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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

This really doesn't sound like a company trying to avoid an issue:



"Netherlands: At this point in time, Zenair is not allowed to inspect the

wreckage of the accident aircraft (we asked); it is locked up and under the

control of the Dutch aeronautical police and only the members of the Dutch

CAA and of the Dutch Safety Board are permitted to inspect it. Zenair will

make arrangements to carefully examine the aircraft remains as soon as

permission to do so is granted."



http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page360.htm

"For many owners of the presently grounded CH 601 XL in Europe, evidence of

progress with the current investigation has been disappointingly slim for

the last week. This is also the case for Zenair Europe. The response from

Dutch authorities to our repeated inquiries has been consistent: "The

investigation is on-going". Our offer to provide input has been politely

declined, as has our request to inspect the accident aircraft, as has our

offer to fly designer Chris Heintz to Holland to answer engineering

questions.  Other Civilian Aviation Authorities (CAA) have also attempted to

obtain additional details, to no avail."



http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page447.htm



And the LAA has written "The LAA has no reason to believe that the Zenair CH

601 XL wing is in any way structurally defective and, provided that the

aircraft is flown within the limitations defined in the aircraft's Flight

Manual, see no reason for it to fail."



http://www.zenairulm.com/News/pdfdocs/UKGrounding.pdf



-- Craig

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jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 04:05:33PM -0800, aerobat wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The reason  my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a

 An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a

 dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.


	


I'm really quite fond of mine, too. I'd damned well better be, since I'm on

the hook for over $133,000 for it.



Mine's N55ZC, and you can see pictures of me and it at the link in my

.signature below. What's yours?



 	  Quote: 	
		   The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know

 why.


	


I don't think there's a single person on here who doesn't want to know the

answer to that question. I certainly do.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering

 knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if

 they are worried about the wing then so am I.


	


Why should we believe you when you won't tell us who you are?



Why should I think the LAA has concerns? They're not saying anything in

public. Do you have insider information? How can we be sure your source is

credible?



 	  Quote: 	
		   I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss

 things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed

 on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.


	


An awful lot don't, too. What's the value of a rumor that's not backed up by

any kind of information that would allow us to evaluate its accuracy?



 	  Quote: 	
		   A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I

 want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.


	


Again, I doubt there's a single person on here who doesn't want to see a

fix, ASAP. I certainly do not have my head in the sand on the subject.



What I do have is a healthy respect for the aircraft and its design

limitations. I don't fly aerobatics in it. I don't do sudden maneuvers of

any kind in it. I don't exceed the limiting airspeeds, I keep it out of the

yellow arc except when the air is absolutely smooth, and I slow down to

maneuvering speed when I encounter any significant amount of turbulence.



Aviation is about risk management. It's not about risk elimination. We

cannot eliminate all risk, and believing to the contrary is wishful thinking

at best. I mitigate the risks of flying my airplane by staying within the

aircraft's limits and my own (and, as a 275-or-so-hour, non-instrument-

rated private pilot, those are quite significant). I do that to the best of

my ability, and I refuse to worry about the rest of it, because I cannot

change it.



It's known that there's no one common causal factor among the accidents.

There is NOTHING ELSE KNOWN. PERIOD. Anything else is RAWEST SPECULATION.



That's not head in the sand. It's a refusal to become paralyzed by risk.



 	  Quote: 	
		   If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received

 information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be

 sued for ?


	


And yet you think he'd IGNORE it in the light of that kind of liability?

Just what kind of COMPLETE F***ING IDIOT DO YOU THINK HE IS???!!!!



Get real. Better yet, tell us who the hell you are, or SHUT THE F*** UP!



I've had it with anonymous fearmongers.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL           http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

 	  rans6andrew wrote: 	
		  aerobat is the only poster in this thread whose location is in the text below his name on the left side of the page.  It says UK.  Sounds good enough for me. 	


I just noticed this one from looking at the thread on the Matronics web site. My location is clearly displayed below my name on the left, as well, and it's also in my signature when I post from email (which is nearly all of them). Just for the sake of completeness, KFRM is the municipal airport in Fairmont, Minnesota, a small town about 120 miles southwest of Minneapolis, just north of the Iowa border. That enough for you?

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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

Hi Jay

If you would like to talk about this, give me a call, 406-961-5342. I'll be 

gone to Missoula much of tomorrow. I'm home tonight, tomorrow morning until 

10 or so, and tomorrow evening.

Terry

At 08:01 PM 12/22/2008 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 04:05:33PM -0800, aerobat wrote:

 > The reason  my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a

 > An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a

 > dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.

I'm really quite fond of mine, too. I'd damned well better be, since I'm on

the hook for over $133,000 for it.

Mine's N55ZC, and you can see pictures of me and it at the link in my

.signature below. What's yours?

 > The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know

 > why.

I don't think there's a single person on here who doesn't want to know the

answer to that question. I certainly do.

 > I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering

 > knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if

 > they are worried about the wing then so am I.

Why should we believe you when you won't tell us who you are?

Why should I think the LAA has concerns? They're not saying anything in

public. Do you have insider information? How can we be sure your source is

credible?

 > I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss

 > things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed

 > on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.

An awful lot don't, too. What's the value of a rumor that's not backed up by

any kind of information that would allow us to evaluate its accuracy?

 > A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I

 > want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.

Again, I doubt there's a single person on here who doesn't want to see a

fix, ASAP. I certainly do not have my head in the sand on the subject.

What I do have is a healthy respect for the aircraft and its design

limitations. I don't fly aerobatics in it. I don't do sudden maneuvers of

any kind in it. I don't exceed the limiting airspeeds, I keep it out of the

yellow arc except when the air is absolutely smooth, and I slow down to

maneuvering speed when I encounter any significant amount of turbulence.

Aviation is about risk management. It's not about risk elimination. We

cannot eliminate all risk, and believing to the contrary is wishful thinking

at best. I mitigate the risks of flying my airplane by staying within the

aircraft's limits and my own (and, as a 275-or-so-hour, non-instrument-

rated private pilot, those are quite significant). I do that to the best of

my ability, and I refuse to worry about the rest of it, because I cannot

change it.

It's known that there's no one common causal factor among the accidents.

There is NOTHING ELSE KNOWN. PERIOD. Anything else is RAWEST SPECULATION.

That's not head in the sand. It's a refusal to become paralyzed by risk.

 > If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received

 > information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be

 > sued for ?

And yet you think he'd IGNORE it in the light of that kind of liability?

Just what kind of COMPLETE F***ING IDIOT DO YOU THINK HE IS???!!!!

Get real. Better yet, tell us who the hell you are, or SHUT THE F*** UP!

I've had it with anonymous fearmongers.

--

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL           http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

Desire..



denial isn't just a river in Australia... ?????????????? Don't you mean Egypt??



Chris 

Sydney AUSTRALIA..

Do not archive..

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Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: More on the XL grounding

..... yeah for the "niles" river. 





2008/12/23 chris Sinfield <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au (chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au)>

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au (chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au)>

  

 Desire..

 

 denial isn't just a river in Australia... ?????????????? Don't you mean Egypt??

 

 Chris

 Sydney AUSTRALIA..

 Do not archive..

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 20710#220710]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 20710#220710[/url]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

 Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300

  [quote][b]

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_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

alex_001

Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 61

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

When I ask Chip Erwin (CEO of CZAW) a while ago about if there are any possible problems about the CZAW build xl (after the accident in the US when a CZAW apperently lost its wings) he replied via mail to me if i have concerns i should install a BRS rescue system.

I found this answer a bit arrogant as i was looking for a technical answer.



BTW (i have BRS installed since new)



i also would like to get some facts on this issue because rumors are more damaging then helping.

flying a 601xl RTF CZAW  and also a happy owner that also would like to get some real answers on this hole issue, also in the interest of flying and also to have some answer for the future, as if you would like to sell a 601xl currently it is a bit difficult (because of the rumors and no confirmed facts)

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David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

By your same logic ... if it looks and smells like bull 5h1t, then it's bull 5h1t!



 	  aerobat wrote: 	
		  The reason  my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a Czech 601XL. 

An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.

The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know why.

I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if they are worried about the wing then so am I.

I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.

A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.

If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be sued for ?

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_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

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