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Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Some people have been suggesting that the hinged ailerons on the XL could in fact be a source of flutter. That being the case, I'm thinking about going back to the hingeless ailerons. Problem is, I've already made the hinged ailerons and now I'm wondering if there's an acceptable safe way to retrofit back to the original hingeless ailerons using the hinged design.



How would others here go about retrofitting. Would you just remake the ailerons, or perhaps just sandwich a piece of .016 in where the hinge goes? I'm guessing an overlap of maybe 3 or 4 rivets would be sufficient, that is, a strip of .016 the length of the aileron and about 100mm wide, 60mm or so that gets sandwiched in between the aileron top skin and the underlying ribs.



Just wondering if I can safely save myself some time and hassle and go back to a hingeless aileron without rebuilding them.



Thanks

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

To my knowledge no one has done that any way other than new ailerons. God only knows what adding another variable to the aileron would do and sort of defeat the purpose of using the original design.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Andy-

    Read what you just wrote. If you're not positive it's broke, don't fix 

it. You're trying to justify a band aid. If you're that worried about the 

aileron configuration, build new ones to plans and sleep well at night.

                                                                             

            Bill

                                              do not archive

---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Andy,

I doubt the fine difference between hinge less and hinged make the 

difference, as the hinge less isn't much of a damper until you've a 

considerable angle (ie large amplitude)

for flutter and that just doesn't seem plausible. Same goes for low 

tension cables with intermediate support that prevents that from happening.

I'd suggest you give it pause and wait for the obvious answers to 

surface as they must one day soon.



Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Some people have been suggesting that the hinged ailerons on the XL could in fact be a source of flutter. That being the case, I'm thinking about going back to the hingeless ailerons. Problem is, I've already made the hinged ailerons and now I'm wondering if there's an acceptable safe way to retrofit back to the original hingeless ailerons using the hinged design.



 How would others here go about retrofitting. Would you just remake the ailerons, or perhaps just sandwich a piece of .016 in where the hinge goes? I'm guessing an overlap of maybe 3 or 4 rivets would be sufficient, that is, a strip of .016 the length of the aileron and about 100mm wide, 60mm or so that gets sandwiched in between the aileron top skin and the underlying ribs.



 Just wondering if I can safely save myself some time and hassle and go back to a hingeless aileron without rebuilding them.



 Thanks



 --------

 Andy Shontz



 do not archive



 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21630#221630

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

I agree with Gig.  



However, your government publishes a book, AC-43.13-1B that shows Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair.  You might get some formula for the patch there.  You have a copy if you are using Kitlog under, Resources, Advisory Circulars.  I bought a printed copy from Jeppsen, and find it quite handy to have around to answer some of the more obscure questions I have.



Myself, I'd just re-skin the ailerons.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

You might want to have an engineer look at this because the force on the  

rivets will increase. As I stated before the hingeless  require  the last and 

first rivets to  be A5. Making new ailerons  would be the best way. 

 

 

Just a question, if you are building a 601XL are the ailerons .016 or  .025 

thick?  Jerry of Ga.  DO NOT ARCHIVE

 

 

In a message dated 12/29/2008 11:27:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:






Some people have been suggesting that the  hinged ailerons on the XL could in 

fact be a source of flutter. That being the  case, I'm thinking about going 

back to the hingeless ailerons. Problem is,  I've already made the hinged 

ailerons and now I'm wondering if there's an  acceptable safe way to retrofit back 

to the original hingeless ailerons using  the hinged design.



How would others here go about retrofitting. Would  you just remake the 

ailerons, or perhaps just sandwich a piece of .016 in  where the hinge goes? I'm 

guessing an overlap of maybe 3 or 4 rivets would be  sufficient, that is, a 

strip of .016 the length of the aileron and about 100mm  wide, 60mm or so that 

gets sandwiched in between the aileron top skin and the  underlying ribs.



Just wondering if I can safely save myself some time  and hassle and go back 

to a hingeless aileron without rebuilding  them.



Thanks



--------

Andy  Shontz

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

That's a good question. Has anybody built their ailerons out of  

anything but .016? My plans call for .016, going to .025 would  

increase the mass of the skin by more than 56%. That could definitely  

effect the flutter margin.



On Dec 29, 2008, at 12:31 PM, Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Just a question, if you are building a 601XL are the ailerons .016  

 or .025 thick?  Jerry of Ga.  DO NOT ARCHIVE


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Andy,

 

 I have thought about that too.  I am going to replace my ailerons with ones that have balsa ribs and stringers, covered with silkspan and doped.  The hinge will be very thin teflon, super-glued to the aileron and the wing.  I will have a ten pound counterweight.  I will also change from cables to pushrod tubes.  In place of my wing leveler autopilot, I am going to install a hydraulic control booster.  That should just about fix this awful aileron flutter problem we have, don't you think?

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Definitely do not archive!

 

   

 

   

 

 --

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Well said, Larry.



This whole debate reminds me of a typical episode of House, where all sorts of cures are tried prior to the disease being truly identified and isolated. Aileron flutter, compounded by the FSW of the Zodiac, has been among the hot topics lately but the issue still remains without any sort of definitive confirmation.



Don't get me wrong, I'm just as curious as everyone else about this. It just seems to me that we've become so desperate for a "cure", that we're willing to completely rebuild certain parts of the airframe, even without knowing if it will address a suspected problem supported by little more than speculation. Intellegent and informed speculation, yes, but speculation nonetheless.



I'm not even suggesting that we don't discuss the issue, I think it's healthy in the long run to compare notes and consider all possibilities. Sabrina's aerodynamic insight has me in awe. (Why don't MY kids think this way?!)



Unless I've missed something along the way, I don't think there's been a single case of flutter reported when aileron cable tensions were anywhere near the ballpark of what's specified. And replacing outboard aluminum rivets with stainless certainly couldn't hurt (unless it potentially starts corrosion from dissimilar metals - get out the can of ACF!). But reskinning and/or replacing hinges with new top skins?



I think I'll watch this one from the bench, and hope that the powers that be come up with something definitive. Just my $0.02.



Rick Lindstrom

N42KP Zenvair 601 XL



do not archive



--

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Jay! What?! No servo tabs?!



I'm surprised at you.



Rick (rofl)



do not archive



--

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

I know this question has come up before, but I must have missed the answer. What is the ratio between piano hinged and hingeless ailerons in the seven aircraft that have had inflight break-ups? 



Do not Archive



Terry Turnquist

601XL-Plans



jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:[quote]   Andy,

 

 I have thought about that too.  I am going to replace my ailerons with ones that have balsa ribs and stringers, covered with silkspan and doped.  The hinge will be very thin teflon, super-glued to the aileron and the wing.  I will have a ten pound counterweight.  I will also change from cables to pushrod tubes.  In place of my wing leveler autopilot, I am going to install a hydraulic control booster.  That should just about fix this awful aileron flutter problem we have,  don't you think?

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Definitely do not archive!

 

   

 

   

 

 --

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Ron, yes, I have that book. Invaluable resource, however, it's a little hard to look this one up though (lol) but I know what you're saying. Just from eyeball engineering, I'd guess that a strip like I'm suggesting would actually be stronger than the hinge, simply because the hinge connects to the aileron via one row of rivets, same with the hinge connection to the wing. With standard hingeless ailerons, the weak link is still the single row of rivets in the rear spar.



Larry, I'm not too concerned about the hinges, just wondering out loud. It's not a big deal to completely remake them if I decide to go that route. It's not a priority at all. 



As far as whoever it was that commented about the .016 vs .025. If memory serves correctly, I believe the ailerons are .016 skins and the flaps are .025 skins.



Just in case anyone is wondering, yes, I' back to working on my plane. Need to update my online log. My wife had our first baby and I spent a lot of time over the spring and summer doing some house projects while waiting for more light to be shed on this "XL thing".



 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  I agree with Gig.  



However, your government publishes a book, AC-43.13-1B that shows Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair.  You might get some formula for the patch there.  You have a copy if you are using Kitlog under, Resources, Advisory Circulars.  I bought a printed copy from Jeppsen, and find it quite handy to have around to answer some of the more obscure questions I have.



Myself, I'd just re-skin the ailerons.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Rick,  You haven't been paying attention.  Aileron servos ADD to the awful flutter problem!

 

 Jay

 

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

While a thicker skin in the hinge will increase the resistance (stick force/degree of movement), a thicker "hinge" will directly affect the fatigue life of the hinge. Somewhere CH even said so. They did quite a bit of testing to try and predict the fatigue life of the hinge and even went so far as to notch the ends of the hinge to get a crack to start - with no success. The original gage is what was tested for crack development over time/cycles, deviating is another risk; this is another place where the intuitive reaction is not safe.



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote:

[quote]From: Bryan Martin           [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Hinged:Hingeless  Either 6:1 or 7:0  Nobody's sure about one of the accident aircraft.



 	  ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  I know this question has come up before, but I must have missed the answer. What is the ratio between piano hinged and hingeless ailerons in the seven aircraft that have had inflight break-ups? 



Do not Archive



Terry Turnquist

601XL-Plans

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Rick

 	  Quote: 	
		  ! What?! No anti-servo tabs?!I'm surprised at you.Jay, you rock! 	


David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 1:15 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Rick Lindstrom

<tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>



Jay! What?! No servo tabs?!



I'm surprised at you.



Rick (rofl)



do not archive



--

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Jay! NO NO NO!!



It's the ANTI-servo tab that's the BAD cop!



The SERVO tab is the GOOD cop!



Or is it the other way around?



See? I HAVE been paying attention. Mostly.



rick



do not archive



--

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Rick,

 

 GREAT comeback!

 

 Looks like I started something and now I've got a highly intellectual "tiger by the tail."  I really don't know why I get these things, these debates started.  I guess the mainstream discussion of this particular issue is just getting a bit worn out and tiresome for me.  

 So I take the High Road. (;>)

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Thank goodness every one has added "do not archive"

 

   

 

   

 

 --

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons

Try placing your hand at each end of the aileron and push down with one hand and pull up with the other. There is a lot of give in a hingeless that's not there in a hinged. Would this allow the hingeless to osculate more or would it allow the hingeless to osculate less in a flutter condition? Nobody knows.



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  Some people have been suggesting that the hinged ailerons on the XL could in fact be a source of flutter. That being the case, I'm thinking about going back to the hingeless ailerons.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

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