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Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off
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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

At 07:41 AM 12/16/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From what I remember of the story the refuelling crew were instructed to 

 put in a specific amount of fuel but instead filled the tanks.

I am not going to get into the question of whether Gann should have 

checked the amount. It is just the story as I remember it and its years 

since I read it.


	


I don't remember the details from when I read it, either, but also IIRC it 

was during wartime... when people often must do  things with a much lower 

margin of safety than they'd otherwise find acceptable.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Incidentally if you have never come across Ganns books I think his 

initials are D.W and there was at least one film derived from one of his 

stories.


	


Ernest K. Gann... all of his numerous flying books are worth reading.  He 

also wrote several sea stories but I haven't read any of those.



-Dana



--

  "The difference between death and taxes is death doesn't get worse every

time Congress meets." -- Will Rogers

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Ernest K. Gann.!



Of course. Stupid me. Senior moment. Thanks Dana



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

I'm sure you're talking about Ernest K. Gann,>>



Hi Russ,



quite right. Just me being thick.  The High and the Mighty was the film 

which I had in mind,.  Thanks for the list of books, there were a few there 

I hadn`t read.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Agreed.  If you haven't read it, do it. So real you will feel you are 

there.>>



Hi Robert,

I remember there was a passage in one book describing a flight into a fijord 

in Iceland(?)  during a transatlantic flight. Clag closed the top and the 

Airforce base was right at the inland  end . There were a couple of bad 

direction changes to be negotiated and the  it was straight into the 

airstrip with no room to turn round and try again. One try only.  It had me 

on the edge of my seat. great stuff.



thanks for putting me right on the initials, everybody



Pat

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Time: 12:15:56 PM PST US

From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Subject: Re: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  Quote: 	

I'd like to watch you demonstrate those maneuvers for me, as soon as I 

finish making double tie downs on my mkIII.

<

John,

I am some what puzzled by your cross wind problem.  I have thought about it 

a little and may be I can help out a little.

You have said you are self taught and I wonder if you are proficient at 

cross controlled flying especially side slipping?  I assume you are.

Not all Kolbs are the same and this includes your MKIIIC.  There are several 

changes that you have done to your plane that make it more yaw sensitive.  

First, you have moved your main gear forward.  This moves the cg further 

behind the main gear.  What you gained in nose over prevention you lost in 

making the plane more squirrelly in yaw on the ground.  To compound this you 

have added additional fuel capacity and weight.  If you do not have baffles 

in the tank, fuel sloshing while making a take off run in a gusty cross wind 

will cause yaw problems.

With your admitted aft cg and flying heavy, you will lose some roll 

authority at low speed, and this will reduce ones ability to hold the plane 

steady in gusty cross wind on take off.  VG's can help overcome this 

situation, in that, they will improve aileron effectiveness at low speed, 

and they will move the center of lift back from the cg.

A couple of other factors that can make your plane less ground yaw stable is 

incorrect toe in, camber and tire pressure.   If the toe in is not neutral 

and/or camber is not positive under load, the  plane will be squirrely on a 

gusty cross wind take off.  If you are running low pressure tires the 

rolling resistance is a function of the load, and so as the plane rocks from 

side to side it will want to turn in that direction.

For what it is worth.

Fly safe!

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Jack



I think you have misunderstood John's message. First let me assure you John 

and his plane are more than up to the task of handling the upper limits of 

any Kolb cross wind landing.



Two things. First, we all need to be very careful not to overstate the 

capabilities of our airplanes so that less experienced pilots will not try 

to handle weather they think is safe because someone has said it was safe. 

Second, less experienced pilots tend to over estimate the actual cross wind 

component that they have landed in.



I think we should follow John's lead in reporting accurate limits of our 

aircraft. Pounding our chests and stating "I can land in a higher cross 

wind" isn't a good thing to do here.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am some what puzzled by your cross wind problem.  I have thought about 

 it

 a little and may be I can help out a little.

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Jack B. Hart FF004


	




Hi Jack:



All aircraft have a ultimate cross wind component limit.  I don't know what 

Kolbs limits are, but probably around 15 mph in a direct cross wind.  After 

that there just ain't enough rudder to align the aircraft with the runway.



Landing is much more critical than takeoff in high cross wind conditions, 

probably because there is much less air moving over the rudder, and other 

flight controls, during landings.  I have found it helpful to use short 

burst of power to help align the aircraft just prior to and during touch 

down, especially on paved strips.  Grass and gravel strips are much more 

forgiving when touching down or taking off while crabbing.



If all cross winds were steady, it would make operating in them much easier. 

But, normally, they are not.  Gusty wind conditions play havoc on very light 

aircraft.  Many times we find ourselves, momentarily, in a "along for the 

ride" condition.



I find my modified Kolb as good or better handling rough air and cross winds 

than the standard Kolbs I fly.  Maintaining runway alignment during takeoffs 

is not a problem, normally.



I do a lot better negotiating rough air and cross winds the more I fly. 

Lately, I haven't been flying much.  In fact, I'm pushing three months since 

my last flight, returning from the Kolb Homecoming in Kentucky.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

vicsv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Jack

 That reminds me of another question, Pats brain  cramps are catching.

 I noticed while taxying with a cross wind if rudder  input was not enough, aileron in the opposite

 direction would bring it in line. Soooo how would  you (I) be able to keep a wing down into the x wind? 

 Vic

   [quote][b]

vicsv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Hey Jack,

 As a novice with 3.5 legal hrs. with Instructor and only 6 seconds of solo  I don't under stand Why you would crab into  the wind on take off if you  already weather vaned into it.

  

 "After it leaves the ground, you can let it weather vane into the wind,  level 

the wings and crab into the wind on climb out."

  

 How do you slip and crab simu, simul,  together?

  

  

 "If the wind blows you off, then you have to  decide whether to use a 

combination of side alip and a crab to get to the  runway, and at the last "

  

 Thanks in advance for the free  instruction.

 Vic



   [quote][b]

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Hi,



        IIRC, it was Narssarssuaq (sp?) in Greenland.  An ADF approach with 

4 or 5 heading changes, all the while descending with granite on both sides. 

Had to go in there about 10 years ago in a Cessna 421, fortunately it was 

VFR.  Quite the graveyard back in the day, I understand.



        BTW, why are we teaching folks to fly via the interweb?  My HP 

laptop doesn't do well in ground effect, so I leave the flight instructin' 

to the airdrome.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

Do not archive.

---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Narssarssuaq (sp?) in Greenland.>>



Yeah. Well I knew it was partway across the Atlantic



Thanks. Must 30 years since I read that book



Cheer



Pat

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Dana

Apparently Pat  hadn't found it in various posts, but of course he  

was Ernest K Gann; the Taj incident was before WW2 -- and ALL of his  

books are well worth reading. I'd recommend A HOSTAGE TO FORTUNE as a  

start.  I may even go back and re-read it; it's that good.

Merry Xmas,

Russ

do not archive



On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:20 PM, Dana Hague wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 07:41 AM 12/16/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



> From what I remember of the story the refuelling crew were  

> instructed to put in a specific amount of fuel but instead filled  

> the tanks.

> I am not going to get into the question of whether Gann should  

> have checked the amount. It is just the story as I remember it and  

> its years since I read it.



 I don't remember the details from when I read it, either, but also  

 IIRC it was during wartime... when people often must do  things  

 with a much lower margin of safety than they'd otherwise find  

 acceptable.



> Incidentally if you have never come across Ganns books I think his  

> initials are D.W and there was at least one film derived from one  

> of his stories.



 Ernest K. Gann... all of his numerous flying books are worth  

 reading.  He also wrote several sea stories but I haven't read any  

 of those.



 -Dana



 --

  "The difference between death and taxes is death doesn't get worse  

 every

 time Congress meets." -- Will Rogers

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Apparently Pat  hadn't found it in various posts, >>



Hi,

I found it. I found it, and every single person on the list told me what I 

was to old and stupid to remember.



Thanks everybody



Pat

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: Kolb Ultrastar: How to take-off

Pat

Pilots may be old, but they're never  stupid.

Otherwise they wouldn't get old

Merry Xmas to you!

do not archive

On Dec 19, 2008, at 11:29 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Apparently Pat  hadn't found it in various posts, >>



 Hi,

 I found it. I found it, and every single person on the list told me  

 what I was to old and stupid to remember.



 Thanks everybody



 Pat

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