurs. It's unfortunate, but the one component
>in the airplane that seems to fail more often than any other
>...... is the pilot. I think there's more to the Beech
>AD than meets the eye ..... not knowing for sure, but I have
>the feeling there's a design problem in the breaker, and
>that Beech fed all the radios from one breaker. Older
>airplanes did that. If it was only a rare occasion, I
>don't think there would be an AD otherwise.
>Linn
>pilot & airplane builder
>do not archive
>
>
>>KM
>>A&P/IA
>>Paul Besing wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying
>>>
>>>
>20,000 hour freight airplanes with things breaking all the
>time, I've never once had a total electrical
>failure..and trust me..the garbage I was flying, if any rats
>nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work, a properly
>crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
>
>
>>>*
>>>*=======
>>>*
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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|
All of which shows you have no appreciation of what happens when you get
electric smoke in the cockpit. You don't just loose one item, unless you
have a death wish. You kill the master. Period. An MD-11 failed to do
that, the crew couldn't get it on to an airfield quickly enough, and the
aircraft was lost with all persons on board into the Atlantic. You can
gamble with isolating the problem, at your own peril.
You don't have to justify your desired system to anyone but yourself. A
little common sense will tell you to have at least two completely
independent electric systems if you choose to operate IFR. No one is
going to make you do it. Even with dual electrics, you don't solve the
electrical fire scenario. Yes they are relatively rare. Is your life
worth that gamble? Just food for thought.
linn Walters wrote:
| Quote: |
Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
> It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little
> component to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you
> are on the gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without
> risk of additional fire.
Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing you lose is
that little box.
> Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just don't lead others
> blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many electrical
> failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to totally
> rely on electrics.
You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the feeling you don't
know squat about "electrics".
|
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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|
I guess I'd have to put software glitches into the infant failure modes
since almost all software bugs are found early on. Fortunately (as told
by Mike Stewart) he had the presence of mind to act swiftly and properly
... a less capable pilot may not have the same outcome.
The software glitch syndrome isn't confined to the low cost EFIS systems
... Just ask Garmin how, with all the testing in certification, their
products have been marketed with 'unannounced features'. Or better yet,
ask Microsoft why the whole world seems to be part of their beta testing
program.
Linn
do not archive
Bruce Gray wrote:
| Quote: |
While the electrical system might have some issues, the real issue with low
cost EFIS systems are software bugs. Redunancy can save your life.
As told by,
--> <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis screen
in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. Disorientation
set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You cant imagine the
immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not agreeing in a big way.
Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA wins, and thats what I flew to
the runway. It resulted in an emergency firmware update the following day by
GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not like a GPS approach with no assigned runway
in the database. Was a software bug. Would have been easier if the screen
had just gone blank, but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked up
and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in many
unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules attitudes
every time.
Mike
-
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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|
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
All of which shows you have no appreciation of what happens when you
get electric smoke in the cockpit.
You could be right ... I've never had smoke in the cockpit.
|
| Quote: | You don't just loose one item, unless you have a death wish. You kill
the master. Period.
I disagree .... properly designed, an electrical system will contain the
|
'smoke' problem inside the 'black box. If you have smoke emanating
outside the boxes, then there's a design problem. The failure modes for
the wiring is usually unintentional grounding of a hot wire due to
chafing of the insulation or improper protection (ckt breaker) for the
wiring. Remember that ckt breakers protect the wiring, not the device
connected to it, and that proper sizing of the breaker is paramount.
| Quote: | An MD-11 failed to do that, the crew couldn't get it on to an
airfield quickly enough, and the aircraft was lost with all persons on
board into the Atlantic.
Not familiar with it.
|
| Quote: | You can gamble with isolating the problem, at your own peril.
You don't have to justify your desired system to anyone but yourself.
A little common sense will tell you to have at least two completely
independent electric systems if you choose to operate IFR. No one is
going to make you do it. Even with dual electrics, you don't solve the
electrical fire scenario. Yes they are relatively rare. Is your life
worth that gamble? Just food for thought.
Thanks, I like food!!!
|
Linn
do not archive
| Quote: |
linn Walters wrote:
>
>
> Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
>> It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little
>> component to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you
>> are on the gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without
>> risk of additional fire.
> Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing you lose is
> that little box.
>> Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just don't lead others
>> blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many electrical
>> failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to totally
>> rely on electrics.
> You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the feeling you
> don't know squat about "electrics".
|
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chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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I got to chime in here. I'm a retired air traffic controller. I've
experienced lots of emergencies in the tower cab throughout my career.
Worked a C97 with two engine fires to a successful landing, had a Western
Boeing720 trainer roll inverted, crash and explode near the base of the
tower, a Hughes Airwest and military F4 midair just north of the airfield,
and a Starduster Too auger in between the parallels at Oakland, CA right in
front of me. I even saved a drowning victim at the lake one weekend when no
one else would go in after the poor sob. I felt I was one pretty cool dude
and could handle just about any emergency.
Then one day as my wife and I were heading for Laughlin, NV, I looked down
and there it was, a wisp of smoke from under the panel! I was smack dab in
the middle of a coastal mountain range with little or no options but to slam
off the master, declare an emergency and head back to the airport ten
minutes away. Smoke and smell went away. Turned out to be an inverter (or
converter, can't keep 'em straight) that blew. No fire, just smoked and
melted.
I don't know about others that have had smoke in the cockpit, but I wasn't
interested in "isolating the problem." I just wanted on the ground --- now!
I think there's a whole bunch of pilots that would react just like I did.
Granted, some of you Chuck Yeagers would analyze and attempt to isolate the
problem while being annoyed with the smoke, but I'm here to tell you that
when/if smoke ever happens to you, no matter how macho you think you are,
it's gonna get your attention! I didn't panic --- but I sure felt panic. I
was scared, really, really scared.
Anyhow, I smile when I hear the uninitiated attempt to convince others that
electricity can be made failsafe.
Chuck Weyant
RV10 two months to first flight
| Quote: | Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> All of which shows you have no appreciation of what happens when you get
> electric smoke in the cockpit.
You could be right ... I've never had smoke in the cockpit.
> You don't just loose one item, unless you have a death wish. You kill the
> master. Period.
I disagree .... properly designed, an electrical system will contain the
'smoke' problem inside the 'black box. If you have smoke emanating
outside the boxes, then there's a design problem. The failure modes for
the wiring is usually unintentional grounding of a hot wire due to chafing
of the insulation or improper protection (ckt breaker) for the wiring.
Remember that ckt breakers protect the wiring, not the device connected to
it, and that proper sizing of the breaker is paramount.
> An MD-11 failed to do that, the crew couldn't get it on to an airfield
> quickly enough, and the aircraft was lost with all persons on board into
> the Atlantic.
Not familiar with it.
> You can gamble with isolating the problem, at your own peril.
> You don't have to justify your desired system to anyone but yourself. A
> little common sense will tell you to have at least two completely
> independent electric systems if you choose to operate IFR. No one is
> going to make you do it. Even with dual electrics, you don't solve the
> electrical fire scenario. Yes they are relatively rare. Is your life
> worth that gamble? Just food for thought.
Thanks, I like food!!!
Linn
do not archive
>
> linn Walters wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
>>> It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little component
>>> to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you are on the
>>> gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without risk of
>>> additional fire.
>> Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing you lose is
>> that little box.
>>> Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just don't lead others
>>> blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many electrical
>>> failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to totally rely
>>> on electrics.
>> You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the feeling you don't
>> know squat about "electrics".
|
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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Hi Chuck! Can't say I envy your experiences! I know you're not
referring to me ( uninitiated .... electricity can be made failsafe),
since in my career I've let a fair amount of the magic smoke escape, and
I've said that almost nothing in the modern world is failsafe. However,
it's been my experience that by the time you smell the magic smoke
(really unique smell, isn't it!) the problem is over, the offending unit
is dead or heavily impaired ..... and if properly wired .... the ckt
breaker or fuse is intact. And I agree with your assessment of 'until
it happens to you, you don't know how you'll really react'. On a couple
of occasions, I've reacted fairly well, thank you very much, but there
have been those times that I've walloped the hell out of that 'panic
button'. I call them educational experiences. I've learned from every one.
Linn
do not archive
PS .... converters change the voltage (12V down to 6V etc) and inverters
change the type (DC to AC).
Chuck Weyant wrote:
| Quote: |
I got to chime in here. I'm a retired air traffic controller. I've
experienced lots of emergencies in the tower cab throughout my career.
Worked a C97 with two engine fires to a successful landing, had a
Western Boeing720 trainer roll inverted, crash and explode near the
base of the tower, a Hughes Airwest and military F4 midair just north
of the airfield, and a Starduster Too auger in between the parallels
at Oakland, CA right in front of me. I even saved a drowning victim
at the lake one weekend when no one else would go in after the poor
sob. I felt I was one pretty cool dude and could handle just about
any emergency.
Then one day as my wife and I were heading for Laughlin, NV, I looked
down and there it was, a wisp of smoke from under the panel! I was
smack dab in the middle of a coastal mountain range with little or no
options but to slam off the master, declare an emergency and head back
to the airport ten minutes away. Smoke and smell went away. Turned
out to be an inverter (or converter, can't keep 'em straight) that
blew. No fire, just smoked and melted.
I don't know about others that have had smoke in the cockpit, but I
wasn't interested in "isolating the problem." I just wanted on the
ground --- now! I think there's a whole bunch of pilots that would
react just like I did. Granted, some of you Chuck Yeagers would
analyze and attempt to isolate the problem while being annoyed with
the smoke, but I'm here to tell you that when/if smoke ever happens to
you, no matter how macho you think you are, it's gonna get your
attention! I didn't panic --- but I sure felt panic. I was scared,
really, really scared.
Anyhow, I smile when I hear the uninitiated attempt to convince others
that electricity can be made failsafe.
Chuck Weyant
RV10 two months to first flight
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gmcjetpilot
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
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I'm late to the discussion but WET is the best IMHO. Of course you need air-oil sep. It will weigh more over all. Some claim oil migration can get to gyros and cause a problem. I have not seen that but I guess it could happen. There are ways to prevent that. The point is WET will last and not fail unexpectedly like DRY pumps.
New Dry pump designs look better than the traditional black can design? Just get a spruce AC catalog. I have not used a Vac pump in years with the EFIS. It's about money. Check the warranty.
If reliability is critical to you than plan preventative replacement. Dry pump works fine, but those vane's wear and get unstable when they get short, causing catastrophic failure. Do preventative maintence/inspections. The dry pumps are delicate and need to be handled carefully. Cooling is critical as is the overall installation. Restrictive fittings, hoses and improper or missing filters and regulators are sure fire ways to mess your pump up.
Educate your self on all the DO's and DON'T of installation and operation of any Vac pump. A lot of premature failures are due to abuse, installation error or operation issues.
[quote][b]
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